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lobster
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Well said!
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lobster
Guest
I wonder how Saint Francis made it to heaven if he was committing a mortal sin by not carrying a weapon around with him. 
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Sir_Knight
Guest
I didn’t take the comments of post 34 relating back to the FIRST comment made in post 33 but merely to the SECOND comment. If it did relate to the first as well, then I misunderstood and offer my apologizes.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
And what was displeasing? His aggression of lack of aggression?
The message that I get from this passage is that if aggression is required and not performed, then that is displeasing to God.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
By providing the grace to change, God IS changing the person’s will. Again, splitting hairs.
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Sir_Knight
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Did or did not Jesus command His followers in Luke 22:36-38 to purchase a sword if they did not have one? The “sword” [Greek: maxairan] is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler’s equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. Pretty much the equilavent of what a gun is today.
The sin is the failure, in execution AND preparation, to protect yourself and your loved ones with the best means possible.
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Sir_Knight
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You have failed to explain why the failure to perform one grave duty is a grave sin of omission but the failure to perform another grave duty would not be a grave sin of omission?
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Sir_Knight
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Sir_Knight
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*** Continued from PREVIOUS Post Due to Length ***
Having children learn how to protect themselves via the martial arts is an excellent idea. My ten year old daughter is on her second green belt already (we had to switch school to a different style so she had to start all over again – thus the double green belt … one from each school). And spending quality time at the gun range is a fun way to spend an afternoon. Both my wife and daughter enjoy it.
How do we oppose evil if we do not confront it? How do we fulfill our grave duty to protect ourselves if we don’t employ the best means available to us?OK, that’s heavy on the sarcasm. I feel for people who have to face the threat of violence daily. But it seems to me that your position is extreme. Taking reasonable measures to protect oneself and one’s family are fine, but we have no obilgation to arm ourselves as you seem to suggest, implicitly, at the very least. If someone feels at risk and chooses to do so, fine with me. I don’t expect them to feel a need to protect me.
Back to the premise of this thread, it seems to me that there needs to be a balance between trusting in the Almighty when it comes to what happens to us and making reasonable efforts to protect ourselves. It seems to me that the “We are mandated by the CCC to carry a weapon” suggestion or implication, the “We should stand and fight everytime, because we are mandated to fight evil” and the “running away is cowardly” positions suggest that we can do things to protect ourselves that the Lord cannot. IMHO, anyway, for what it’s worth.
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Newbie2
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I guess it depends on how “best” is defined. I put my trust in the Lord, not my .357 Magnum. That is not to say that if I were in different circumstances or that others in such circumstances should not carry. But it seems to me that your posts indicate, at least to some extent, the lack of ability or will of the Almighty to keep you safe, and an unwillingless to accept, if that be his will, a violent death. I would hope and pray that such a death not be in the cards, so to speak, for any of us. But bad things happen to good people, and the Almighty has his reasons for allowing such to happen.
Confronting evil can take many forms. I noticed not once have you mentioned prayer. We can pray for peace. We can support law enforcement in a variety of different ways. We can lobby for legislation to put and keep bad guys in jail.
Confronting evil doesn’t necessitate taking up arms, except in the case of the military, law enforcement, and on a very limited basis, those who are in peril due to their circumstances.
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Sir_Knight
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Did our Lord tell His followers to put their trust in God? Certainly! Did He tell them to trust in the power of prayer? Of course!! Did He also tell them to secure weapons for themselves? Yes!!!
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Newbie2
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Again, methinks you’ve done some mistaken eisageis here. Que Sera, Sera.
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lobster
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Sir Knight:
Bless me father for I, like Saint Francis, have been living in sin all of my life, since like Saint Francis, I don’t own a gun or other mortal weapon, and like him have failed in execution and preparation…
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Sir_Knight
Guest
If you want to make light of the teachings of the Son of God as recorded in the infallible Word of God, that is your business.
Even the Apologists on this board agree that Jesus was not a pacifist – citing the passage in Luke 22:36, where Jesus commanded His followers to buy a sword, as their supporting reference.
Even the Apologists on this board agree that Jesus was not a pacifist – citing the passage in Luke 22:36, where Jesus commanded His followers to buy a sword, as their supporting reference.
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DrumminFool91
Guest
You know, I think C.S. Lewis treats this issue head on in “Screwtape Letters”. Yes yes, I know Lewis is neither authoritative nor Catholic, but I think his observations are really spot on. Check out an excerpt on this here, particularly paragraphs 3 and 4 as he debates leading his “patient” towards either pacifism or “patriotism” (this is the term of Lewis’ choosing in describing the opposite position of pacifism - I have no intention of spurring debate over whether or not a pacifist is a patriot - I will use the term through out my post for the sake of simplicity) in the 2nd World War:
ccc-nl.org/mn/ScrewTape_Letter_7_and_questions.pdf
I think it really is possible to be an ardent pacifist or an ardent patriot and be well within the bounds of Church teaching here. It seems that it will really depend on one’s motives and intentions as to whether or not there would be merit in such a stance or if either sins of cowardace (in the case of pacifism) or wrath (in the case of patriotism) have been committed.
Though, I will say, the martyrdom issue seems pretty cut and dry to me: you don’t go looking for it, rather if after all attempts have been made to avoid punishment without compromising one’s faith, and one is left with the decision between death or renouncing their faith and thus in fidelity to Christ chooses death - this constitutes martyrdom. Also, if one is simply murdered only on the basis of their faith, that also would be martyrdom*.
*For a prime example, please see the case of Somali mujahedin going out and simply killing a Catholic nun because she was a Catholic. This happened after the Pope’s remarks a few years ago about Islam only bringing the sword at a university.
ccc-nl.org/mn/ScrewTape_Letter_7_and_questions.pdf
I think it really is possible to be an ardent pacifist or an ardent patriot and be well within the bounds of Church teaching here. It seems that it will really depend on one’s motives and intentions as to whether or not there would be merit in such a stance or if either sins of cowardace (in the case of pacifism) or wrath (in the case of patriotism) have been committed.
Though, I will say, the martyrdom issue seems pretty cut and dry to me: you don’t go looking for it, rather if after all attempts have been made to avoid punishment without compromising one’s faith, and one is left with the decision between death or renouncing their faith and thus in fidelity to Christ chooses death - this constitutes martyrdom. Also, if one is simply murdered only on the basis of their faith, that also would be martyrdom*.
*For a prime example, please see the case of Somali mujahedin going out and simply killing a Catholic nun because she was a Catholic. This happened after the Pope’s remarks a few years ago about Islam only bringing the sword at a university.
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Newbie2
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Who’s making light?
Yours is an interesting interpretation. I don’t buy it, but perhaps you could explain:
Does it mean that we should all go out and buy guns? Under penalty of sin?
Why did Jesus tell Peter to put away his sword after he cut off Malchus’ ear?
Why did Jesus say, in Luke 22:38, that two swords were enough? (for 11 disciples?)
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pnewton
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I believe it is just your application that has been questioned, not God. And from Michelle Arnold:
I do not think anyone is questioning this. There is a difference between “permissible” and “mandatory”.
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budgie2
Guest
I have to say that your beliefs are not based on the teaching of Christ although they may be based on your political beliefs. I would personally read the Gospel more often to find out Christ’s teaching as he is without sin and therefore we are called to imitate him. As married people we are asked to imitate him in every way apart from in his celibacy.
Matthew 5:38
An eye for an eye
"You have heard that it was said, “Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak aswell.”
Matthew 5:43
Love for enemies
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.”
Yes, I know you can quote the Old Testament at me. However, Christ is my saviour and Lord of all the Prophets. So I should base my thoughts and my actions on his, otherwise I do not accept him as Son of God.
I can be physically powerful and spiritually impotent. Christ exerted spiritual power, the power of prayer rather than tried to rule by physical aggression.
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pnewton
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Having followed lobster’s other posts here, I am sure you misunderstood him. Do you notice all the question marks? He is not advocating these thing. He is pointing out the logical problem in making an omission of violence or force an occasion of mortal sin in all situations.
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Sir_Knight
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How much praying did our Lord do when He physically threw the money changers out of the temple?
And while Christ is the “Lord of Prophets”, He was also in PERFECT agreement with His heavenly Father in ALL things. If the Father instructed people to give measure for measure (as in your “eye for an eye” example) and Jesus instructed differently, then He would NOT have been in perfect agreement with His Father, would He?
Measure for measure and turning the other cheek are two different teachings and are in disagreement with each other UNLESS there is something overlooked in that teaching. Because He was constantly watched by the Romans, Jesus spoke in parables that were easily mis-interpreted by a quick or simplistic reading.
You need to keep in mind a couple of things - one, 2,000 years ago the customs and laws were very different. Two, the middle east was a conquered land, harshly occupied by armed Roman soldiers.
In Roman times, conduct between citizens and conquered peoples was often strictly formalized and controlled in many small ways. As such, a Roman citizen or soldier could chastise a slave or non-citizen, and the slave could not retaliate - that would be mutiny, and punishable by death.
A slave or servant was chastised with a slap on the face with the open hand. This was an insulting blow, delivered to an inferior person or an animal. A non-citizen could be beaten by a citizen as much as desired with the open hand, and had no recourse. Defending themselves would mean death. A blow with the back of the hand or a closed fist, however, was a fighting blow - one delivered between equals, and one to which anyone, even a slave could respond.
Try it with someone. Have a friend pretend to slap you and you immediately step forward offering the other cheek. Look at what will happen based on the positions that both of you are in. Your friend will have three choices: (1) He can take a step back and slap you again with the open hand but that will cause him to lose face because a non-Roman made him back up. (2) He can strike you with the back of the hand but that will be viewed as a challenge to fight because he hit you with his knuckles freeing you to retaliate without fear of being condemned to death for mutiny. (3) Or, he can walk away making his point with only one slap instead of slapping you repeatedly as often happened.
Jesus taught his followers a practical way to avoid being slapped around by the Romans as was frequently the case if you study the history from that area.
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