Passion/Anger Question

[JLAChild]

I was pondering a thought, internal debate, and became frustrated. Maybe even angry and a very sinful, disrespectful thought popped into my head. It was a disrespectful thought to myself about the Church. I immediately rejected it and certainly don’t agree with it, but am having a hard time with it. I know I didn’t deliberately think it, but feel like I brought it on myself for thinking about the subject that led to it.

 

[JRKH]

Bring the matter up to your confessor. He will be able to guide you as to whether you sinned or not.

Peace
James

 

[CopticChristian]

I was pondering a thought, internal debate, and became frustrated. Maybe even angry and a very sinful, disrespectful thought popped into my head. It was a disrespectful thought to myself about the Church. I immediately rejected it and certainly don’t agree with it, but am having a hard time with it. I know I didn’t deliberately think it, but feel like I brought it on myself for thinking about the subject that led to it.

JLA,

Two thoughts…the first is that Paul says that is the way it is…our sin nature.

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Thoughts pop into our heads all the time and it is what we do with them that creates the problem. Know this. You are not your thoughts.

You observed the thought, recognized it, rejected it and that is what it is all about…and you did bring it on yourself…as long as you continue to have internal debate the thoughts will continue…what you need to do is to find resolution in some way…may I ask what this thought might be if that is not too much to ask…?

 

[JLAChild]

JLA,

Two thoughts…the first is that Paul says that is the way it is…our sin nature.

Thoughts pop into our heads all the time and it is what we do with them that creates the problem. Know this. You are not your thoughts.

You observed the thought, recognized it, rejected it and that is what it is all about…and you did bring it on yourself…as long as you continue to have internal debate the thoughts will continue…what you need to do is to find resolution in some way…may I ask what this thought might be if that is not too much to ask…?

you’re right - I rejected it, and after some more thought on it after my post, perhaps getting some distance from it, I realized it wasn’t something I consented to, nor deliberate. I guess that was what I was worrying over.

A case of the scruples I guess.

I know I’ve heard it before that we can’t control our thoughts and what makes an intrusive thought intrusive is the fact we don’t want it. But not wanting it is the sign that it isn’t deliberate.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[CopticChristian]

you’re right - I rejected it, and after some more thought on it after my post, perhaps getting some distance from it, I realized it wasn’t something I consented to, nor deliberate. I guess that was what I was worrying over.

A case of the scruples I guess.

I know I’ve heard it before that we can’t control our thoughts and what makes an intrusive thought intrusive is the fact we don’t want it. But not wanting it is the sign that it isn’t deliberate.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

JLA,

Now that you realize that, recognize that what you think about, you will think about.

If you think of controversy, you will think controversy and those thoughts will pop into your head unless you resovle them.

The best way to control your thoughts is to resolve in the consciuous mind those issues that need resolution or your subconscious will bring it out when you least expect it asking for resolution.

In other words, whatever that thought was, think about something that resolves it in a positive way…your subconscious does not respond to NO…Jesus understood that as did Paul…

Paul pointed out that the law brought sin…Don’t do this, don’t do that…

and

Jesus fixed it all by saying…in the positive…

Love God
Love Neighbor

Jesus knows how our minds work.

 

[JRKH]

Good advice Coptic…

If I may add…Another thing that we are unfortunately left with are “memories” and historical thought patterns. I was away from the Church for 35 years and in that time I developed some deeply “rutted” ways of thinking. Having returned to the Church and recognizing the errors of those thought processes has not instantly caused me to stop “automatically” thinking that way…I have to consciously recognize when I do it and reject it.
Likewise with memories. 35 years of a sinful life leaves many memories with good and innocent memories mixed up with bad and sinful ones.

Handling these things, learning to change our thought patterns and dealing with old memories are all part and parcel of our spiritual journey and offer opportunities for growth if we can recognize and use those opportunities.

Peace
James

 

[CopticChristian]

Good advice Coptic…

If I may add…Another thing that we are unfortunately left with are “memories” and historical thought patterns. I was away from the Church for 35 years and in that time I developed some deeply “rutted” ways of thinking. Having returned to the Church and recognizing the errors of those thought processes has not instantly caused me to stop “automatically” thinking that way…I have to consciously recognize when I do it and reject it.
Likewise with memories. 35 years of a sinful life leaves many memories with good and innocent memories mixed up with bad and sinful ones.

Handling these things, learning to change our thought patterns and dealing with old memories are all part and parcel of our spiritual journey and offer opportunities for growth if we can recognize and use those opportunities.

Peace
James

JR,

There is a way to change those memories.

 

[JRKH]

JR,

There is a way to change those memories.

And that would be???

Peace
James

 

[CopticChristian]

And that would be???

Peace
James

JR,

First, understand that the two sources of information in your head are stored memory and Imagination…and accept that both are as real and cause a view of the world based on either.

 

[JRKH]

JR,

First, understand that the two sources of information in your head are stored memory and Imagination…and accept that both are as real and cause a view of the world based on either.

I don’t see how that “changes memories”. Memories exist and can crop up undesired just like other thoughts. They have to be recognized and dealt with just like any other random thought. Recognizing that they are a “memory” of an actual event as opposed to something “imagined” does not change the memory…

Peace
James

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t see how that “changes memories”. Memories exist and can crop up undesired just like other thoughts. They have to be recognized and dealt with just like any other random thought. Recognizing that they are a “memory” of an actual event as opposed to something “imagined” does not change the memory…

Peace
James

JR,

This is true unless you believe that you can change the memory of the event, that is the basis for the 5 minute phobia cure as proposed by Bandler.

 

[JRKH]

JR,

This is true unless you believe that you can change the memory of the event, that is the basis for the 5 minute phobia cure as proposed by Bandler.

Well - I don’t know from Bandler……but when a memory pops up that involves grave matter free choice and knowledge…I know I’m remembering a mortal sin - should I want to change that?
When an old thought pattern crops up like seeing a pretty girl and automatically thinking something sinful…I know I’m still imperfect and need to work on changing how i react to that stimuli.

Then there are the more complicated things like the fact that the greatest blessing in my life (my marriage) came about through some very sinful behavior…So some old memories can be both attractive AND problematic…

Ah well…I think we’ve gotten too far off topic here…

Peace
James

 

[CopticChristian]

Well - I don’t know from Bandler……but when a memory pops up that involves grave matter free choice and knowledge…I know I’m remembering a mortal sin - should I want to change that?
When an old thought pattern crops up like seeing a pretty girl and automatically thinking something sinful…I know I’m still imperfect and need to work on changing how i react to that stimuli.

Then there are the more complicated things like the fact that the greatest blessing in my life (my marriage) came about through some very sinful behavior…So some old memories can be both attractive AND problematic…

Ah well…I think we’ve gotten too far off topic here…

Peace
James

JR,

Not so. The topic is Passion/Anger…and understanding that is not off topic.

Do you agree that all memories are at best imperfect and that many memories when compared with what others recall is always different…in other words how often have you heard someone say…“that’s not how I remmember it”?

 

[JRKH]

JR,

Not so. The topic is Passion/Anger…and understanding that is not off topic.

Fair enough

Do you agree that all memories are at best imperfect

No I don’t agree with this

and that many memories when compared with what others recall is always different…

Again - no…I have seen many times were different people remember things the same way

in other words how often have you heard someone say…“that’s not how I remember it”?

Sure I have - but that is a long way from saying (as you do above) that what others recall is always different.

Peace
James

 

[CopticChristian]

Fair enough

No I don’t agree with this

Again - no…I have seen many times were different people remember things the same way

Sure I have - but that is a long way from saying (as you do above) that what others recall is always different.

Peace
James

James,

You have perfect recall?

 

[JRKH]

James,

You have perfect recall?

By “perfect recall” are you referring to what is sometimes called “photographic memory”?

No I don’t. Is that what you were trying to get to?? Because that is not what I read.
You asked…“Do you agree that all memories are at best imperfect?”
To which I replied no I do not.
Many - even most - memories are surely imperfect or incomplete in some way…But other memories can be retained quite “perfectly” in all of their essentials.

If I recall that I lost my temper with someone over some little nothing…How much “recall” do I need to know perfectly well that I sinned? And in the course of conversation if that incident were to come up, how perfectly would others memories have to be in order for them to agree with me?..

Peace
James

 

[CopticChristian]

By “perfect recall” are you referring to what is sometimes called “photographic memory”?

No I don’t. Is that what you were trying to get to?? Because that is not what I read.
You asked…“Do you agree that all memories are at best imperfect?”
To which I replied no I do not.
Many - even most - memories are surely imperfect or incomplete in some way…But other memories can be retained quite “perfectly” in all of their essentials.

If I recall that I lost my temper with someone over some little nothing…How much “recall” do I need to know perfectly well that I sinned? And in the course of conversation if that incident were to come up, how perfectly would others memories have to be in order for them to agree with me?..

Peace
James

JR,

The whole point is changing memories that cause difficulty…you can choose to recall a sinful episode or a sinful episode with resolution and in doing so you change the memory as an isolated event of sin…you have the ability to recall a memory, modify it, and then when it returns it is as modified…

 

[JRKH]

JR,

The whole point is changing memories that cause difficulty…you can choose to recall a sinful episode or a sinful episode with resolution and in doing so you change the memory as an isolated event of sin…you have the ability to recall a memory, modify it, and then when it returns it is as modified…

AH - OK I see what you are getting at. That makes sense.

What I was referring to though are those memories that pop up “unaltered” and unbidden. Not things that I consciously recall

If a sinful memory pops up, I recognize it in two ways. One is as a reminder not to commit that sin again…the other is to once again feel sorrow for that sin…which reinforces the commitment to amend my life.
So in this sense, the memories - though painful - can have a sanctifying effect.

Peace
James

 

[CopticChristian]

AH - OK I see what you are getting at. That makes sense.

What I was referring to though are those memories that pop up “unaltered” and unbidden. Not things that I consciously recall

If a sinful memory pops up, I recognize it in two ways. One is as a reminder not to commit that sin again…the other is to once again feel sorrow for that sin…which reinforces the commitment to amend my life.
So in this sense, the memories - though painful - can have a sanctifying effect.

Peace
James

JR,

Then you can change those memories that pop up as well…once you are aware that you have that power then you can practice that power that God gave you…

Repent…Metanoia…change your mind…

Be not conformed to this world but be renewed by the transformation of your mind…

and more…

Jesus knows you can change your mind and you can be transformed by renewing your mind…and assent to the Will that has it’s end in sight in the 3rd section of the Catechism…

We Believe
We Live Sacramentally
We Strive for morality as God is Holy by modeling Christ
We ask for Help/pray…