Pascal's Wager Revisited

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I’m not blaming anyone for anything. I’m just saying that either God does not exist, or he exists and doesn’t want me to believe in him. There is a third possibility that I am like Paul still on the road to Damascus.

My point is that they are not really my terms. If God exists, then I have been created by God to be the way I am and to require a certain level of evidence in support of my beliefs. If I am to believe the Bible and the stories that other people tell about their conversions, then God has provided such evidence without any leap of faith to the likes of Paul and others.

Best,
Leela
You were not born in a vacuum. Every human has the intitial capacity to believe. Events and learning cause doubts. Doubts that you think only can be satisfied intellectually. That won’t happen. The Catholic faith is tactile. It touches all the senses. Conversion of the heart is important. Faith is pening ones heart and mind to God.
 
  1. Pascal’s Wager is a false dichotomy. It presumes that there are only two options (“God exists or God does not exist”) when in fact there are more than two – either gods do not exist, or the Christian god exists, or the Hindu gods exist, or the Zoroastrian gods exist, or the Greek gods exist, or the Norse gods exist, etc.
I think your right that the wager fails on the basis of presenting hell as a principle upon which to base belief. The pascal wager is dealing specifically with the Christian God and the benefits that come from that particular belief. But while its true that there are other religious concepts of hell, the main thrust of the arguments still remains. Based purely on the limited criteria of the main argument, belief is more reasonable then unbelief. And as for the other religious concepts; that is just a matter of figuring out which one is more reasonable to believe in.
Just because you avoid one hell (the Christian hell) doesn’t mean that you have avoided all possible hells – for example, if the Norse gods turn out to be real, all Christians will wind up in Nifilheim (unless, of course, you died in battle for the glory of the gods).
Thats possible; however you assume that other religions are just as reasonable as a belief in the Christian God. Secondly, the wager assumes that Christianity is more reasonable then other beliefs. In any case, why believe that your life has no objective, purpose, value meaning or moral value?
  1. Pascal’s Wager assumes that the religious person loses nothing if god is not real – this is false. If god is not real, then every moment of this precious life spent worshiping that false god was essentially wasted and not spent doing practical things to better this life.
Losing out on a finite life full of pleasure is nothing compared to losing an eternity of heaven. And if you die, and there is nothing; you are not going to know anything about it; therefore there is no opportunity for disappointment. But you would be disappointed if you find out that there is a heaven and a hell. You would have truly wasted your life then.

Therefore your argument will only appeal to someone who sees life as an opportunity for exploitation and self gratification. If you percieve God as getting in the way of your life’s agenda, then i can understand why somebody would like your argument. In that respect, somebody might rather take the chance that there was no God. No responsibility accept on to ones self. In other words you would have to be shallow in order to find it appealing. A deep thinker, who truly values his or her person, would have a great value for the concept of God, since it is God that gives life an objective purpose, meaning and moral value. Some people are not happy with just existing. Such a person would be willing to make sacrifices in order to obtain these invaluable realities.
  1. Pascal’s Wager assumes that belief can be willed. In fact, belief is not subject to the will in the simple sense – i.e. I can’t will myself to believe something that I find absurd intellectually.
I agree. Logically speaking, I can’t believe that the world popped out of nothing or ultimately existed for no reason for an infinite period of time. The world appears to me as if it was designed for a purpose; therefore i have faith that this is true.
Generally speaking, “belief” is a word for being convinced that a proposition is true.
True, but putting hope and faith into something does not fall under the definition of belief that you are claiming to be held by pascal. Your criticism is therefore not relevant.
I haven’t been convinced that those things are true.
Neither have I; since none of these concepts can be inferred logically by the world we live in.
Even if there were only two options in this question, and even if I judged one option to be the “safe bet,” I could not will myself to believe it if I hadn’t been convinced of it.
According the straw man definition that you are applying to pascals argument, i would have to agree with you. But since belief does not necessarily have to be defined in the same way that you are a defining it, it is not necessary for me to agree. In any case, i think you refuse to believe in God, because you don’t like the idea of God. Its got nothing to do with reason.
In short, I think Pascal’s Wager is deeply flawed.
I wouldn’t say its deeply flawed. I think, based on the criteria of the bet, that heaven would be the most reasonable choice. But as a basis for belief, in its present form, i would agree that its not very good reason to believe. I believe that one can make a better argument if change some of it. But i won’t get in to that now.
 
I’m not blaming anyone for anything. I’m just saying that either God does not exist, or he exists and doesn’t want me to believe in him. There is a third possibility that I am like Paul still on the road to Damascus.

My point is that they are not really my terms. If God exists, then I have been created by God to be the way I am and to require a certain level of evidence in support of my beliefs. If I am to believe the Bible and the stories that other people tell about their conversions, then God has provided such evidence without any leap of faith to the likes of Paul and others.

Best,
Leela
I think that we have been horribly mislead by the anthropomorphisation of a godhead. For ease of story-telling and history-making, cultures and ethnic groups have been drawn into describing G-D or (some symbol which is neutral) as a person (for we are made in His image, therefore He looks like us). He talks to us, interacts with us, has snitfits with us, and presents rules and commandments, the Old and the New Covenants.

Many of us started with the image of The God on the Golden Throne, but have moved substantially past that. The question remains however: if God is not a Being personified, what is G-D (or some symbol which is neutral)?

To some, it is quite clear that G-D does not intervene in the order of the natural or material world: apples do not fall up; tsunamis and earthquakes and wildfires do not suddenly disappear.

It is possible to posit that - even if there is a G-d, neither is there ‘divine’ intervention in the social, political and economic affairs of humans, and that in fact they were ‘given’ whatever skills and capacities were required in order to get on with the job of ameliorating the disasters that frequently visit the planet, creating a more equitable quality of life for all, setting the foundation for a moral global community. Perhaps these so-called capacities have not evolved fast enough to keep up with the need for disaster management and social responsibility - there are signs that human evolution is speeding up, thank God.

This all implies of course that there can be no answer to prayer for a safe journey to X, or good resuts on an examination, or a good outcome in the national elections.

Nor is there any scientific evidence for miracles (pace) regardless of the fact that we Catholics assume that there are at least 10 million miracles each day as bread and wine are transubstantiated.

Wrt intervention, however, it is quite possible that we do not recognise any evidence of G-d’s intervention because we do not know what we are looking for, or in which direction to look (chaos theory).

My Bishop says it is all a Mystery, part of the divine plan which we cannot know as it is infinite and therefore unknowable.

In Christ,
 
I’m not overly interested in word games; I use the common definition for words. In this case, the common definition for miracle is the one I’m using: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs. You have your own (re)definition of the term which makes miracles impossible - by definition.
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greylorn:
It goes to the definition of what a miracle actually is. I stand by my claim that what we perceive as miracles are merely more flicks of a Zippo.
Ender:
You are correct. It is intellectually dishonest to argue with one’s personal definition of words, yet that’s exactly what I did. I apologize to every thread participant for the error, and thank you for the correction.
 
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MegaTherion:
  1. Pascal’s Wager assumes that belief can be willed. In fact, belief is not subject to the will in the simple sense – i.e. I can’t will myself to believe something that I find absurd intellectually.
I wonder if you believe in Darwinian evolution, or Big Bang theory, or string theory, or Keynesian economics. If so, you might want to figure out how you’ve managed to will yourself to believe in something which is logically absurd.
 
There is a third possibility that I am like Paul still on the road to Damascus.
Just so. Let me add that belief is not a feeling, it is a decision, a commitment, which for many is a leap of faith they are unprepared to take. To that I can only repeat what Augustine said: “Do not seek to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may come to understand.”

Ender
 
It is intellectually dishonest to argue with one’s personal definition of words, yet that’s exactly what I did. I apologize to every thread participant for the error, and thank you for the correction.
Religious teachings promulgated by the Church have gradually transformed God from the pure spirit worshiped by the Hebrews into a bearded old man wearing a white robe, or a towel to conceal---- what?
I am struggling to reconcile these statements. The first one shows a person honest enough to look at an issue and come to a conclusion based on facts. The second one … doesn’t. There are many valid reasons for doubting - nor does belief eliminate doubt - or rejecting the Church, but the church you reject bears no relation to the one in which we believe. If your beliefs are valid they should surely be able to stand up to real Catholicism and not just a caricature of it.

Ender
 
I am struggling to reconcile these statements. The first one shows a person honest enough to look at an issue and come to a conclusion based on facts. The second one … doesn’t. There are many valid reasons for doubting - nor does belief eliminate doubt - or rejecting the Church, but the church you reject bears no relation to the one in which we believe. If your beliefs are valid they should surely be able to stand up to real Catholicism and not just a caricature of it.

Ender
Yours is a pertinent and poignant question. I can only scratch at the surface of an answer here. You may have skimmed enough of my website to understand why.

A brief trip into personal history: Upon entering a university to study physics I was a super-devout Catholic with 12 years of Catholic schooling. I’d considered becoming a priest until I discovered girls and science, and do not know which persuaded otherwise. Probably girls.

I’d been warned about intellectual threats to my faith, and decided to take no philosophy classes, keeping this resolve until my first pseudo-philosophy book was published. But I found physics and mathematics to be compelling applications of logic— perhaps the onset of an eventual seduction from faith.

The first step in my turning from Catholicism came in a dormitory discussion between self and the only avowed atheist in our building, an argument which filled my dorm room and clogged the hallway, which I was congratulated by fellow Christians for “winning.” I did not sleep that night, because I had not won. The young man had asked a question which I’d personally wondered about but never articulated or brought to question: Why did an omnipotent God create man? This topic engaged us and a few other participants for hours, and I “won” by pretty much b.s’ing my way around it. But when our housefellow broke up the conversation because he couldn’t sleep on the floor above, I was left uncertain and troubled. My faith had been shaken for the first time.

At about 4 in the morning I realized that the only way to answer the atheist’s question was not to take it in the context of his argument, which was to utilize the absurdity of the creation of humans as proof against the existence of God, but to conclude that God created everything in the universe except the human “soul.” From there it was a simple matter to devise a more complete theory which defines God and soul in the context of physics.

Several years later I gathered my ideas into a 20-page paper and presented it to the Church, hoping that men more educated and intelligent than I could get about the job of fleshing out these ideas and finding, perhaps, a new balance between faith and physics. Pretty much what Galileo had tried to do a few centuries back. I was happy that the Inquisition had been formally disbanded.

The CAF is a recent discovery for me, and I’ve been using it to explore the real nature of Catholicism today. I find that the powerful philosophical core which had attracted me as a youth is like the vestigial tail at the base of our spines, and that the Church has degenerated into mindless symbolism. Ideas which I once found profound, which I once freely discussed with my teachers, seem to be unimportant today. Perhaps this is because my Norbertine teachers were more special than I realized at the time, and have not been replaced.

I realize that the symbols and rituals and dogma have always been there to keep the masses happy, but now I find little else. All interesting questions about the relationship between theology and physics are resolved by reference to dogma. Just like in the 17th century. This saddens me, for at the core of my mind, I love the Church. I’m sure that this is an emotional imprint, like loving a parent, or the Lombardi era Packers, and that I may get over it.

At the center of my ideas is the opinion that the physical universe is a far more certain truth than any written words of mankind. The universe is the only Bible certain to have been written by God, if, as I believe, there is such an entity. The Catholic Bible is only certain to have been written by men, and certified to have been God-inspired— but who did the certification?

I am surprised that you find my use of the Church’s own images to be incorrect or inappropriate, or however negative you find them. Physical images of a non-physical God are commonplace in Catholic lore, and accepted by the Church. It seems to me that by allowing such images, the Church has drawn its own caricatures.

A few centuries ago Galileo tried unsuccessfully to assist his beloved Church into the 17th century. A half century ago I tried to point it in the direction of the 20th century. I’ll die trying to drag it, kicking and whining, and any members who want to believe in both God and physics, into the 21st century.

Re: your remark, “…the one in which we believe.” (Italics mine.) On this site I’ve been fortunate to find a few individuals capable of recognizing a valid point and addressing it reasonably and logically. “Few” is the operative word. The philosophy section of CAF is the most engaging of all, but most of its participants ignore serious questions or reply by parroting scripture or dogma. So, who exactly represents the “we” in your statement?

The Lone Ranger and Tonto found themselves stuck in a blind canyon, surrounded by Indians… Remember that old joke, Kemosaby?​

Ultimately, I’d rather that my ideas stand alongside Catholicism, rather than stand up to it.
 
I am struggling to reconcile these statements. The first one shows a person honest enough to look at an issue and come to a conclusion based on facts. The second one … doesn’t. There are many valid reasons for doubting - nor does belief eliminate doubt - or rejecting the Church, but the church you reject bears no relation to the one in which we believe. If your beliefs are valid they should surely be able to stand up to real Catholicism and not just a caricature of it.

Ender
Yours is a pertinent and poignant question. I can only scratch at the surface of an answer here. You may have skimmed enough of my website to understand why.

A brief trip into personal history: Upon entering a university to study physics I was a super-devout Catholic with 12 years of Catholic schooling. I’d considered becoming a priest until I discovered girls and science, and do not know which persuaded otherwise. Probably girls.

I’d been warned about intellectual threats to my faith, and decided to take no philosophy classes, keeping this resolve until my first pseudo-philosophy book was published. But I found physics and mathematics to be compelling applications of logic— perhaps the onset of an eventual seduction from faith.

The first step in my turning from Catholicism came in a dormitory discussion between self and the only avowed atheist in our building, an argument which filled my dorm room and clogged the hallway, which I was congratulated by fellow Christians for “winning.” I did not sleep that night, because I had not won. The young man had asked a question which I’d personally wondered about but never articulated or brought to question: Why did an omnipotent God create man? This topic engaged us and a few other participants for hours, and I “won” by pretty much b.s’ing my way around it. But when our housefellow broke up the conversation because he couldn’t sleep on the floor above, I was left uncertain and troubled. My faith had been shaken for the first time.

At about 4 in the morning I realized that the only way to answer the atheist’s question was not to take it in the context of his argument, which was to utilize the absurdity of the creation of humans as proof against the existence of God, but to conclude that God created everything in the universe except the human “soul.” From there it was a simple matter to devise a more complete theory which defines God and soul in the context of physics.

Several years later I gathered my ideas into a 20-page paper and presented it to the Church, hoping that men more educated and intelligent than I could get about the job of fleshing out these ideas and finding, perhaps, a new balance between faith and physics. Pretty much what Galileo had tried to do a few centuries back. I was happy that the Inquisition had been formally disbanded.

The CAF is a recent discovery for me, and I’ve been using it to explore the real nature of Catholicism today. I find that the powerful philosophical core which had attracted me as a youth is like the vestigial tail at the base of our spines, and that the Church has degenerated into mindless symbolism. Ideas which I once found profound, which I once freely discussed with my teachers, seem to be unimportant today. Perhaps this is because my Norbertine teachers were more special than I realized at the time, and have not been replaced.

I realize that the symbols and rituals and dogma have always been there to keep the masses happy, but now I find little else. All interesting questions about the relationship between theology and physics are resolved by reference to dogma. Just like in the 17th century. This saddens me, for at the core of my mind, I love the Church. I’m sure that this is an emotional imprint, like loving a parent, or the Lombardi era Packers, and that I may get over it.

At the center of my ideas is the opinion that the physical universe is a far more certain truth than any written words of mankind. The universe is the only Bible certain to have been written by God, if, as I believe, there is such an entity. The Catholic Bible is only certain to have been written by men, and certified to have been God-inspired— but who did the certification?

I am surprised that you find my use of the Church’s own images to be incorrect or inappropriate, or however negative you find them. Physical images of a non-physical God are commonplace in Catholic lore, and accepted by the Church. It seems to me that by allowing such images, the Church has drawn its own caricatures.

A few centuries ago Galileo tried unsuccessfully to assist his beloved Church into the 17th century. A half century ago I tried to point it in the direction of the 20th century. I’ll die trying to drag it, kicking and whining, and any members who want to believe in both God and physics, into the 21st century.

Re: your remark, “…the one in which we believe.” (Italics mine.) On this site I’ve been fortunate to find three individuals capable of recognizing a valid point and addressing it reasonably and logically. The philosophy section of CAF is the most engaging of all, but most of its participants ignore serious questions or reply by parroting scripture or dogma. So, who exactly represents the “we” in your statement?

The Lone Ranger and Tonto found themselves stuck in a blind canyon, surrounded by Indians… Remember that old joke, Kemosaby?​

Ultimately, I’d rather that my ideas stand alongside Catholicism, rather than stand up to it.
 
Why did an omnipotent God create man?
This could be fun to pursue but is probably too far off topic, still, before addressing it, wouldn’t it first be necessary to address whether God created man?
My faith had been shaken for the first time.
This is not surprising. That’s happened to a lot of us. I will point out though that not being able to answer such a serious question is no proof that an answer does not exist. I undertake the study of Catholicism now as I undertook the study of chemistry in college: truth can be learned, it requires work, but work is no guarantee of success. I am no more discomfited by those theological questions I cannot answer now as I was by the chemistry questions I could not answer then (except as they affected my grades) as my ignorance is no measure of truth.
Pretty much what Galileo had tried to do a few centuries back. I was happy that the Inquisition had been formally disbanded.
Two persistent myths. So many topics, so little time.
the Church has degenerated into mindless symbolism. Ideas which I once found profound, which I once freely discussed with my teachers, seem to be unimportant today. Perhaps this is because my Norbertine teachers were more special than I realized at the time, and have not been replaced.
There are some very learned people within the Church but most … aren’t. Information is available, however, if you look for it. Aquinas is certainly a good source.
I realize that the symbols and rituals and dogma have always been there to keep the masses happy, but now I find little else.
Now, now - start the battles you really want to fight; don’t just fling rhetorical bombs at random.
The Catholic Bible is only certain to have been written by men, and certified to have been God-inspired— but who did the certification?
Yes, well - perhaps the answer to your first question would also answer this one.
Physical images of a non-physical God are commonplace in Catholic lore, and accepted by the Church. It seems to me that by allowing such images, the Church has drawn its own caricatures.
The Church distinguishes between a symbol and the thing it symbolizes. Even children understand that the Holy Spirit is really not a dove.
So, who exactly represents the “we” in your statement?
“We” is the Church.

Ender
 
I’m not saying that we ought to have proof. I’ve never said that. What do we have definitive proof of? I’d just like to see some far less ambiguous evidence. I’m just saying that if God exists, then he created me to desire much stronger evidence for God’s existence than he presents me with, and that he must know that and decides not to present such evidence. Your comment about God preferring to remain anonymous is exactly what I’ve been saying. If God exists he is apparently choosing not to present the sort of evidence that he knows I would find convincing. I can only presume it is because if God exists, God does not want me to believe in him.

Best,
Leela
If God wants you to love your neighbor why didn’t he make your neighbor more lovable? If God wants you to avoid sin why didn’t he remove all temptation? If God wants us to be happy why didn’t he make us incapable of other emotions?

God may not give us full answers to many of these questions. However like I said in my first post a rational person does not think answers to these questions are nearly as important as getting an answer to the question - “What should I do?” Just because you can ask questions about God that we can not fully answer doesn’t mean you are justified in not believing him. Understand that line of thought is a non sequitur. As is your line of thinking that just because you do not believe in God that therefore God must not want you to believe in him. Both lines of thought are illogical.
 
If God exists he is apparently choosing not to present the sort of evidence that he knows I would find convincing. I can only presume it is because if God exists, God does not want me to believe in him.

God has provided evidence that you should find convincing. But you are looking for it with your head rather than with your heart. As Pascal says, the heart has reasons that reason cannot fathom. Closing the heart to God means closing reason as well. The heart trumps reason. Love trumps logic.

We cannot begin to know God until we begin to love Him. That is an argument the atheist refuses to grasp. And love of God does not begin until hope begins, another lesson the atheist refuses to grasp.
 
Greylorn I would encourage you to learn philosophy especially epistemology. If you study the skeptics arguments well you will learn that yes even scientific knowledge is either based on beliefs that have no basis themselves or based on circularity. This alone does not make them untrue. They can and likely are still true. However by forgoing the study of philosophy you missed out on the broader perspective of what science is.
 
If God wants you to love your neighbor why didn’t he make your neighbor more lovable? If God wants you to avoid sin why didn’t he remove all temptation? If God wants us to be happy why didn’t he make us incapable of other emotions?

God may not give us full answers to many of these questions. However like I said in my first post a rational person does not think answers to these questions are nearly as important as getting an answer to the question - “What should I do?” Just because you can ask questions about God that we can not fully answer doesn’t mean you are justified in not believing him. Understand that line of thought is a non sequitur. As is your line of thinking that just because you do not believe in God that therefore God must not want you to believe in him. Both lines of thought are illogical.
I agree wholeheartedly that “what should I do?” is a more fundamental question in life that “what should I believe?” Beliefs are mental constructs that evolved later than the actions that they motivate. Beliefs are habits of action rather than prerequisites for action. Human beings found food and shelter, had sex, cooperated and fought one another, and raised children long before they had any need to create language let alone religion or gods.

What I have been saying in general on this forum is a reaction against the idea that belief or disbelief in God or gods is fundamental to human existence. You are saying that my line of thought in why God must not care whether I believe in him is a non sequitur, but it is not MY line of thought. These sorts of thoughts that you think are illogical are what follows when you begin with the idea that whether or not God exists is an interesting question. My position is not “atheism” but rather that we’d be better off if we stopped playing this God/no gods game. In arguing my position, I am just taking the theistic line of thinking to its illogical conclusions.

Best,
Leela
 
If God exists he is apparently choosing not to present the sort of evidence that he knows I would find convincing. I can only presume it is because if God exists, God does not want me to believe in him.

God has provided evidence that you should find convincing. But you are looking for it with your head rather than with your heart. As Pascal says, the heart has reasons that reason cannot fathom. Closing the heart to God means closing reason as well. The heart trumps reason. Love trumps logic.

We cannot begin to know God until we begin to love Him. That is an argument the atheist refuses to grasp. And love of God does not begin until hope begins, another lesson the atheist refuses to grasp.
I don’t refuse to grasp what you are saying. I tried to understand it, but what you are saying above (looking with my heart not my head) is meaningless to me.

Best,
Leela
 
Beliefs are mental constructs that evolved later than the actions that they motivate. Beliefs are habits of action rather than prerequisites for action. Human beings found food and shelter, had sex, cooperated and fought one another, and raised children long before they had any need to create language let alone religion or gods.

So what you are saying is that language and religion are later products of evolution? Then doesn’t that put them higher on the scale of evolution? Why is language good and religion bad if both are discoveries that make man more “human” than bestial (food, shelter, sex oriented)?

Here is Jefferson’s response to the atheist view, which he regarded as going against “human” nature.

"The argument which they (atheists) rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is that, in every hypothesis of cosmogony, you must admit an eternal pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy, you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will suffice. They say, then, that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may forever go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or creator of the world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend.

On the contrary, I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe in its parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and infinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance centrifugal and centripetal forces, the structure of our earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters, and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, the generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is, in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regenerator into new and other forms. We see too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in its course and order. Stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come into view, comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and planets and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals are become extinct; and, were there no restoring power, all existences might extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a shapeless chaos. So irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful Agent that, of the infinite members of man who have existed through all time, they have believed in the proportion of a million at least to Unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a creator, rather than in that of a self-existent Universe. Surely this unanimous sentiment renders this more probable than that of the few in the other hypothesis.”
 
I don’t refuse to grasp what you are saying. I tried to understand it, but what you are saying above (looking with my heart not my head) is meaningless to me.

Let me put it this way: we never really know anyone until we begin to love that person, until we open our hearts to that person. Then all kinds of insights follow. Very often the one we love opens up to us with honesty and generosity far beyond what we could have imagined. So yes, the heart is a doorway to knowledge … and to the knowledge of God as well as each other. When we leave that door closed, when we refuse to open it, when we slam it in God’s face, we get just about as much knowledge of God as we deserve … zero.
 
Beliefs are mental constructs that evolved later than the actions that they motivate. Beliefs are habits of action rather than prerequisites for action. Human beings found food and shelter, had sex, cooperated and fought one another, and raised children long before they had any need to create language let alone religion or gods.

So what you are saying is that language and religion are later products of evolution? Then doesn’t that put them higher on the scale of evolution? Why is language good and religion bad if both are discoveries that make man more “human” than bestial (food, shelter, sex oriented)?
We agree that as social patterns, religion and language are on a higher level of evolution that biological patterns. But intellectual patterns are on a higher level of evolution than social patterns.
Here is Jefferson’s response to the atheist view, which he regarded as going against “human” nature.

"The argument which they (atheists) rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is that, in every hypothesis of cosmogony, you must admit an eternal pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy, you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will suffice. They say, then, that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may forever go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or creator of the world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend.
Nicely said, Jefferson.
On the contrary, I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe in its parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and infinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance centrifugal and centripetal forces, the structure of our earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters, and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, the generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is, in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regenerator into new and other forms. We see too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in its course and order. Stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come into view, comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and planets and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals are become extinct; and, were there no restoring power, all existences might extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a shapeless chaos. So irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful Agent that, of the infinite members of man who have existed through all time, they have believed in the proportion of a million at least to Unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a creator, rather than in that of a self-existent Universe. Surely this unanimous sentiment renders this more probable than that of the few in the other hypothesis.”
The above from Jefferson, who was a Deist, sounds entirely liek what a thinking person would say who did not have Darwin’s work to explain evolution. He also sounds like he is talking about the God of Einstein (one that I have no quarrel with) rather than the God of Christianity.

Best,
Leela
 
He also sounds like he is talking about the God of Einstein (one that I have no quarrel with) rather than the God of Christianity.

Not really. Whatever may be said of Jefferson’s views when he was younger, by the time he was ready to die apparently something like what happened to Pascal happened to Jefferson… he found hope. He opened his heart to the Great Beyond, and during his last weeks wrote this poem to his daughter Martha:

*A Death Bed Advice from T.J. to M.R.

Life’s visions are vanished, its dreams are no more,
Dear friend of my bosom, why bathed in tears,
I go to my fathers, I welcome the shore,
Which crowns all my hopes or which buries my cares.

Then farewell my dear, my loved daughter adieu,
The last pang of life is parting from you.
Two seraphs await me long shrouded in death,
I will bear them your love on my last parting breath.*

The “two seraphs” cannot be other than Martha’s mother and her sister, who both died young. Apparently he expects to meet them again. Certainly doesn’t sound like Einstein to me.

Moreover, even if you argue that Jefferson was a deist in the intellectual tradition of his day, that doesn’t alter his repudiation of atheism. And the theory of evolution was not anything that would alter his view that “when we take a view of the Universe in its parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and infinite power in every atom of its composition.”

Not every evolutionist today thinks like Dawkins … that God is for children and imbeciles.

As Chesterton put it:

“If evolution destroys anything, it does not destroy religion but rationalism. If evolution simply means that a positive thing called an ape turned very slowly into a positive thing called a man, then it is stingless for the most orthodox; for a personal God might just as well do things slowly as quickly, especially if, like the Christian God, he were outside time.” from Orthodoxy
 
He also sounds like he is talking about the God of Einstein (one that I have no quarrel with) rather than the God of Christianity.

For the sake of clarifying, exactly what is the God of Einstein? Is he a God of Intelligent Design, as Jefferson seems to describe Him? “… it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of** design, consummate skill, and infinite power** in every atom of its composition.”
 
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