Pascal's Wager

[Jocko_VT]

In an amoral universe morality is a human invention. Bertrand Russell - who was no mean logician - wrote:

“We are ourselves the ultimate and irrefutable arbiters of value in the world… Nature is blind and sense has no values, it is we who create value, and our desires, which confer value. In this realm we are kings…”

And we love one another, which means we do not live in a loveless universe. And we have one another, which means we needn’t live lives of despair, even if we despair sometimes. That we are in the universe proves we do not live in an amoral universe, even if the laws of physics and chemistry do not necessarily result in a human morality. We are moral beings.

 

[ConstantinePX]

I dont think God wants you to believe in him simply to not go to hell as a get out of jail free card, imo. :knight2:

 

[PRmerger]

Did anyone try to get Christians to say that the mythical aspects were a lie?

Well, of course! The witnesses in the early Church were proclaiming, “We have seen Him!” and they were tortured and martyred for saying so.

If it were a lie, and they were merely part of a great big coverup: why did not a single person recant?

And for what reason would they promote this myth? What did it get them except torture and death?

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Pascal’s wager only becomes a concern if a person is a seeker and already decided that Christianity is credible–the wager is for that final “leap of faith”

 

[Jocko_VT]

Well, of course! The witnesses in the early Church were proclaiming, “We have seen Him!” and they were tortured and martyred for saying so.

If it were a lie, and they were merely part of a great big coverup: why did not a single person recant?

And for what reason would they promote this myth? What did it get them except torture and death?

I understand that they were martyred because they refused to deny their christianity, but did it actually have anything to do with their belief in miracles? In other words, while the miracles may have been essential to the martyr’s refusal to deny, was belief in the miracles essential to the persecutor? If so, point me to an example. I’ve been browsing through a few and don’t see any such thing yet. I really have no background with this particular historical period. Where were they killed specifically because they didn’t recant belief in the miracles as opposed to recanting their general belief or their denial of other beliefs? I’ve honestly never heard this before.

Lots of people have been martyred for various religious beliefs. It doesn’t say anything to me about the literal truth of the mythical aspects of the religions, though it says much to me about the spiritual truths. They would promote a “myth” because to people at the time, “myth” had a different meaning than it does to us today. They presumably felt they were dying for the truth–whether that truth had been expounded through myth I don’t think would have mattered to these people.

What is a good early history of the martyrdom/christian persecution outside the Bible? I should take a look at it.

 

[Jocko_VT]

Pascal’s wager only becomes a concern if a person is a seeker and already decided that Christianity is credible–the wager is for that final “leap of faith”

I agree with this. At that point, Pascal starts to make a whole lot of sense, doesn’t he!?!

 

[ConstantinePX]

I understand that they were martyred because they refused to deny their christianity, but did it actually have anything to do with their belief in miracles? In other words, while the miracles may have been essential to the martyr’s refusal to deny, was belief in the miracles essential to the persecutor? If so, point me to an example. I’ve been browsing through a few and don’t see any such thing yet. I really have no background with this particular historical period. Where were they killed specifically because they didn’t recant belief in the miracles as opposed to recanting their general belief or their denial of other beliefs? I’ve honestly never heard this before.

Lots of people have been martyred for various religious beliefs. It doesn’t say anything to me about the literal truth of the mythical aspects of the religions, though it says much to me about the spiritual truths. They would promote a “myth” because to people at the time, “myth” had a different meaning than it does to us today. They presumably felt they were dying for the truth–whether that truth had been expounded through myth I don’t think would have mattered to these people.

What is a good early history of the martyrdom/christian persecution outside the Bible? I should take a look at it.

The Roman Martyrology. Its official Church liturgy.

At its not in the bible. 99% of biblical events were documented and recorded by secular/pagan Roman and Greek historians. e.g. Tacitus.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Pascal’s wager only becomes a concern if a person is a seeker and already decided that Christianity is credible–the wager is for that final “leap of faith”

I can agree with that too.

 

[shoe]

www.godhatesfags.com is the web site of the Westboro church. If you want to see those images, just to a google image search of “god hates fags.” I assume you don’t want to see them! I agree–it’s wrong teaching, and these are extreme examples of crazy people.

Yes, it is wrong teaching. Christianity by definition represents the teachings of Jesus whose message was one of unconditional love, forgiveness, and humility. The message of Fred Phelps and his Westboro Church, which is made up largely of members of his family, is one of hate, blame, and arrogance. Therefore, by definition, Jim Phelps is not a Christian - even though the secular news media, who seem to know very little about the love, nature and truth of God, may think otherwise.

(Although it is deplorable that a handful of agitators will say and do morally reprehensible things in the name of God, I think that the news media’s saying or suggesting that the majority of Christians also do them shows a great lack of responsibility on their part.)

And so I say once again that of all the Christians I’ve known and met through the years, I never have seen a single one carrying a sign that reads “God Hates Fags!” - or carrying any similar sign. And I think that if I were to put forth a person as an example of what a true follower of Christ should be like, I would have chosen Pope Benedict XVI, certainly not Fred Phelps.

 

[PRmerger]

Pascal’s wager only becomes a concern if a person is a seeker and already decided that Christianity is credible–the wager is for that final “leap of faith”

Or, I add, it may be that very* first* step one takes to consider Belief.

Whatever–either as a final leap or as a first baby step, PW ought not stand alone.

And, indeed, it doesn’t.

I daresay there’s nary a Believer here who’s come to faith using PW alone. If they used PW at all, it was either as a final confirmation of that which they had already come to believe, or an intriguing concept that led them to pursue more.

 

[PRmerger]

And Jesus cures the sick, gives the blind sight, and raises the dead, and casts out demons, and walks on water, etc.

So here’s where I’m going to ask you to be honest: do you really read the Gospels, which include details of the above extra-ordinary phenomena, and feel you’re in the same genre as this type of story:

An odd, folkloric-sounding tale told about Apollonius involves the wedding of a former student of his, a young man called Menippus, who lived in Corinth. Menippus was about to marry a beautiful rich woman, whom he had first glimpsed in a vision. Apollonius was one of the guests at the feast and noticed that something about the bride was not right. After watching her carefully for a while he proclaimed that she was in fact a Lamia (a kind of vampire), and used his powers to make all the false luxuries of the banquet, including the guests disappear, thus showing them to be an hallucination constructed by the vampire-girl. After this act the disguise faded and the real Lamia was revealed. The Story of Apollonius of Tyana

I won’t judge you for your answer.

I simply am curious if you truly can look at a mythological vampire story and a Gospel narrative and not see the difference between the genres. To me, elements of a folktale are obvious; elements of historical accounts by witnesses are also obvious. But perhaps it’s true that I’m looking at the Gospels with the eyes of a cradle Catholic.

And, I will admit that if you say that you feel that they are indeed in the same genre I will be incredulous/doubtful/skeptical (slightly) but then I will take you at your word.

 

[PRmerger]

Then there is Scientology. That developed very quickly.

You might be also interested in reading about John Frumm and the Cargo Cults as well. These faiths popped up quickly.

The question, Watcher, is not whether false faiths/cults “popped up quickly”.

The question is: can you provide an example of a legend that developed (i.e. a mythical/heroic leader) around a living human person, within a generation after this figure’s death?

What mythical properties did the founder of Scientology possess that could otherwise have been proven false by his contemporaries?

As for Joseph Smith, the same. What do Mormons claim that he did that’s heroic, that could otherwise have been proven false by his contemporaries?

 

[PRmerger]

I think I’ve said before, even if the fantastic and miraculous in the Gospels is set aside as myth, Christianity is still a path of righteousness. The Sermon on the Mount does not depend on the miracles! It stands on its own.

Then, I fear Jocko, that you are not ready to marry your Bride. For while you like how she lives her life, you do not respect who she IS, and you don’t believe what she says about herself.

I suggest, though, that you continue to court her.

Again, Christianity is not about its ethics. The Sermon on the Mount is essentially the same as Buddha’s Dhammapada, Lao-tzu’s Tao-te-ching, Confucius’ Analects, the Bhagavad Gita, the Proverbs of Solomon, and the Dialogues of Plato.

The only reason to be Christian is, well, because you believe it’s true, not because it makes you a moral person. For one can be a good person and not be Christian.

 

[TheWatcher]

The question, Watcher, is not whether false faiths/cults “popped up quickly”.

The question is: can you provide an example of a legend that developed (i.e. a mythical/heroic leader) around a living human person, within a generation after this figure’s death?

What mythical properties did the founder of Scientology possess that could otherwise have been proven false by his contemporaries?

As for Joseph Smith, the same. What do Mormons claim that he did that’s heroic, that could otherwise have been proven false by his contemporaries?

In the case of John Frumm:
Real person: Likely an American soldier from World War II.
Natives believe that if they pray to him, he will come back. They believe he used magic to produce goods. They believe he is a powerful spirit. He lives in a volcano.

Scientology- I actually don’t know too much about it. I don’t know what type of role the founder, L Ron Hubbard, actually has in the mythology, if any.

Mormon- Joseph Smith could read writings off of stone tables that he stuck in his hat by the power of the holy spirit. His friend recorded what he dictated. His friends wife was doubtful; she stole (destroyed?) the first writings and so Joseph Smith was asked to reread the tablets. He was unable to and conveniently found new tablets to read with a very similar, but not exact, story.

Then you’ve all the rulers who were thought to be Gods- such as the Egyptian Pharaohs, Mesopotamian Kings, and even some Greeks, among others.

Dalai Lamas and Kumaris are both thought to be re-incarnations.

Specific people include Prince Phillip, who is thought of as a God in another cargo cult, Veleda, a seerer in a tower regarded as a goddess, and Antinous, the Roman face that you see everywhere.

If I recall correctly, some people even worshiped Mary, the mother of Jesus, as a goddess very early on.

 

[Jocko_VT]

And I think that if I were to put forth a person as an example of what a true follower of Christ should be like, I would have chosen Pope Benedict XVI, certainly not Fred Phelps.

This is kind of like the “no true Scotsman” argument. “Well, Phelps isn’t really a Christian. The Pope is a Christian.” It makes it hard to make the point.

I agree with your argument concerning atheists earlier, though. And I certainly prefer the Pope to Phelps, too!!

 

[Jocko_VT]

So here’s where I’m going to ask you to be honest: do you really read the Gospels, which include details of the above extra-ordinary phenomena, and feel you’re in the same genre as this type of story:

An odd, folkloric-sounding tale told about Apollonius involves the wedding of a former student of his, a young man called Menippus, who lived in Corinth. Menippus was about to marry a beautiful rich woman, whom he had first glimpsed in a vision. Apollonius was one of the guests at the feast and noticed that something about the bride was not right. After watching her carefully for a while he proclaimed that she was in fact a Lamia (a kind of vampire), and used his powers to make all the false luxuries of the banquet, including the guests disappear, thus showing them to be an hallucination constructed by the vampire-girl. After this act the disguise faded and the real Lamia was revealed. The Story of Apollonius of Tyana

I won’t judge you for your answer.

I simply am curious if you truly can look at a mythological vampire story and a Gospel narrative and not see the difference between the genres.

Yes, there are tremendous differences. And yes, there are tremendous similarities. You may be missing my point. We moderns are conditioned to see one thing as “folkloric-sounding” and another thing as not. However, if you take the Jesus miracles and put them in any other setting, they no longer seem reasonable.

So, I do see the difference. I also see the similarities, though.

To me, elements of a folktale are obvious; elements of historical accounts by witnesses are also obvious. But perhaps it’s true that I’m looking at the Gospels with the eyes of a cradle Catholic.

Not just a cradle catholic, but a modern westerner. When I look at the Gospels, I see the obvious elements too–and it looks like obvious elements of historical accounts *and *obvious elements of a “folktale,” or myth.

 

[Jocko_VT]

Then, I fear Jocko, that you are not ready to marry your Bride.

I suspect you’re correct.

So, when you said that some level of doubt was acceptable, what did you mean? What is it that may be doubted (albeit to a much more limited extent than I’m doubting)?

I suggest, though, that you continue to court her.

I suspect this will become difficult after a while, though, won’t it?

Again, Christianity is not about its ethics. The Sermon on the Mount is essentially the same as Buddha’s Dhammapada, Lao-tzu’s Tao-te-ching, Confucius’ Analects, the Bhagavad Gita, the Proverbs of Solomon, and the Dialogues of Plato.

Indeed.

The only reason to be Christian is, well, because you believe it’s true, not because it makes you a moral person. For one can be a good person and not be Christian.

But, the sacraments have efficacy. And, though them, other practices become more effective. Again, it’s kind of a catch-22. It may be that what I need to produce faith is the very thing I can not have until I have faith.

 

[PRmerger]

In the case of John Frumm:
Real person: Likely an American soldier from World War II.
Natives believe that if they pray to him, he will come back. They believe he used magic to produce goods. They believe he is a powerful spirit. He lives in a volcano.

Scientology- I actually don’t know too much about it. I don’t know what type of role the founder, L Ron Hubbard, actually has in the mythology, if any.

Mormon- Joseph Smith could read writings off of stone tables that he stuck in his hat by the power of the holy spirit. His friend recorded what he dictated. His friends wife was doubtful; she stole (destroyed?) the first writings and so Joseph Smith was asked to reread the tablets. He was unable to and conveniently found new tablets to read with a very similar, but not exact, story.

Then you’ve all the rulers who were thought to be Gods- such as the Egyptian Pharaohs, Mesopotamian Kings, and even some Greeks, among others.

Dalai Lamas and Kumaris are both thought to be re-incarnations.

Specific people include Prince Phillip, who is thought of as a God in another cargo cult, Veleda, a seerer in a tower regarded as a goddess, and Antinous, the Roman face that you see everywhere.

If I recall correctly, some people even worshiped Mary, the mother of Jesus, as a goddess very early on.

I think the best example you gave in the above would be Joseph Smith, for the others quite clearly do not meet the criteria. (They are either not legends, or obtain universal respect or did not “supplant the historical recollection of the true character”)

As per J. Smith: there were no witnesses (as there were in 1st century Judea) to counter that which he proclaimed–thus, it was possible for a myth to develop.

One still has to demonstrate how a legend could develop, while witnesses to the historical figure’s true character were still walking around to counter these lies.

And as for this alleged myth of Jesus, no one has ever answered: why? Why would his disciples lie about his Resurrection? What did it get them except torture and death? Don’t liars always have some selfish motive to incite their deception?

I simply am incredulous that modernists would fall for this ludicrous claim!

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, there are tremendous differences. And yes, there are tremendous similarities. You may be missing my point. We moderns are conditioned to see one thing as “folkloric-sounding” and another thing as not. However, if you take the Jesus miracles and put them in any other setting, they no longer seem reasonable.

I don’t understand. What other setting? Jews in first century Judea? Do you know that there is nothing more UNLIKELY for a Jew to believe than a folk story about a man becoming God?

Imagine this: the transcendent God who for millenia had strictly forbidden his chosen people to confuse him with a creature as the pagans did – this Creator-God became a creature, a man – a crucified criminal.** Hardly a myth that naturally arises in the Jewish mind**.–again, from my main man, Peter Kreeft.

 

[Jocko_VT]

And as for this alleged myth of Jesus, no one has ever answered: why? Why would his disciples lie about his Resurrection? What did it get them except torture and death? Don’t liars always have some selfish motive to incite their deception?

This still assumes that it’s a lie to mythologize. In modern terms, of course, it is. I don’t think it was 2,000 years ago. I think people understood the meaning of myth. I concede I could be completely wrong on this point, though.

Also, though I’m wanting to look into it, I’m not sure anyone was tortured and killed because of the myth aspect, in particular, as opposed to their refusal to deny the path they were on (i.e., for their refusal to adhere to the Law or for their denial of Roman gods). Also, weren’t the Christians, as a new and odd religious sect, often used as scapegoats just as Jews were used during the plagues later in Europe?