Pastor discouraging genuflecting

[Bonnie]

I got such a fast answer to my question about kneeling, I’ll try again with genuflecting.

Our pastor has stopped short of forbidding genuflection, but he is strongly encouraging people to bow to the altar & simply nod their heads when receiving our Lord in the Eucharist. He doesn’t want us to genuflect to the Tabernacle (which is off to one side) at all unless we are walking directly in front of it.

He quotes from the GIRM, but I’ve misplaced my copy so I can’t check what he’s leaving out with his ellipses.

Is there anything from the Vatican or bishops that is in support of genuflecting?

(On a side note: a few years ago my husband & I attended Mass in another city. Afterwards, we stopped to shake hands with the priest & told him we were from out-of-town. He proceeded to chew me out royally for having the nerve to genuflect in HIS parish! I told him he would need to have signs up for visitors. We’ve never been back. When I’m in that city I drive to the next town over to attend Mass.)

(On another side note: my husband wondered why the priest is picking on the few of us who kneel & genuflect, but not saying anything to the many Our Father handholders or those who talk to each other during Mass. )

 

[John_Lilburne]

I got such a fast answer to my question about kneeling, I’ll try again with genuflecting.

Our pastor has stopped short of forbidding genuflection, but he is strongly encouraging people to bow to the altar & simply nod their heads when receiving our Lord in the Eucharist. He doesn’t want us to genuflect to the Tabernacle (which is off to one side) at all unless we are walking directly in front of it.

He quotes from the GIRM, but I’ve misplaced my copy so I can’t check what he’s leaving out with his ellipses.
…

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“274. … If, however, the tabernacle with the Most Blessed Sacrament is present in the sanctuary, the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers genuflect when they approach the altar and when they depart from it, but not during the celebration of Mass itself.
Otherwise all who pass before the Most Blessed Sacrament genuflect, unless they are moving in procession.”

“160. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.
The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister.”

 

[Lady_Marchmain]

Laity, regular folks coming in for mass, do NOT bow to the ALTAR. This trend is spreading like wildfire and it’s ridiculous. The priest bows (and kisses) the altar, servers bow at certain points, etc. Not those participating at Mass.

I just wrote a reply to someone else about genuflecting, when, where and how, and don’t want to type it all again, so I’ll just say, you are correct to genuflect to the Blessed Sacrament upon entering and exiting the church, if by “off to one side” you mean it is visible (such as in a corner of the sanctuary).

Genuflect, there is nothing he can do to stop you and you will not only be doing the right thing, but being a witness to the priest and your children.

 

[Corki]

Laity, regular folks coming in for mass, do NOT bow to the ALTAR. This trend is spreading like wildfire and it’s ridiculous. The priest bows (and kisses) the altar, servers bow at certain points, etc. Not those participating at Mass.

This is correct as long as the tabernacle is visible. In some locations, it has become a 'trend" to place the tabernacle where it is not visible at all from the pews. When you are in a Church like that, the proper gesture of reverence is a bow toward the altar.

I’m not sure it’s written anywhere but that’s what we were taught is the proper thing to do if you can’t physically genuflect too (ie elderly, bad knees, leg in a cast, etc.)

 

[GKCT]

Bonnie,

Did the priest speak to you about genuflecting as you were coming into church or as you were going up to receive Communion? I would never not genuflect coming into church or leaving for that matter, no matter what the priest says.

Some don’t want you “taking the time” to genuflect on receiving Communion, they claim it slows things down, which I think is ridiculous.

Back in the day when we received Communion at the altar rail, we all kneeled down, it was more reverent and no one complained about time. It seems that everyone today in always in such a hurry–even the priests.

The only time I do not genuflect on coming into church is when the tabernacle door is open, there are no consecrated hosts then.

 

[adrift]

The Bishops are the ones who decide what action should be taken. They determined that it should be a bow. I perfer the genuflection but they have the right to determine what is to be done and so I follow that and not my own preference.

 

[Lady_Marchmain]

The Bishops are the ones who decide what action should be taken. They determined that it should be a bow. I perfer the genuflection but they have the right to determine what is to be done and so I follow that and not my own preference.

That is incorrect regarding this issue. Please be aware that your statement is a misinterpretation of the bishop’s authority.

A bishop may state it is the PREFERRED method in his diocese that those entering church bow to the Blessed Sacrament, but NO BISHOP, including the Holy Father (!), may deny a Catholic his or her right to genuflect (proper time, place, etc of course) before the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[Lady_Marchmain]

This is correct as long as the tabernacle is visible. In some locations, it has become a 'trend" to place the tabernacle where it is not visible at all from the pews. When you are in a Church like that, the proper gesture of reverence is a bow toward the altar.

Sorry, that is incorrect. A bow toward the altar by laity has never been a tradition or customary practice in the Catholic Church until very recently when it was implemented as an underhanded way to increasingly take attention away from the Tabernacle. What is the point to bow to a slab of wood that no longer even contains a relic? I know, “to show respect for the communion meal.”

Sounds cute, but it’s wrong, there is no “proper gesture of reverence” FOR A TABLE! Just as wrong and wacky as holding hands during the Our Father. A blatantly foolish practice that innocent people like you are duped into performing because a misguided priest tells you so.

Reverence - YES! To whom are we showing reverence in a Catholic church? God present in the Blessed Sacrament. So if there is no tabernacle, there is no need for ANY bow, to a table, crucifix or whatever. Your entire posture and disposition is reverent, that’s enough.

Please see if you notice a trend here, in the OP, or in your own parish:

1. Tabernacle is moved to the side.
2. Genuflecting is discouraged, and becomes awkward with the Blessed Sacrament not front and center.
3. With the Tabernacle now being pretty much ignored, suddenly we are told to focus on the altar.
4. Hey, now we are told it’s actually “proper” to bow to the altar!
5. Step five you ought to be able to guess - hey, didn’t there used to be something over there called a tabernacle?

The GOAL (BELIEVE IT!) is to replace the Tabernacle with the altar (which will soon start to be called, ala paganism, “The Table”.)

There are lots of young people on this blog, and it is impressive and inspiring to see their devotion and love of the Faith. However, some of us old grey-hairs have been watching these little shifty maneuvers since Vatican II and let me assure you, and I’m very sad to say it, when you hear a priest tell you to do something and it’s not in the missal, not in the GIRM, and you never heard of it growing up, and it’s now all the rage in progressive parishes, it’s probably wrong.

 

[PA650]

Sorry, that is incorrect. A bow toward the altar by laity has never been a tradition or customary practice in the Catholic Church until very recently when it was implemented as an underhanded way to increasingly take attention away from the Tabernacle. What is the point to bow to a slab of wood that no longer even contains a relic? I know, “to show respect for the communion meal.”

Sounds cute, but it’s wrong, there is no “proper gesture of reverence” FOR A TABLE! Just as wrong and wacky as holding hands during the Our Father. A blatantly foolish practice that innocent people like you are duped into performing because a misguided priest tells you so.

Reverence - YES! To whom are we showing reverence in a Catholic church? God present in the Blessed Sacrament. So if there is no tabernacle, there is no need for ANY bow, to a table, crucifix or whatever. Your entire posture and disposition is reverent, that’s enough.

Please see if you notice a trend here, in the OP, or in your own parish:

1. Tabernacle is moved to the side.
2. Genuflecting is discouraged, and becomes awkward with the Blessed Sacrament not front and center.
3. With the Tabernacle now being pretty much ignored, suddenly we are told to focus on the altar.
4. Hey, now we are told it’s actually “proper” to bow to the altar!
5. Step five you ought to be able to guess - hey, didn’t there used to be something over there called a tabernacle?

The GOAL (BELIEVE IT!) is to replace the Tabernacle with the altar (which will soon start to be called, ala paganism, “The Table”.)

There are lots of young people on this blog, and it is impressive and inspiring to see their devotion and love of the Faith. However, some of us old grey-hairs have been watching these little shifty maneuvers since Vatican II and let me assure you, and I’m very sad to say it, when you hear a priest tell you to do something and it’s not in the missal, not in the GIRM, and you never heard of it growing up, and it’s now all the rage in progressive parishes, it’s probably wrong.

I do understand your particular perspective, but I see no issue showing reverence to the altar of sacrifice when passing it by when crossing the nave of a church, among other movements that could occur in a church. My particular parish during the aftermath of Vatican II moved the high altar with the tabernacle to the side of the sanctuary, albeit the tabernacle is clearly noticeable to any of the parishioners that enter the church. Moreover, parishioners and clergy genuflect to the tabernacle at the side of the sanctuary and bow to the altar situated in the center of the sanctuary. In the end, I don’t attend a ‘progressive’ parish that has moved the tabernacle away from the sanctuary in order to place emphasize on anything else, yet I do implore you not to generalize some of the renovated or newly constructed sanctuaries found in churches today–many are simply based on the early church sanctuaries found in the Church in comparison to the Tridentine sanctuary arrangement. Whether such a practice is worthwhile or simply antiquarianism, I’ll leave that to another discussion.

History of the Christian Altar:
newadvent.org/cathen/01362a.htm

 

[Corki]

Sorry, that is incorrect. A bow toward the altar by laity has never been a tradition or customary practice in the Catholic Church until very recently when it was implemented as an underhanded way to increasingly take attention away from the Tabernacle. What is the point to bow to a slab of wood that no longer even contains a relic? I know, “to show respect for the communion meal.”

Please read what I wrote. The bow to the altar is ONLY when the tabernacle is not visible. It does not take any attention away from the tabernacle, it adds a sign of revererence. A bow recognizes the altar as the place of sacrifice, not to show respect for the meal.

I think it is very disrespectful to refer to the altar as a “slab of wood” regardless of the material used. (BTW, around here, most of the altars are marble and the majority have relics)

 

[japhy]

A bow toward the altar by laity has never been a tradition or customary practice in the Catholic Church until very recently when it was implemented as an underhanded way to increasingly take attention away from the Tabernacle.

You will, of course, provide some documentary evidence that shows that laity never bowed to the altar until very recently. Is your argument that kneeling and/or genuflecting has been the constant historical practice of the Roman Rite?

Is there something about ordained priests that makes it okay for them to bow to the altar, but not okay for the laity to bow to the altar?

What is the point to bow to a slab of wood that no longer even contains a relic? I know, “to show respect for the communion meal.” Sounds cute, but it’s wrong, there is no “proper gesture of reverence” FOR A TABLE!

No matter what the altar is made of, it is a sign of Christ, and therefore – whether it contains relics or not – it is worthy of our veneration: a profound bow (and a kiss from the clergy). Who on earth explains the veneration of an altar as “show[ing] respect for the communion meal”?

So if there is no tabernacle, there is no need for ANY bow, to a table, crucifix or whatever. Your entire posture and disposition is reverent, that’s enough.

It sounds like you are completely unaware of the sign value of the altar; let me repeat: the altar is a sign of Christ, Who is the priest, victim, and altar of sacrifice.

Hey, now we are told it’s actually “proper” to bow to the altar! The GOAL (BELIEVE IT!) is to replace the Tabernacle with the altar (which will soon start to be called, ala paganism, “The Table”.)

I hate to disappoint you, but the altar has been called a table by Christians for close to 2000 years. And the altar-table has been receiving veneration (with kisses and bows – pun intended!) for quite a long time.

when you hear a priest tell you to do something and it’s not in the missal, not in the GIRM…

From the GIRM…
49. When they reach the sanctuary, the priest, the deacon, and the ministers reverence the altar with a profound bow. As an expression of veneration, moreover, the priest and deacon then kiss the altar itself; as the occasion suggests, the priest also incenses the cross and the altar.

1. A bow signifies reverence and honor shown to the persons themselves or to the signs that represent them. There are two kinds of bows: a bow of the head and a bow of the body. …] A bow of the body, that is to say a profound bow, is made to the altar …]

 

[ConstantineTG]

I got such a fast answer to my question about kneeling, I’ll try again with genuflecting.

Our pastor has stopped short of forbidding genuflection, but he is strongly encouraging people to bow to the altar & simply nod their heads when receiving our Lord in the Eucharist. He doesn’t want us to genuflect to the Tabernacle (which is off to one side) at all unless we are walking directly in front of it.

He quotes from the GIRM, but I’ve misplaced my copy so I can’t check what he’s leaving out with his ellipses.

Is there anything from the Vatican or bishops that is in support of genuflecting?

(On a side note: a few years ago my husband & I attended Mass in another city. Afterwards, we stopped to shake hands with the priest & told him we were from out-of-town. He proceeded to chew me out royally for having the nerve to genuflect in HIS parish! I told him he would need to have signs up for visitors. We’ve never been back. When I’m in that city I drive to the next town over to attend Mass.)

(On another side note: my husband wondered why the priest is picking on the few of us who kneel & genuflect, but not saying anything to the many Our Father handholders or those who talk to each other during Mass. )

In the norms on the GIRM as established by the Episcopal Conference in the United States, it is stated that a gesture of reverence be made prior to receiving the Eucharist standing. The gesture for the US has been determined as a deep and profound bow.

 

[promethius]

Reverence - YES! To whom are we showing reverence in a Catholic church? God present in the Blessed Sacrament. So if there is no tabernacle, there is no need for ANY bow, to a table, crucifix or whatever. Your entire posture and disposition is reverent, that’s enough.

I take it you don’t go to Good Friday service and venerate the cross then… after all, it’s just a piece of wood, why would you KISS it? It’s not even the real cross, so it’s not part of the Paschal Sacrifice in the same way that the altar is.

I also take it that you hold that God was wrong to tell Moses to remove his shoes because the very ground he walked on was holy. Why would God ask Moses to show a sign of reverence for GROUND??? What a silly God!

So, what is wrong with a profound bow to show respect to God for the fact that we are entering His house and His place? I’m not bowing to the altar for the sake of it being a table (which, by the way, translate altar into english some time and see what comes up). I’m bowing as a sign that I recognize that I’m in God’s place. Heck, I’d remove my shoes if the stink of it wouldn’t kill the parishoners around me!

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Sorry, that is incorrect. A bow toward the altar by laity has never been a tradition or customary practice in the Catholic Church until very recently when it was implemented as an underhanded way to increasingly take attention away from the Tabernacle. What is the point to bow to a slab of wood that no longer even contains a relic? I know, “to show respect for the communion meal.”

Sounds cute, but it’s wrong, there is no “proper gesture of reverence” FOR A TABLE! Just as wrong and wacky as holding hands during the Our Father. A blatantly foolish practice that innocent people like you are duped into performing because a misguided priest tells you so.

Reverence - YES! To whom are we showing reverence in a Catholic church? God present in the Blessed Sacrament. So if there is no tabernacle, there is no need for ANY bow, to a table, crucifix or whatever. Your entire posture and disposition is reverent, that’s enough.

Please see if you notice a trend here, in the OP, or in your own parish:

1. Tabernacle is moved to the side.
2. Genuflecting is discouraged, and becomes awkward with the Blessed Sacrament not front and center.
3. With the Tabernacle now being pretty much ignored, suddenly we are told to focus on the altar.
4. Hey, now we are told it’s actually “proper” to bow to the altar!
5. Step five you ought to be able to guess - hey, didn’t there used to be something over there called a tabernacle?

The GOAL (BELIEVE IT!) is to replace the Tabernacle with the altar (which will soon start to be called, ala paganism, “The Table”.)

There are lots of young people on this blog, and it is impressive and inspiring to see their devotion and love of the Faith. However, some of us old grey-hairs have been watching these little shifty maneuvers since Vatican II and let me assure you, and I’m very sad to say it, when you hear a priest tell you to do something and it’s not in the missal, not in the GIRM, and you never heard of it growing up, and it’s now all the rage in progressive parishes, it’s probably wrong.

A genuflection is the CORRECT sign of reverence to the Blessed Sacrament: on the Altar at Mass; when exposed for veneration; when reserved in the tabernacle.

A profound bow is the CORRECT sign of reverence to ALL altars which do not have the Blessed Sacrament on them! The altar is a sign of CHRIST. It does not matter what material an altar is made from. Many DO still contain relics.

A profound bow is the CORRECT sign of reverence to a crucifix; except from the celebration of the Lord’s Passion on Good Friday until the Paschal Vigil when the correct sign of reverence is a genuflection.

These are normal Catholic signs of reverence to the Blessed Sacrament, the altar, and a crucifix.

If you claim these facts are incorrect it is incumbent on you to provide evidence to the contrary.

It is also proper to bow to images of Our Lady and the saints with a simple bow.

 

[adrift]

That is incorrect regarding this issue. Please be aware that your statement is a misinterpretation of the bishop’s authority.

A bishop may state it is the PREFERRED method in his diocese that those entering church bow to the Blessed Sacrament, but NO BISHOP, including the Holy Father (!), may deny a Catholic his or her right to genuflect (proper time, place, etc of course) before the Blessed Sacrament.

Provide a source please.

 

[EasterJoy]

Your pastor presumably isn’t talking about genuflecting when you pass in front of the tabernacle or take your pew before or after Mass starts. He’s talking about the rituals to be observed during the Mass itself. During the Mass itself, attention is to be focused on the Altar of Sacrifice. It is in the GIRM because it fits what is happening. The proscribed ritual reflects the reality, and the focus of reality during Mass is not at the tabernacle.

How can this be? Because Mass isn’t a lot of little things going by. The Mass is a single act of worship, albeit one that unfolds in two main parts. The direction to focus on the altar from the start to the finish of Mass is a recognition that* the entire Mass is of the same fabric as the moment of the elevation*, when I trust your attention is nowhere else but at the altar. I have also heard the ambo referred to as the altar of the Word…another reference to the single act of worship going on, and the fact that the entire Church for all time and all of Heaven is arrayed about the altar during Mass.

If the King is holding his wedding feast at such and so a place and requires your attention there, you would surely do as you are directed by the stewards He has chosen for the feast. He has chosen them to direct how you ought to observe the reality of His sacrificial offering of his life. On that altar, the lives of the baptised are covered by the death and resurrection of the Lord and offered to God the Father, hidden and made perfect by being enfolded into his sacrificial offering. It is not for you to decide that you would rather attend him in His audience hall, instead, where he holds court outside of the moment of the feast. He has given the office of proscribing the liturgy to someone other than you. You do well to be obedient to that.

 

[Bonnie]

Your pastor presumably isn’t talking about genuflecting when you pass in front of the tabernacle or take your pew before or after Mass starts.

He says we may genuflect when passing in front of the tabernacle (which is partially hidden behind a slatted wall so most people don’t bother), but he IS saying we shouldn’t genuflect when going in or out of the pew. But again, most people don’t genuflect at any time, so he’s addressing just a handful of us.

 

[Corki]

He says we may genuflect when passing in front of the tabernacle (which is partially hidden behind a slatted wall so most people don’t bother), but he IS saying we shouldn’t genuflect when going in or out of the pew. But again, most people don’t genuflect at any time, so he’s addressing just a handful of us.

Can you see the tabernacle when entering and exiting the pew?

If yes, I would continue to genuflect.

If no, I understand your pastor’s position. Too many people genuflect without even glancing at the tabernacle. The gesture has been divorced from its meaning.

 

[adrift]

Can you see the tabernacle when entering and exiting the pew?

If yes, I would continue to genuflect.

If no, I understand your pastor’s position. Too many people genuflect without even glancing at the tabernacle. The gesture has been divorced from its meaning.

We do things out of habit. I still start to genuflect to the side altar where the tabernacle was. Now it is in the center.:extrahappy:

 

[EasterJoy]

The tabernacle ought to be in a prominent place, so it is unfortunate that it is not so in your church. Even so, sometimes the prominent place isn’t directly behind the altar, nor even that close to it.

At Mt. Angel Abbey, the tabernacle is prominent but off to the side of the abbey church. The monks usually come in via a walkway that runs behind their choir stalls (which are at center) but toward the center of the church from the transept (the side section of church) where the tabernacle is. They make it a point to walk over and genuflect before the Blessed Sacrament before going to their stalls for Mass or the Hours. Then they come around and bow to the altar before entering their stalls.

IOW, the question of bow or genuflect need not be an either/or thing.

It would be edifying if the handful of you were to purposefully move to a spot in front of the obscured tabernacle, genuflect, and only then go to your pew and bow to the altar before entering it, as the monks do. There is nothing to complain about with that. It would actually highlight where the tabernacle is. I think the vistitors would thank you.