Pastor bullying laity

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Huh? When did the norm become standing rather than kneeling? Did I miss something?
 
As I understand it, the Bishop (the local one) has the right to change this norm from kneeling to standing. So maybe your are not aware because your bishop didn’t change a thing?

Actually, it is hard for me to imagine how anyone (a bishop or a priest) would want to fuss about THIS issue, even for the sake of uniformity - I have some more pressing issues in mind… and I always thought Germans had a controlle issue 😃
 
Well, maybe the Pope’s new Motu Proprio will cheer him up. Priests like this just love the Tridentine Mass!
 
I have always and will continue to kneel. In searching for a church in AR more like my LA church I’ve been to several - one where 70% stood and the rest of us knelt - nothing was said. I have trouble with the church closest to me when everyone stands at one time until it is that pew’s time to go up for the Eucharist - I remain on my knees until the pew in front is emptying - no one has every said anything to me - if they did I would not be back. I feel if the Bishops want to change things they can but that they can’t force you to do it only to say this is the way they want it. There are some “man made” things in the church I have trouble adjusting to - not kneeling is one of them.:signofcross:
 
MJE said:
At first I gave Father a ‘pass’ of sorts thinking it was mental/emotional problems he was not in control of but when the other priest was there concelebrating I realized there is some manipulation and bullying going on. He is well into his 60’s so there must be a ‘history’. I have an article from July 2003 Volume 79 No. 29 by Ellen Rossini Register Correspondent The National Catholic Reg. re: this issue of the 7 diocese changing the norm of kneeling to standing. Archbishop Brunette, of Seattle, is quoted throughout the article. He states that most of the letters of complaint re: standing “show a not very well developed understanding of Eucharistic theology”. “They . . . .show somebody is doing something from habit but not with understanding for why they did it.” The Archbishop also stated in this article “. . .no one will be disciplined for not standing”. I wrote Father a letter weeks ago w/ documentation re: the dubium etc and his reply was more of a form-letter because he did not address my question or issue. There are several parishes in this general area that have not implemented the standing and they are packed to the gills and the $ flows in. My pastor is in the early stages of a capital campaign to renovate this very old church. Oh, and the Knights of Col. have been @ this parish for 100 + years and Father kicked them out for challenging him on a $ issue. Very insignificant amount of $ too.
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I am confused by this post. I have written to Archbishop Brunette about several parishes in Seattle that do not have kneelers. In his letter to me he stated clearly that the faithful are still expected to kneel and that Churches that have been built without kneelers will be instructed to install them within the next few years. He also restated this position on The Bishop’s Hour on Sacred Heart Radio. In addition, his new document to define liturgical rules was published and sent to all the parishes a few months ago. It clearly states that the faithful are to kneel from the Santcus to the Great Amen.

I highly recommend you write the Archbishop. Keep your letter short and focused on the facts only. He will reply. He has replied to every one of mine!👍
 
I know someone who is diabetic and has two bad knees which will not be replaced because of the complications inherent in the diabetic condition. This person ignores all directions regarding sitting, kneeling and standing. Whatever is most comfortable at the time is the posture appropriate to her.
Father would be ignored just as the rubrics are currently being ignored. She has the utmost reverence for God and the sacrifice of the Mass. She just doesn’t much believe in agrivating an already extremely uncomfortable condition.

Matthew
 
You think you have it bad. We have churches in this area with no kneelers that sit after the sanctus and remain sitting during the concentration and communion as if they were home watching TV. Seats are so close you could kneel if you wanted to. They are these “utility building” churches that you can have Mass Sunday morning and close circuit football with a keg of beer Sunday afternoon in the same space. Pastor says it is too bad if you don’t like it.
 
This priest is, as all priests are, engaged in heated spiritual battle. I dare say he isn’t faring too well. Any priest who can simultaneously hold the Eucharist in his hand and berate his flock, IMO, is struggling with his belief in the Real Presence.

Pray for him. In the meantime, I would go elsewhere if possible, and most definitely I’d become one of the bishop’s regular correspondants until I had a sense that the priest was being engaged over his behavior. (This to me is true charity. He obviously needs some help.)
 
Lots of mixed advice. Here are some thoughts to the OP:

Things have changed in Portland (OR?) since the original directives were issued so my experiences may not apply. I will say that Bud Bunce was probably about the only responsive character I encountered at the archdiocese when trying to resolve a similar issue peacefully as I watched it really damage my marriage.

Individual priests rotate through the Vicar for clergy’s office which deals with the liturgical issues – and over the years having seen valid complaints about seriously reprobate priests by several people – this is my view:

Any comments made will be found out (somehow) by your priest. (He may be paraniod anyway). The details will probably not be complete – but in trying to deal with the issue, a question will be asked or a comment made to the priest. A time lag will occur where the priest can “defend” themselves. (Its only right, the alternative would be a terrible burden on the honest priests…)

If you can’t take the heat of an argumentative priest – get out of the way – if you have other family members who are emotionally marginal – think about it.

Part of the issue is that every priest who gets to be vicar for clergy will likely be in charge of a parish again – and who knows who will be vicar for clergy next. ( If the priests were perfect, we wouldn’t have had the scandals in the first place… Scandals are unavoidable according even to our Lord.)

My approach was simply to ask for permission to do as the priest asked (since the dubium of George was not public knowledge, and I had been instructed to stand by another priest + the bishop’s letter at the time.).

I don’t blame the local priest for being upset – and I am not going to explain all the circumstances which forced me to even attempt to talk to the archdiocese – The parish was so bad before that I have been told by multiple parishoners that death threats were made against the previous priest. (Some of these same parishoners refused to go to the archdiocese for fear of the laity in power at the parish. etc. )

If your priest is that uptight – what was the parish like that he came from before?

I am so sorry to hear this is still going on – out of charity, though, at least you can stand if you so choose – you’re not in a bind against the bishop that way.

As Fr. Groeshel notes on receiving communion in the hand, which he strongly disagrees with; Like a good soldier I give communion in the hand. The same is true about standing at the agnus Dei.

If you have the time and the thick skin to get the rights issue resolved – great. Otherwise, just spend some extra time praying in front of the blessed sacrament or even the tabernacle if that is all you have access to.

Pax Christi &
Best wishes.
 
tom.wineman said:
You think you have it bad. We have churches in this area with no kneelers that sit after the Sanctus and remain sitting during the concentration and communion as if they were home watching TV. Seats are so close you could kneel if you wanted to. They are these “utility building” churches that you can have Mass Sunday morning and close circuit football with a keg of beer Sunday afternoon in the same space. Pastor says it is too bad if you don’t like it.
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Well you could kneel anyway.😃 We did this at a Mass celebrated in an auditorium/ Tight squeeze but we did it. Now if you wear long skirts or baggy pants you can always use those foam knee thingies to pad the old bones.😃
 
MJE said:
The directive to stand after the Ecce Agnus Dei and after H. Communion has caused much distress in my parish. I know the bishop has the authority to adjust the norm of kneeling but I also am aware of the dubium posed by Cardinal George and the answer of Cardinal Arinze re: this issue. Last month at a daily Mass our pastor singled out a woman and publically chastised her from the altar for kneeling. She eventually went to talk to him. Well, again, he stopped in the middle of Mass and yelled “there are 2 people still kneeling”. Actually, one of them was sitting because she cannot stand for a long time. The pastor was red faced and looked totally out of control. She told me she made an appt with Father and Father told her if she sits she has to sit in the front pews so he can watch her to make sure she is sitting and not kneeling and then without a goodbye got up and left the room. The next day an elderly pastor in the area concelebrated and there was no ‘yelling’ from the altar. But the next day, a couple, not from our parish, and sitting in the back were kneeling after the Ecce Agnu Dei and when the man approached father for Holy Communion father yelled, red faced and all; “Did I see you kneeling back there?” The man calmly replies, “Do you persecute Christians?” and father yelled back “Yes I do!”. I mean the guy is yelling while holding the Blessed Sacrament in his hands.Father announced at Sunday Mass that if you are “70 and weak you can sit” but no kneeling. I get a nervous stomach thinking about attending Mass in my parish so I will start going 5 miles further to attend Mass.
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I don’t if it would be possible, but, if it were me, I would try to videotape that part of the Mass, then forward it to the Bishop. Shouldn’t be tolerated in God’s house.
 
Jesus doesnt care about your posture!Its what in your heart that counts!And kneeling is always good because its a way of showing respect!I think your pastor is probably confused and you should go to Mass somewhere else.
 
I don’t if it would be possible, but, if it were me, I would try to videotape that part of the Mass, then forward it to the Bishop. Shouldn’t be tolerated in God’s house.
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If you do that, make sure the video doesn’t have audio. A dumb Oregon law can bite you otherwise…
Telephone calls are a separate issue… 🙂
 
I won’t video tape this mess. As I said, he is too old not to have a history someplace. One does not pick up these traits @ 65 yrs of age; unless there was a stroke or?
 
paramedicgirl said:
:rotfl: Not in this day and age. How about chairs that look like they belong in a community hall and a carpeted hard floor? Makes for good penance, though, kneeling on the hard floor.🙂
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I agree, i love the chance to kneel on a hard floor.

In this case, i’d simply kneel.

When confronted and asked “Why?” I would simply respond “I am both worshiping the present Lord and praying for YOU. Each activity is better done kneeling.”

If he then demanded me to stand I would calmly state that he lacks the authority to change the ruling of the USCCB which has stated clearly against his current opinion.
 
promethius95945 said:
I agree, i love the chance to kneel on a hard floor.

In this case, i’d simply kneel.

When confronted and asked “Why?” I would simply respond “I am both worshiping the present Lord and praying for YOU. Each activity is better done kneeling.”

If he then demanded me to stand I would calmly state that he lacks the authority to change the ruling of the USCCB which has stated clearly against his current opinion.
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That’s good, but if you do that – quote the Vatican’s congregation for divine worship – they have authority that the USCCB doesn’t! 😉
The USCCB actually hasn’t been very supportive in this at all…

The Bishop is superior to rulings of the USCCB unless the pope signs on to something overruling it – it was a dubium (eg. a ?) to “Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments” CDWDS. (Isn’t that a mouthful that no-one would believe you if you said it? !) that secures the worshipper’s right in this matter.
 
MJE said:
Actually we did attend H. Rosary for years when our children were young and needed CCD and there was much confusion in the Seattle archdiocese under Archbishop Hunthousen (sp?).And things got stable here so we have been here for 15 yrs now.
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If you are that close, come on over to Camas! st-thomascamas.org/ We would love to have you. Kneeling galore! And, we will have a TLM in September.

Pax,
Robert

PS I am sorry for what you are going through. I experienced some parishes like that in California, but I didn’t know we had that problem here in Washington.
 
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