Pastor told to apologize for participating in Newtown vigil?

[CalCatholic]

Pastor Morris wrote. " In the end, I believed my participation to be, not an act of joint worship, but an act of community chaplaincy. Chaplains are expected to give faithful witness under circumstances which are less than ecclesiastically perfect, even as their fellow chaplains may proclaim a different witness."

I wholeheartedly agree. He should not have apologized.

Pastor Morris made a pastoral decision for his flock (of which he lost one!) This vigil was intended to help heal the community which lost 26 souls. I think he made a very Christian decision to help heal the hurting, despite who was in attendance (like Jesus did in the company of tax collectors, pharisees, prostitutes, etc.)

 

[hn160]

That’s your opinion. But again, you are Catholic, not LCMS. I think its very presumptuous and uncharitable for Christians of other traditions, churches, communions, and denominations to judge the policies and rules of other Christian bodies simply because it doesn’t make sense to them. Closed communion in the Catholic Church may offend people, does that mean the Catholic Church is wrong? I believe women should be allowed to be ordained, does that mean the Catholic Church is wrong because it offends me? If you are not LCMS, why concern yourselves with it?

The problem that you have when it comes to receiving communion in a LC-MS church is you have not read the Lutheran Confessions or theology to know what you are receiving in Holy Communion. We do it in Christian Love because we do not want you to take communion to your harm as St Paul warned. To you, Holy Communion is a symbol at best. The ELCA will let anyone come to Holy Communion. I as a former member of the ELCA had to explain my beliefs and how I was catechized to my LC-MS pastor before he was satisfied before I was allowed to take communion. Usually all non-LC-MS Christians are required to take a 12 week ( 2hrs ) before they are allowed to take communion and only if the agree with Lutheran doctrine. Pastors in the LC-MS are all male.

 

[ltwin]

The problem that you have when it comes to receiving communion in a LC-MS church is you have not read the Lutheran Confessions or theology to know what you are receiving in Holy Communion. We do it in Christian Love because we do not want you to take communion to your harm as St Paul warned. To you, Holy Communion is a symbol at best. The ELCA will let anyone come to Holy Communion. I as a former member of the ELCA had to explain my beliefs and how I was catechized to my LC-MS pastor before he was satisfied before I was allowed to take communion. Usually all non-LC-MS Christians are required to take a 12 week ( 2hrs ) before they are allowed to take communion and only if the agree with Lutheran doctrine. Pastors in the LC-MS are all male.

I was not criticizing the LCMS’s stance on these issues. I was actually defending the LCMS.

 

[ReturningToRome]

Does anyone know what the rules are for our Bishops and Priests in these types of situatons? Does the Catechism speak of syncretism? These types of vigils are common to strengthen communities after national or local tragedies; personally, I think someone speaking authoritatively in the Name of Jesus offers hope. What if NO Christian could be involved due to similar restrictions - no one to offer the only true hope, particularly to those without hope. Certainly, Christians can hear it in their churches, but what about these others whom God loves? (I was LC-MS may years before returning to the Catholic Church).

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m not sure what actually occurred at the interfaith prayer vigil, other than a prayer, it reminded me of Assisi and human respect in a way.

I’m impressed with the quotes from the Lutheran minister in Newtown. Those type of actions renew my faith in God and America.

 

[GaryTaylor]

btw what’s the scriptural issue from Lutheran headquarters?

 

[Eutychus123]

btw what’s the scriptural issue from Lutheran headquarters?

Good Morning Gary. I can see you are up early. How much snow?

Here is a quote from president Harrison’s letter. “1.I believe his participation violated the limits set by Scripture regarding joint worship, particularly with those who reject Jesus (Romans 16:17), and was thus a violation of Article VI of the LCMS Constitution.”

 

[JonNC]

My only knowledge of the LMCS is from one of their websites and it is very very anti Catholic, so it appears that if this is their stand on any church or religion that is not part of their group it seems they think they are the only ture Christians.
I wonder if this applies to the several other Lultheran Synods as well, are LMCS allowed to attend their meetings also? There is much critizism of other Lutheran groups. It appears to the reader that they feel they are the “True Church” and are afraid if one attends another church/denomination or religion service they might convert. Who knows what their thinking is.

As far as I am concerned it is unChristian, especially in this circumstance.

Of course all churches have their own distinct beliefs, however, LMCS is the only one that I know disciplines their clergy for attending interfaith events.

Not trying to be judgemental, it just seems such an unChristian act as it has nothing to do with unity, except in expressing sorrow for the death of the victims.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Bernadette,
On your point that is bolded, a link to the website would be appreciated.

That said, this:
firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/02/roman-catholics-and-confessional-lutherans-explore-deeper-ties

In the United States of America, for example, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod have recently become allies over the subject of religious liberty in the face of the Health and Human Services contraceptive mandate. And in Canada, very tentative discussions between the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops and Lutheran Church–Canada have also begun. These churches are members of the International Lutheran Council, an international association of Lutheran churches known for their more traditional interpretation of the authority of Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions—hence the term “confessional” Lutherans.

BTW, if there is anything “anti-Catholic” that this LCMS member has stated here, please accept my apologies in advance of an example.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Yes, I don’t think the LCMS is being snobbish or looking down on other faiths.

Another analogy would be how the Catholic Church is restrictive in which Christian bodies it considers to be a Church e.g. the various Orthodox Churches. The Catholic Church denies that label to the LCMS and other Protestant denominations, instead labeling them as “ecclesial communities.” Some Protestant writers have been insulted by this, but the policy is based upon careful theological reasoning.

The LCMS’ ban on participation in inter-faith/syncretist services has been controversial before. As I recall, a pastor who was part of the Yankee Stadium memorial service for the victims of 9/11, which was held shortly after the tragedy, was brought up on charges by the synod, despite pre-approval by the synod president.
christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/julyweb-only/7-29-31.0.html

But Catholics of this forum are well aware that many of practices of our Church are controversial to outsiders: e.g. male-only priesthood or priestly celibacy

Thanks, Dale.

Jon

 

[smaneck]

Strange that it’s LCMS. Thats something you’d expect from WELS.

Back in the 1980’s there was a fundamentalist take-over of the Missouri Synod. In their attempt to purge liberal pastors they prohibited inter-faith activities especially attempts to dialogue with Catholics.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I didn’t really understand the Lutheran view on this issue until I read a piece on the Get Religion blog (which is actually about how the media cover religious issues – usually quite badly).

See patheos.com/blogs/getreligion/2013/02/explaining-opposition-to-syncretism-in-a-syncretized-world/

It says in part:

Civil religion has many components but one aspect is that it rather tries to transcend all religions while including them. All religions and all gods are to be equally tolerated, honored and respected everywhere. One of the most important aspects of American civil religion is participation in interfaith — or syncretistic — worship services. These worship services used to be more about “unionism” — the blending of Christian worship — whereas now they explicitly blend in groups that reject Christianity. It turns out that confessional Lutherans not only don’t support unionism and syncretism but it’s a big part of our story about how we came to America. The head of Germany was forcing joint worship (with the Reformed Christians) on confessional Lutherans and we took our doctrinal beliefs so seriously that we were forced to flee.

[snip]

We don’t do interfaith worship because of our understanding of the First Commandment, which is a demand for, as one of our scholars puts it, “a radical and absolute exclusivity in our relationship with the realm of divine beings.” And since the first duty of the believer is to worship, this is most clearly expressed in how we worship.

 

[JonNC]

Back in the 1980’s there was a fundamentalist take-over of the Missouri Synod. In their attempt to purge liberal pastors they prohibited inter-faith activities especially attempts to dialogue with Catholics.

It actually had its roots farther back than the 80’s, in the 70’s. To phrase it a “fundamentalist takeover” is a bit deceptive, since fundamentalism as connotations which don’t apply to Lutheranism, but it is true that the Seminex battle was, mainly, over the use of historical-critical methods of interpreting scripture, and those who opposed this method won out, while the more liberal group eventually joined the new ELCA, for the most part.

Jon

 

[BernadetteM]

Bernadette,
On your point that is bolded, a link to the website would be appreciated.

That said, this:
firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/02/roman-catholics-and-confessional-lutherans-explore-deeper-ties

BTW, if there is anything “anti-Catholic” that this LCMS member has stated here, please accept my apologies in advance of an example.

Jon

Jon,

No one on this thread was anti Catholic, however, if you go to LutherQuest website, they are very anti Catholic in many of their posts. They also seem to judge other Lutherans not of the LMCS synod. Of course they may be part of a small group who act like they represent all the LMCS Lutherans.

I know that you and the Lutherans posting on CAF are charitable towards non Lutherans.

My point is also that we as Christians, like Jesus Himself went out among non believers and this is most important that all Christians, although not of this world, show to the world the same love that Christ showed. If we do not, then how can one expect others to want to follow Christ without Christians showing a loving and moral life to all? We are to be a light to the world, however, we can’t do this without contact with others.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[smaneck]

It actually had its roots farther back than the 80’s, in the 70’s. To phrase it a “fundamentalist takeover” is a bit deceptive, since fundamentalism as connotations which don’t apply to Lutheranism, but it is true that the Seminex battle was, mainly, over the use of historical-critical methods of interpreting scripture, and those who opposed this method won out, while the more liberal group eventually joined the new ELCA, for the most part.

Jon

Yes, in this context I’m using ‘fundamentalism’ to refer to rejection of the methods of higher criticism. But a lot of other things were involved such as a rejection of the attempt on the part of liberal pastors to dialogue with their Catholic counterparts. I had a lot of friends who were pastors in the Missouri Synod at the time, and I think most of them did eventually join the ELCA but they stuck with it for a decade or more after Seminex.

 

[grasscutter]

I apologize if this has already been mentioned. More than half of Newtown’s population is Roman Catholic. Perhaps his superiors had issue with him participate in a Catholic Mass. Anyway, I don’t know all the details, I’m just bringing up a possibility.

 

[yellowbird]

It’s not that they think they are the “True Church.” Look people, every church puts limits on how far their priests and ministers can go when working with representatives of other churches that they are not in communion with and other religions. This is not to be snobby or exclusive. They do what they feel they must to maintain doctrinal integrity. To some, including myself, the LCMS’s policy is too broad. However, I understand the reasons for the policy, just as I understand the reason why the Catholic Church does not allow me as a non-Catholic to take communion with them. They have boundaries that they think are important to set. I’m assuming this pastor knew what the rules were, so its right that he apologize for acting as a representative of the LCMS in an interfaith service that they do not approve of. It’s misleading and lawless. There are other ways to be pastoral besides participating in an interfaith vigil.

I agree.

Their Church, their rules. As Catholics, aren’t we all about others respecting our religious freedoms even if they disagree? I respect the religious freedom of the LCMS to say no interfaith services, as should the Pastor, as a representitive of that Church. It’s good and right that he apologized.

Peace be with the people of Sandy Hook.

 

[CalCatholic]

I apologize if this has already been mentioned. More than half of Newtown’s population is Roman Catholic. Perhaps his superiors had issue with him participate in a Catholic Mass. Anyway, I don’t know all the details, I’m just bringing up a possibility.

Just for info, it was not a Catholic Mass but a inter-faith prayer vigil.

 

[JonNC]

I apologize if this has already been mentioned. More than half of Newtown’s population is Roman Catholic. Perhaps his superiors had issue with him participate in a Catholic Mass. Anyway, I don’t know all the details, I’m just bringing up a possibility.

Catholic mass, Reformed service, non-denom praise and worship, doesn’t matter.

Jon

 

[hn160]

Christians should not be praying with non-Christians and that would include LDS, JW’S, and some others that reject the Holy Trinity. When we pray with non-Christians, it gaves the impression that we are praying to the same God and that all non-Christian Religions are equal to Christianity and their gods are the same as our God. Muslims and Jews do not have the same god, theirs is monotheist and ours is Trinitarian.

 

[smaneck]

Muslims and Jews do not have the same god, theirs is monotheist and ours is Trinitarian.

Hmmm. I’ve not seen a Christian so explicitly admit that Christians are not monotheists before.