Pascal's Wager

[JohnMichaels]

Hello. New here, had a question & figured this would be the best place. I read the sticky on the ban of atheist questions, I am an Atheist but my question isn’t a challenge of God, but a philosophical inquiry on this wager. Actually a spiritual one too now that I think of it, but from an Atheist perspective & I need a believers thoughts.

The wager, to my naive view says my odds are best to believe. But can I believe & be saved without believing? Assuming I’d be convinced this was the correct God, setting aside the debunking of the question. Can just playing the odds and going through the motions of theology without actually believing in a God suffice to avoid the penalty or is there a provision for that?

I’m not trying to decide this for myself, just get a handle on the concept. Could one theoretically get into Heaven not believing, just by acting like anyone else who does believe?

PS: if this post does get me banned, I apologize. I tried this on yahoo answers and got nowhere in terms of a serious answer. Just trolls

 

[underacloud]

Welcome to the forum.

I don’t know if the question breaks any rules, but it is a fair question in itself and one that comes up with regards to Pascal’s wager. One problem with the discussion is that it will lead to a consideration of atheism vs faith and as such may cross over into breaking rules. I don’t know.

In short, no, faking it will not get you in.

Pascal’s wager is a bit of a thought experiment designed to consider the nature of existence and faith. I don’t think it’s taken seriously as a basis for faith itself, but as a starting point to explore things. ie what do you have to lose by considering faith?

Since as Catholics we believe that God speaks to all people, we don’t see a particular contradiction in such thought experiments as a starting point. Faith is God’s gift to us and He bestows it as He chooses.

 

[JohnMichaels]

Pascal’s wager is a bit of a thought experiment designed to consider the nature of existence and faith. I don’t think it’s taken seriously as a basis for faith itself, but as a starting point to explore things. ie what do you have to lose by considering faith?

I think you answered it, unless something else comes in. Going in I was pretty sure you as Religious figure someone who accepts the wager will eventually come to a strong faith. Nothing wrong with that. I certainly didn’t want this to get into any sort of question of faith.

Your short answer of “no” was more geared to how I phrased it. Whereas if someone faked it merely to avoid a negative end result.
I figured it wouldn’t be acceptable, but the question itself does imply that it is. Sort of a “What have you got to lose” wording to it. So I figured I’d reach out for clarification.

Thank you

 

[underacloud]

No problem.

If you read further about Pascal’s work, you’ll find that he elaborates on the porblem of the genuine belief vs feigned belief. You may or may not find what he says compelling, but again it’s more about stirring the mind to consider existence and purpose.

 

[blaskoman]

OP, as an intellectual challenge, I encourage you to read The Catechism of the Catholic Church. It may open your eyes to the depth and beauty of the catholic faith

 

[JohnMichaels]

OP, as an intellectual challenge, I encourage you to read The Catechism of the Catholic Church. It may open your eyes to the depth and beauty of the catholic faith

I was agnostic since the 5th grade. Only Atheist a few years. Since 5th grade I searched for a religion that I felt suited how I looked at things. Found not a 1. I know what the Catholic faith says & even if I wanted to some of the teachings I couldn’t support morally.

Thanks for the interest though, I may read what you suggested

 

[anruari]

John

Pascal’s Wager fails for the following reason:

Faith, as required for Salvation, is not a simple intellectual assent to a theoretical proposition:
i.e. I believe, based on overwhelming balance of evidence that the earth is Round. It orbits the Sun, and that in turn orbits the galactic Centre, which is in turn moving within the larger universe.

An acceptance as per Pascals Wager that one should assent to or pay lip service to some Theistic Religion due to the balance of probabilities or because the odds are better that way (the possible gains far outweigh the possible losses if the religion is true, while the converse is not true) fails due to the very simple fact that what is required for salvation is Faith, not intellectual belief and definately not following a set of “Rules”.

Remember “faith” as per religious faith, and “Faithfullness” and “Fidelity” as in Marriage are variants of the same word.

God wants far more than for us to acknowledge He exists and follow some arbitrary set of rules which those before us have interpreted to be “His Laws”. He wants us to be faithfull to him as a wife is faithful to her husband. It is a relationship of deep, mutual love and interaction.

The New Testament tells us again and again the same thing (and many of the Prophets in the Old testament had pointed to this too). It is not the blind observance of a set of rules or mere lip service to belief that is required.

Faith may be summed up as: “Love the Lord your God with all your Heart, all your Strength, all your Soul and all your Mind”. Our response to that faith should then be to “Love your neighbour as yourself”.

Observing a moral code. Attending church services, receiving the Sacraments. Without Faith these are nothing more than the “Works of the Law” so roundly condemned by St. Paul. however when done in response to and as an expression of an active faith they become a tool for Growth and a fulfillment in our day to day lives of the covenant relationship we have with our God.

This covenant relationship cannot be faked.

As a previoius poster said… as an intelectual exercise you could read the Catechism, or even just the Compendium (just the summaries form then end of each chapter)

 

[Used2beSherryG]

I was agnostic since the 5th grade. Only Atheist a few years. Since 5th grade I searched for a religion that I felt suited how I looked at things. Found not a 1. I know what the Catholic faith says & even if I wanted to some of the teachings I couldn’t support morally.

Thanks for the interest though, I may read what you suggested

Finding a faith that agrees with how you look at things is the real problem here. Keeping an open mind means that you investigate and give careful consideration to the matter at hand. continuing to search for validation of your own ideas already formed and accepted as the absolute authority sets you up as your own deity. Obviously, this is not leading you to fulfillment. Everyone is searching for God, that is why so many are unhappy, resorting to fulfilling themselves through merely physical and fleeting satisfaction, or dabbling in drugs or alcohol to dull their own pain. If you could see your way clear to just ask God to show you His own love and mercy, genuinely/sincerely instead of setting yourself up as the authority on the subject of our own existence being merely some cosmic accident you may be most pleasantly surprised by His love, shown to you perhaps through extraordinary means that you cannot even imagine now.
As for knowing the teachings of the Catholic faith, I sincerely doubt that you have really studied and grasped the teachings as there are no immoral teachings that have been handed down to us through 2000 years and counting. May God in his infinite wisdom and mercy show you His love. And welcome to Catholic answers!

 

[ThinkingSapien]

There have been a lot of threads in the forum about Pascal’s Wager. You might also find some of the previous discussions to be of interest.

 

[anruari]

I was agnostic since the 5th grade. Only Atheist a few years. Since 5th grade I searched for a religion that I felt suited how I looked at things. Found not a 1. I know what the Catholic faith says & even if I wanted to some of the teachings I couldn’t support morally.

Thanks for the interest though, I may read what you suggested

Well I see a fundamental problem with this view.
Are you looking for a faith that suits your world view or are you looking for the Truth?

I cold look for a teaching body that teaches Creationism, or that our planet was colonized by aliens and we are their descendants. If I wanted to I could easily find people teaching these things. That does not make them true.

NOw this is not the time or place to debate the “Teachings you couldn’t support morally”… but I ask you: what makes you the ultimate arbiter of morality? what makes the modern public consensus as influenced by popular media?
The Tabloid press are no better at reporting on Morality and Faith then they are at accurately reporting on Science and Medicine: and I’m sure you’d find it extremely easy to find examples where they got reporting in those areas woefully wrong.

now contrary to popular opinion, the Catholic Faith is one which is very firmly grounded in Reason. Our Moral teachings are entirely based on “Natural Law” which again is entirely based on Reason and logical deductions based on the world around us.

I searched for a religion that I felt suited how I looked at things. Found not a 1.

perhaps you need to look for the truth rather than look for a faith that tells you that you’re right about everything. that’s far more improbable,

 

[MaryandJoseph]

I was an Atheist for 41 years, (have a soft spot in my heart for them even today).

One night while “mindlessly” searching the internet, I came across Pascal’s Wager. I read it and it actually made me start to think a bit. The Wager did not “make” me believe in God, but it did give me something to think about.

And think about it I did! In fact, I could NOT stop thinking about the Wager (maybe the gentle work of the Holy Spirit?) This lead me to investigate other aspects of the Christian faith and yes, even the eastern belief systems.

Long story short, Pascal’s Wager started me on the road to my conversion because it made me THINK outside my comfortable “box”.

My conversion was so crazy and sudden that my RCIA director said I should write a book about it. But as you can tell from the way I am writing, My skills as a writer are lacking…Instead, God gave me a gift for GAB

For me, Pascal’s Wager was a starting point in a wonderful Love Affair between me and My Lord and Saviour.

 

[L_Marshall]

We’re all used to naïvety, mostly our own

To put it on the simplest level and answer your question:
When you believe, you must truly believe. You must “walk the walk,” not just “talk the talk.”

 

[JohnMichaels]

I read all your replies & I can see the danger in my initial instinct to begin quoting & replying. I can be pretty sure how your experiences with atheists on these forums might have gone in the past, but personally I’d consider it disrespectful and quite hypocritical for me to come HERE to your house (so to speak) & start shouting my anti-viewpoints. I won’t do it.

I can, however answer a question asked a few times about a comment I made about finding a religion I could support morally, or that fit my views.

First, this process started at a young age. I’ve always been inquisitive. Things must make sense to me, though. If I can find even 1 thing in a teaching that I can look at and go “that doesn’t make sense to me” the entire thing gets thrown out.

EDIT: That doesn’t always mean I don’t understand another person’s viewpoint, just that I can’t make the same 1+1=3 in my head.

This was just my problem with theism, which I’ve had for a long long time. During these stages I suppose I identified as anyone would with the religion of their upbringing. Which loosely in my case was Catholic. Or as my Mother used to say “Non-Practicing Catholic”

Hope that explains things slightly

 

[Kyrie_ekekraxa]

Hello. New here, had a question & figured this would be the best place. I read the sticky on the ban of atheist questions, I am an Atheist but my question isn’t a challenge of God, but a philosophical inquiry on this wager. Actually a spiritual one too now that I think of it, but from an Atheist perspective & I need a believers thoughts.

The wager, to my naive view says my odds are best to believe. But can I believe & be saved without believing? Assuming I’d be convinced this was the correct God, setting aside the debunking of the question. Can just playing the odds and going through the motions of theology without actually believing in a God suffice to avoid the penalty or is there a provision for that?

I’m not trying to decide this for myself, just get a handle on the concept. Could one theoretically get into Heaven not believing, just by acting like anyone else who does believe?

PS: if this post does get me banned, I apologize. I tried this on yahoo answers and got nowhere in terms of a serious answer. Just trolls

I would like to say that I respectfully disagree with the rest of the people on here, you can go to heaven by being moral even if you aren’t 100 percent sure, the fact the person is going to church and following the seemingly strict rules of the church is itself evidence of faith. Unless you have actually seen God here on earth or had an undeniable miracle (such as the Fatima visionaries) then no Catholics faith is a 100 percent sure IMO and we are all essentially practising Pascal’s wager aside from the visionaries

 

[sealoch]

Finding a faith that agrees with how you look at things is the real problem here. Keeping an open mind means that you investigate and give careful consideration to the matter at hand. continuing to search for validation of your own ideas already formed and accepted as the absolute authority sets you up as your own deity. Obviously, this is not leading you to fulfillment. Everyone is searching for God, that is why so many are unhappy, resorting to fulfilling themselves through merely physical and fleeting satisfaction, or dabbling in drugs or alcohol to dull their own pain. If you could see your way clear to just ask God to show you His own love and mercy, genuinely/sincerely instead of setting yourself up as the authority on the subject of our own existence being merely some cosmic accident you may be most pleasantly surprised by His love, shown to you perhaps through extraordinary means that you cannot even imagine now.
As for knowing the teachings of the Catholic faith, I sincerely doubt that you have really studied and grasped the teachings as there are no immoral teachings that have been handed down to us through 2000 years and counting. May God in his infinite wisdom and mercy show you His love. And welcome to Catholic answers!

Well you may pointed out why he doesn’t believe the christian faith to be moral to him. You have asserted the catholic faith to be true because it has been handed down for 2000 years and counting this does not prove truth. What if he has studied it and found it to ring hollow with him as it has for many others. I wish that you too would study the faith and find what you are looking for.

 

[JohnMichaels]

I was an Atheist for 41 years, (have a soft spot in my heart for them even today).

And think about it I did! In fact, I could NOT stop thinking about the Wager (maybe the gentle work of the Holy Spirit?) This lead me to investigate other aspects of the Christian faith and yes, even the eastern belief systems.

In an of itself the wager is sound. I would ask though, if you were an atheist at the time you took the wager into consideration (or couldn’t stop thinking of it) Did you think of it in terms of just sheer odds, or with a genuine fear of the negative proposal of the wager? & if so, how could you fear it if at the time you didn’t believe in it’s existence?

Very interesting story you have, thank you for sharing it

 

[empther]

The nuns told us a story in grammar school.

A girl was a bad girl. She didn’t believe in God. She didn’t go to Mass. She ran around with the wrong crowd. She got into all kinds of trouble.

But she did do one thing right. Her mother got her into the habit of saying the rosary at bedtime, and she continued this habit because it made her feel good to do what her mother said.
Then the girl died. She went to Heaven.

The meaning is that God will find some way to save us as long as we’re not completely degenerate and hateful.
I agree Pascal’s wager doesn’t hold much water,
yet there is still hope for the doubtful.

 

[Gorgias]

Pascal’s Wager fails for the following reason:

Faith, as required for Salvation, is not a simple intellectual assent to a theoretical proposition…

An acceptance as per Pascals Wager that one should assent to or pay lip service to some Theistic Religion due to the balance of probabilities or because the odds are better that way (the possible gains far outweigh the possible losses if the religion is true, while the converse is not true) fails due to the very simple fact that what is required for salvation is Faith, not intellectual belief and definately not following a set of “Rules”.

The thing is, that isn’t what Pascal is recommending. Instead, he says:

at least learn your inability to believe, since reason brings you to this, and yet you cannot believe. Endeavour, then, to convince yourself, not by increase of proofs of God, but by the abatement of your passions. You would like to attain faith and do not know the way; you would like to cure yourself of unbelief and ask the remedy for it. Learn of those who have been bound like you, and who now stake all their possessions. These are people who know the way which you would follow, and who are cured of an ill of which you would be cured. Follow the way by which they began; by acting as if they believed, taking the holy water, having masses said, etc. Even this will naturally make you believe

Note Pascal’s logic here: first, you’re not just playing a game of logic, but you’re trying to convince yourself of the truth; you’re trying to “attain faith”. He asks you to look at those who have faith, and do the things that they did, as they were growing in faith: the use of sacramentals, participation in Mass. And, even as they only “acted as if they believed,” yet were still “cured of an ill” and came to belief, you too may come to true belief.

Pascal isn’t just saying “this is a good bet, so take it,” to the exclusion of true belief!

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Note Pascal’s logic here: first, you’re not just playing a game of logic, but you’re trying to convince yourself of the truth; you’re trying to “attain faith”.

…but what sets that apart from self deception?

 

[JohnMichaels]

The nuns told us a story in grammar school.

A girl was a bad girl. She didn’t believe in God. She didn’t go to Mass. She ran around with the wrong crowd. She got into all kinds of trouble.

But she did do one thing right. Her mother got her into the habit of saying the rosary at bedtime, and she continued this habit because it made her feel good to do what her mother said.
Then the girl died. She went to Heaven.

Great story. It negates the need for theism mind you, but I like the sentiment.