Past sins and choosing a spouse

[valient_Lucy]

I think there are certain things that would indeed make a marriage difficult if not impossible - and the existence of a child of your partner may be one of them for you.

As for ruling them out so completely - that may be a problem.

You say someone who has been in jail? What if they got a parking ticket and didn’t have money to pay the fine, and therefore had to spend a few days in jail? Would you date someone who had had a parking fine but paid it?

Or what if someone took part in a protest against (say) abortion legislation, and were arbitrarily and wrongfully arrested and (again) had not enough money to pay a fine, and was required to spend a few days in jail?

I agree more so about things like habitual violence and addictions, which are extremely difficult habits to get rid of and can be disastrous in a partner.

Even so - I would always allow for at least the possibility of change and look at the circumstances of the addiction or jail time or what have you.

I stated this on antother post, but when I was talking about spending time in jail, I meant for a period of years, such as 10 years or so. I guess I didn’t make that clear. A person spending time in jail for protesting or parking tickets is not a big deal, IMO. But if someone was convicted of embezzlement or grand theft auto, or some other felony, that to me would be a giant red flag. Especially something like embezzlement, which can go on for years. If someone was stealing money from a company for a period of years, that would make me very scared.

 

[kage_ar]

Since I doubt you are hanging out at Parole Board meetings or Mafia recruiting seminars hoping to meet guys, well, the idea of “no convicted felons” seems to be an interesting bit on your list. I mean, I have a wide range of friends, all over the US and the world, and none of them are convicted felons. IMO, if you hang out with people who have the same values as you do, that is the kind of person you will date and marry (if that is God’s will for you).

 

[valient_Lucy]

I also want to state two other things.
1 First of all, some of the issues, such as the fathering a child out of wedlock, have to do with my own personality. I’m not always the most forgiving person (obviously!) so my fear would be that, if I’m constantly reminded of a person’s misdeeds, I would not be able to forgive them. I can deal with a person’s past, as long as it’s the past. The problem with a child is, the past isn’t dead; it’s not even past. (William Faulkner.) I’m afraid I wouldn’t be able to overlook that. I know of some women who have married men with children from previous relationships; I’ve even heard of women marrying men with HIV or men who have spent time in prison for murder. (I remember a man married Carla Faye Tucker, the woman in Texas who was sentanced to death for hacking a woman to death with a pickaxe.) But they’re probably much better people than I am.

2 Second of all, in some of the instances, it’s not really even the sin, it’s the consequenses of the sin. Even after a person repents, there are usually still consequences to the sin. When you marry someone, you’re often choosing not just them, but their consequences (so it would seem.) Is there ever a point where a person could say, “I couldn’t deal with the consequences of that person’s behavior?” Take a person who spent 10 years in jail for stealing company money. It goes without saying that he’ll probably have a difficult time finding a job, which means he’ll have a difficult time supporting a family. Even if he repents of his sin, every potential employer will ask him, “Have you ever been convicted of a felony?” Even if I understand that he has changed, his employers might not, and that could make our financial life very difficult.

3 The other problem is, I was always tought that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. I understand that people can repent and change, but how can I, or anyone, be sure that they won’t slip back into their old patterns? In most instances, a peron’s old habits are not that dangerous. But in the few instances where they are, is it worth a taking a chance that might put you and your future children at risk? How could you tell that a person won’t return to their old ways?

 

[valient_Lucy]

Since I doubt you are hanging out at Parole Board meetings or Mafia recruiting seminars hoping to meet guys, well, the idea of “no convicted felons” seems to be an interesting bit on your list. I mean, I have a wide range of friends, all over the US and the world, and none of them are convicted felons. IMO, if you hang out with people who have the same values as you do, that is the kind of person you will date and marry (if that is God’s will for you).

Yeah, I can’t say that I plan to meet too many convicted felons, or that I know any convicted felons anyway. But this is mainly a theoretical exercise, so I figured I’d put it up there anyway.

 

[gmarie21]

I also want to state two other things.
1 First of all, some of the issues, such as the fathering a child out of wedlock, have to do with my own personality. I’m not always the most forgiving person (obviously!) so my fear would be that, if I’m constantly reminded of a person’s misdeeds, I would not be able to forgive them. I can deal with a person’s past, as long as it’s the past. The problem with a child is, the past isn’t dead; it’s not even past. (William Faulkner.) I’m afraid I wouldn’t be able to overlook that. I know of some women who have married men with children from previous relationships; I’ve even heard of women marrying men with HIV or men who have spent time in prison for murder. (I remember a man married Carla Faye Tucker, the woman in Texas who was sentanced to death for hacking a woman to death with a pickaxe.) But they’re probably much better people than I am.

2 Second of all, in some of the instances, it’s not really even the sin, it’s the consequenses of the sin. Even after a person repents, there are usually still consequences to the sin. When you marry someone, you’re often choosing not just them, but their consequences (so it would seem.) Is there ever a point where a person could say, “I couldn’t deal with the consequences of that person’s behavior?” Take a person who spent 10 years in jail for stealing company money. It goes without saying that he’ll probably have a difficult time finding a job, which means he’ll have a difficult time supporting a family. Even if he repents of his sin, every potential employer will ask him, “Have you ever been convicted of a felony?” Even if I understand that he has changed, his employers might not, and that could make our financial life very difficult.

3 The other problem is, I was always tought that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. I understand that people can repent and change, but how can I, or anyone, be sure that they won’t slip back into their old patterns? In most instances, a peron’s old habits are not that dangerous. But in the few instances where they are, is it worth a taking a chance that might put you and your future children at risk? How could you tell that a person won’t return to their old ways?

Well, before discerning marriage, you should work on your inability to forgive b/c marriage is a lifetime commitment of loving and forgiving your spouse. To be a good wife, you need to prepare yourself even before entering a relationship, and if forgiving is your main weakness, you know where to start.

When you marry, you also marry that person’s family. Do you have qualifications for the family of your future spouse? Families almost always affect a marriage on some level. While, I’m not married yet, my daughter’s dad’s brother is in prison and his needs affect my pocketbook (each person in the family sends him money when we can) and my time, when I visit him that is a 4 hour drive total plus the wait time to get in to visit him, plus the visiting time, plus the money to buy food while visiting him, but we do it out of LOVE. I know that my family is like the family on “My Big Fat Greek Wedding” so they are more involved in everyone’s life than may be comfortable for people. If your putting requirements for a future spouse, you must also evaluate how their family is and how they will affect your marriage.

Also, my grandfather went to prison for being the driver of a getaway car. He and my grandmother were dating at the time. She would go and visit him and sleep outside the prison the night before each visit (hotels weren’t common in the farmlands at the time). When he was released they married and remained married their whole lives with six children. My grandfather was the most loving man. But during their marriage they both were trying on each other and had to forgive one another. They truly loved one another through the “good times and bad times”. Isn’t that what marriage is about?

 

[lotusblossom]

valient Lucy,

I just want to say, you probably will find a great spouse . While I don’t necessarily completely agree with your list, I know there are many men who don’t fall under any of these categories (my husband was one of them ) and you know yourself best. There are many great men out there - sometimes it just takes a some searching to find them.

 

[valient_Lucy]

valient Lucy,

I just want to say, you probably will find a great spouse . While I don’t necessarily completely agree with your list, I know there are many men who don’t fall under any of these categories (my husband was one of them ) and you know yourself best. There are many great men out there - sometimes it just takes a some searching to find them.

I hope so. And who knows? Maybe the list will change. I probably would have written a different one three years ago.

 

[mrs_abbott]

A few weeks ago, I posted on the forums saying that I would not marry a man who had fathered a child out of wedlock, no matter how good a person he became afterwards. To me, this is a non-negotiable. A few other non-negotiables are
1 Having spent time in jail or being convicted of a felony.
2 Having a previous marriage and divorce.
3 Coercing a former girlfriend to have an abortion.
4 A history of violent behavior.

So, what do people think? Does anyone else have a point where a person’s past transgressions make them an unsuitable marriage partner, regardless of their current state of holiness?

Well, as a woman who had a child out of wedlock, I’m glad my now husband (friend when the child was born) didn’t judge me like that.
I made a mistake, admitted it, repented for it and now I’ve moved on and am nothing like I used to be.
The same could be true for a guy too. You just never know.
Good luck finding a gentleman to marry!
It took awhile but I found mine!

 

[Genesis315]

I don’t really think those lists are that great of an idea. I think it’s best to get to know people and make a decision based on their whole person.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Well, before discerning marriage, you should work on your inability to forgive b/c marriage is a lifetime commitment of loving and forgiving your spouse. To be a good wife, you need to prepare yourself even before entering a relationship, and if forgiving is your main weakness, you know where to start.

When you marry, you also marry that person’s family. Do you have qualifications for the family of your future spouse? Families almost always affect a marriage on some level. While, I’m not married yet, my daughter’s dad’s brother is in prison and his needs affect my pocketbook (each person in the family sends him money when we can) and my time, when I visit him that is a 4 hour drive total plus the wait time to get in to visit him, plus the visiting time, plus the money to buy food while visiting him, but we do it out of LOVE. I know that my family is like the family on “My Big Fat Greek Wedding” so they are more involved in everyone’s life than may be comfortable for people. If your putting requirements for a future spouse, you must also evaluate how their family is and how they will affect your marriage.

Also, my grandfather went to prison for being the driver of a getaway car. He and my grandmother were dating at the time. She would go and visit him and sleep outside the prison the night before each visit (hotels weren’t common in the farmlands at the time). When he was released they married and remained married their whole lives with six children. My grandfather was the most loving man. But during their marriage they both were trying on each other and had to forgive one another. They truly loved one another through the “good times and bad times”. Isn’t that what marriage is about?

Well, I have MANY weaknesses, but yeah, I’d say holding grudges is probably the biggest one. You’re right, it is something I need to pray about. Even if I never marry, I should still work on that.

I guess family is a little easier for me to overlook, partly because my own family is pretty screwed up. My parents had a terrible marriage before they finally divorced, and no one in my family is Catholic. (Toward the end, my brother and I begged my mom to divorce my dad.) My mom’s side of the family are Christians, and my dad’s side of the family is not. (I have a hard time forgiving both sides of my family too.) For me, I guess I feel that family is important, but it’s not always within a person’s control, but their choices usually are. Plus, if I’m want someone to overlook my family, I’d better be willing to overlook his family!

It’s obvious that your grandmother really loved your grandfather, and that she was a much better person than I am. I know that in marriage a husband and wife have to learn to forgive each other. I guess it just worries me that, if I get married, I’d pick the wrong person, like my mom did. My mom says, in retrospect, she realizes that there were red flags that did warn her that dad would probably not make a good husband, but she chose to ignore them. Not only did she pay for it, but so did my brother and I. I don’t want to do that to my kids.

 

[gmarie21]

Well, I have MANY weaknesses, but yeah, I’d say holding grudges is probably the biggest one. You’re right, it is something I need to pray about. Even if I never marry, I should still work on that.

It’s obvious that your grandmother really loved your grandfather, and that she was a much better person than I am. I know that in marriage a husband and wife have to learn to forgive each other. I guess it just worries me that, if I get married, I’d pick the wrong person, like my mom did. My mom says, in retrospect, she realizes that there were red flags that did warn her that dad would probably not make a good husband, but she chose to ignore them. Not only did she pay for it, but so did my brother and I. I don’t want to do that to my kids.

The best way to make sure you notice red flags is to avoid rose colored glasses. Christian Courtship in an Oversexed World is a good book to explain how anyone should approach dating, courtship and marriage. Unfortunately I only found this in the past few weeks many years after the birth of my daughter out of wedlock.

Also, try to work on your hurt and pain from your parents’ relationship before even thinking about dating/courting. Otherwise, the baggage you’ll be dragging into the marriage may be far worse and more damaging to the marriage than the baggage of a man who had a child out of wedlock. I’ve seen many marriages go to ruins when one spouse didn’t deal with the pain from their youth before entering the marriage.

 

[Kristopher]

Indulgences should do the trick.

 

[SMHW]

Well, I have MANY weaknesses, but yeah, I’d say holding grudges is probably the biggest one. You’re right, it is something I need to pray about. Even if I never marry, I should still work on that.

I guess family is a little easier for me to overlook, partly because my own family is pretty screwed up.

I’m going to go go out on a limb and say that you do need a checklist when it comes to the men you see as potential husbands. But I think that you need to add another item and that is that the family of the man you would consider marrying needs to be ‘healthy’.

Before anybody comments on my post let me say that I’m giving this advice to Valient Lucy not to people in general.

My reasoning is that you say you come from a family with problems and that tells me that you may have some problems making valid judgements regarding what is necessary for a healthy Catholic marriage. You might do well to have a list which is seperate from your emotional feelings for any given gentleman.

Now I believe that it is likely that your list could use some adjustments and it’s possible you might need to make an exception from time to time but I think the idea of a list is good for you.

 

[Em_in_FL]

My only advice is to pray FOR your future spouse!

God knows who He has in mind for you (if He desires for you to be married)… and we all know every human being sins and deals with troubles in their lives…
So the best you can do is pray that your future spouse always turns to God throughout his life!

Forgivness is always key, though…

One of the strongest Catholic couples I know (they’re actually BOTH youth ministers), the husband was formerly married, had a child… divorced (and anulled, of course)…

Pray that your future spouse does not have to endure the same struggles as others may have to.

God bless!

 

[lotusblossom]

Well, I have MANY weaknesses, but yeah, I’d say holding grudges is probably the biggest one. You’re right, it is something I need to pray about. Even if I never marry, I should still work on that.

I guess family is a little easier for me to overlook, partly because my own family is pretty screwed up. My parents had a terrible marriage before they finally divorced, and no one in my family is Catholic. (Toward the end, my brother and I begged my mom to divorce my dad.) My mom’s side of the family are Christians, and my dad’s side of the family is not. (I have a hard time forgiving both sides of my family too.) For me, I guess I feel that family is important, but it’s not always within a person’s control, but their choices usually are. Plus, if I’m want someone to overlook my family, I’d better be willing to overlook his family!

It’s obvious that your grandmother really loved your grandfather, and that she was a much better person than I am. I know that in marriage a husband and wife have to learn to forgive each other. I guess it just worries me that, if I get married, I’d pick the wrong person, like my mom did. My mom says, in retrospect, she realizes that there were red flags that did warn her that dad would probably not make a good husband, but she chose to ignore them. Not only did she pay for it, but so did my brother and I. I don’t want to do that to my kids.

I would say in your situation, if you meet someone you could see yourself spending the rest of your life with, ask good, level-headed friends that you trust and know have good discernment. If they see any red flags, they’ll be able to let you know. You might even want to ask your mother, although her opinion may be a little different due to her experience. I know that when I was dating a guy who wanted to marry me (I just graduated from high school at the time and he was in his senior yr - his family didn’t go to college, so he assumed we’d get married when he graduated), and he gave me a “promise ring” my parents just about flipped out. My mom told me that if we were ever to actually get engaged, she wanted to sit down and express her concerns. My dad didn’t even have to speak - I knew he didn’t approve. However, their concerns were real - we were from two COMPLETELY different backgrounds. His parents were divorced, living with other people - not married, nor Christian, smoked and drank excessively (although he didn’t b/c of me) and he liked to hang out with the kids who got into trouble. We had very different sets of values and he wanted to limit the number of children. He had no intentions of going to college and had very little enthusiasm for learning (which I LOVE to learn new things).He had very little respect for my parents, in the sense, that he rarely said more than hello and couldn’t look them in the eye. At the time, I was convinced that love is a choice and so even if I didn’t “feel” that I really wanted to marry him, I would because I was choosing to do so. Thankfully, college woke me up and slapped me in the face and I am now married to a wonderful man who comes from a great background and has the same values as me.

I’ve also had friends who’ve woken me up to potentially abusive relationships as well, and that made me see those red flags and I quickly got out of these. When I was younger, I had “fix-it” problem. I sought relationships where the man needed “fixing up,” which is how I fell into these unhealthy relationships. I don’t have a single friend who has said anything negative about my present husband. All approved with two thumbs up, so I knew even more that I was marrying a good man .

My only advice is to pray FOR your future spouse!

God knows who He has in mind for you (if He desires for you to be married)… and we all know every human being sins and deals with troubles in their lives…
So the best you can do is pray that your future spouse always turns to God throughout his life!

Forgivness is always key, though…

One of the strongest Catholic couples I know (they’re actually BOTH youth ministers), the husband was formerly married, had a child… divorced (and anulled, of course)…

Pray that your future spouse does not have to endure the same struggles as others may have to.

God bless!

I would agree wholeheartedly! I prayed for my future spouse and I pray for all my friends’ future spouses . My mom and my husband’s mom both prayed for our future spouses when we were growing up.

 

[Norseman82]

When we marry, we have to expect a certain level of imperfections and a certain amount of history. However, at what point does a person’s past transgressions mean that they should no longer be considered as a possible spouse?

A few weeks ago, I posted on the forums saying that I would not marry a man who had fathered a child out of wedlock, no matter how good a person he became afterwards. To me, this is a non-negotiable. A few other non-negotiables are
1 Having spent time in jail or being convicted of a felony.
2 Having a previous marriage and divorce.
3 Coercing a former girlfriend to have an abortion.
4 A history of violent behavior.

To me, the presence of any of these things would cause me to immediatly break off the relationship and look for someone else. To me, even if the person repented of these sins and became a wonderful Catholic, the weight of these offenses would simply be overwhelming to a marriage. Jacob Marley said, “I wear the chain I made in life, I forged it link by link and yard by yard.” Even if a person repents of these sins, the stress that these offenses would put on a marriage would simply be too much to bear.

So, what do people think? Does anyone else have a point where a person’s past transgressions make them an unsuitable marriage partner, regardless of their current state of holiness?

As a single male, I think your list is entirely reasonable! They are based mostly on safety issues and not adding unnecessary stress (especially regarding kids, exes, and legal problems) to the marriage. And the previous marriage/divorce is one regarding eligibility in the first place; why good Catholic girls reject good eligible Catholic men for ineligible men baffles me.

As far as the “forgiveness” issue, sacramental forgiveness does not always make someone compatible. Confession does not make one unpregnant or take away STDs or child support payments. All it does is restore sanctifying grace. Period. We need to stop using flowery language of sacramental theology to lay guilt trips on people to take on an incompatible spouses.

Another statistic I heard from the archdiocesan right-to-life director is that the lowest rate of divorce is among two people who are virgins on their wedding night, so if you are a virgin you are risking a statistically higher rate of divorce if you become unequally yoked with a non-virgin.

 

[JezuUfamTobie]

Even in my imperfect situation I still would not marry a man with young kids if those kids have any visitation or residential time with their mother.

I just wanted to update and state that I am so considering eating those words.

How does that quote go? If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans for the future?

So watch out, Lucy!

 

[katybird]

I think your list is pretty reasonable… especially since you explained the child out of wedlock more completely. Would you feel differently if he had sole custody of the child?

I was “fortunate” in that I was able to make it clear that I was the sole parent of my young son (I’m talking about my profile on Catholic Match.) I had plenty of interest from lots of gentlemen, and some of them - including my now-husband - told me that knowing there was nobody else in the picture made it easier to swallow.

I’m sure many men would not be OK with marrying a woman who had a child, already. I never worried about that. I was specifically looking for a man who WANTED to be a father to my son. So what if such men are in the minority? I only wanted marry ONE man! I didn’t think of it as “Oh, I hope he’ll like me IN SPITE OF my son.” I actually thought of him as my greatest asset.

Anyway, I had some similar concerns to yours… I worried about violence, addiction, and bad credit. But, I also prayed to St. Joseph. I focused more on the things I did want - I specifically asked to find a man who was kind, loving, humble, and willing to be a good provider and father. So, that’s exactly what I got!

As for past sinful behavior… I was actually RELIEVED when he told me some of the things he’d done. It made me feel more comfortable around him, somehow. I know those things are in his past. I’m glad we trust one another to be good spouses and parents today.

 

[RedSoxFan]

When we marry, we have to expect a certain level of imperfections and a certain amount of history. However, at what point does a person’s past transgressions mean that they should no longer be considered as a possible spouse?

A few weeks ago, I posted on the forums saying that I would not marry a man who had fathered a child out of wedlock, no matter how good a person he became afterwards. To me, this is a non-negotiable. A few other non-negotiables are
1 Having spent time in jail or being convicted of a felony.
2 Having a previous marriage and divorce.
3 Coercing a former girlfriend to have an abortion.
4 A history of violent behavior.

To me, the presence of any of these things would cause me to immediatly break off the relationship and look for someone else. To me, even if the person repented of these sins and became a wonderful Catholic, the weight of these offenses would simply be overwhelming to a marriage. Jacob Marley said, “I wear the chain I made in life, I forged it link by link and yard by yard.” Even if a person repents of these sins, the stress that these offenses would put on a marriage would simply be too much to bear.

So, what do people think? Does anyone else have a point where a person’s past transgressions make them an unsuitable marriage partner, regardless of their current state of holiness?

Well this is certainly an interesting topic. Here is my thinking and why. I necessarily wouldn’t have made the choices that you made given that these things are in the past and have been forgiven by God (assuming the person had confession).
Still, it’s your choice about whom you are to marry. If it would not be possible to forget about someone’s past then your probably saving the both of you trouble in the long run. That would be a major kink in your marriage and would almost make it unbearable. In this case it’s good that you know your limits.

 

[sanctamaria17]

I would marry a man who had a kid out of wedlock if he was willing to sin no more and he did his best to be a good father to his child and of course, it was God’s will that we married. I know a lot of people who had kids out of wedlock and who work hard to be good parents to their children. The same goes for former addicts, etc.

I would never consider marrying a former child molester or anyone who coerced a woman into abortion or anything like that. First, I want to be a doctor (possibly pediatrics, I feel called to help children) and those are the kind of people I’d be mandated by the state to report to the authorities. I also wouldn’t want anything like that to happen to my own children and I don’t want to put myself in harm’s way either. I’m a very forgiving person and cannot hold a grudge against people, however, there’s a difference between forgiving someone and putting your life or the lives of your future children at risk. Some of these people are very clever and know how to manipulate a person into thinking “they’ve changed”. And with sexual crimes, those who commit those are very likely to commit them again and again. If they could do something like that to another woman or to a child they don’t know, what’s stopping them from doing that to their own family?