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TShawn
Guest
Amen, Annn!
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cargau
Guest
I am sorry for your struggle. But, we all have crosses to bear. Some more than others. The church teches what is morally right. We as God’s children must attempt to model our lives based on these teachings because that is God’s will. I won’t pretend to minimize your pain, but at the same time you must not give in to the temptations before you.
If you are looking for Catholics to celebrate the gay lifestyle, it won’t happen. It can’t. Anymore than the church could celebrate pornography, drug abuse or adultry. Some people may be predisposed to these behaviors, too. They may struggle to live up to God’s will. You are not the only one.
I am not being heartless. Trust me, you and your walk are very much in my prayers. I, too think that more should be done for people stuggling with same sex attraction or transgender. Stay firm in your resolve to love God.
Please know, that we are all sinners on a sometimes arduous journey that will hopefully lead us to heaven.
God speed…
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Annn
Guest
Have you not read the thread? This is not about a homosexual poster, but rather a transgender one.
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GladCatholic
Guest
See the thread title, LGBT, and the following quote from the OP:
“What I would like to see happen within the Church is a greater effort to minister to people who are homosexually inclined and transgendered on the parish level without changing her teachings,”
Obviously the OP is talking about greater pastoral care of both…Have you not read the thread?
Glad
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Dale_M
Guest
Perhaps you didn’t read the first post. I would advise you to do so.
TShawn is asking for support in living a celibate life in accordance to Church teaching.
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D_M
Guest
Hi TShawn,
You’re very welcome…
In answer to your question/comment, I think the answer is partly yes that it serves a purpose higher than simply procreation even though it is not supposed to be divorced from procreation… but what Gregory is saying I think is that it is not supposed to pursued for the purpose of sexual pleasure.
Pope John Paul II talked a lot on this subject I think… I’m thinking of his ‘theology of the body’ in which he explored the issues of what it meant to be a man or a woman and what role the gift of sexuality had to plan in the relationship.
I can’t talk much further on what he said, as I haven’t read that much, but if you’re interested here’s a link to such a resource
theologyofthebody.net/
What I understand though is that the nuptial union is holy, and that the love between man and wife in the act of intercourse is itself meant to be an image of God’s love. In that way sexuality serves a purpose beyond procreation because it unites souls in love for each other… any act which is a true reflection of God’s love within the sexual union therefore is legitimate, but any action which is done in order to serve the desires of selfish lust is not permitted.
I don’t think it is then understood that it is sinful to enjoy the act, but rather it is sinful to seek selfish enjoyment of the act (you don’t use the other person in order to give yourself pleasure, but rather you love them).
I think you could only be charged with having been corrupting the way God made you if you deliberately intended to do so. Even if you were wrong and that God meant you to be a woman, if you didn’t know this and went through transition with good faith then while you did something that was not what He intended, there is no way that you could be blamed with sin for having done that… since the morality of any action rests in the intention of the heart and not with the outward act which was produced by that intention.
In any event, I’m not convinced that you are corrupting God’s plan as I don’t see why it is He could not have had a plan for transgendered persons. He has plans for people He made who were crippled, blind from birth, possessing congenital heart defects, down syndrome, etc… and He did make those people with those problems, and they are not wrong to try to change the way God made them either… think of the story in the gospel of the man who was born blind from birth, Jesus healed him of his blindness, and his blindness that God had created him with then served a higher purpose by glorifying God.
I think that this issue is like the church’s anti-communism in times past. We are called to reject communist governments because they atheistically persecuted the church, but that didn’t mean that state ownership of capital therefore became an evil thing even though it was associated with communism. Similarly we are called to reject the sexualised gay culture and the erroneous social theories with it, but that didn’t necessarily mean that a transgendered person who lived celibately in obedience to christian teaching therefore is rejected as well because it was associated with the sexualised gay culture and its erroneous social theories.
(anyone can say this herself if she chooses)
Lord, give us all the wisdom we need to deal with this difficult problem correctly and with love towards those in the LGBT catholic community. We pray that you help us discern better what purpose TShawn and others like him have in your creation, and that you may be glorified by it. We ask this, if it is your will, in Jesus’ name, Amen.
God Bless,
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TShawn
Guest
Thank you DM.
If more Catholics and other Christians addressed people like myself the way you do, I sincerely believe there would be more of us in the pews. That having been said, I must respectfully disagree that homosexual people when they engage in sex do so for the sole purpose of their own pleasure or rather, using their partner for their own selfish pleasure. Not to say that some don’t anymore than heterosexual people do, but the ones I know who are in committed relationships, engage in sex for the same reasons married heterosexual people do but for obvious reasons, can not procreate. I believe if it were possible for some to do so, they would as well though. It seems to me, that it is always assumed that “gay love” equals "selfish love’ and I don’t think that is a fair assumption just because their bodies are the same. - Very respectfully, - Tshawn
If more Catholics and other Christians addressed people like myself the way you do, I sincerely believe there would be more of us in the pews. That having been said, I must respectfully disagree that homosexual people when they engage in sex do so for the sole purpose of their own pleasure or rather, using their partner for their own selfish pleasure. Not to say that some don’t anymore than heterosexual people do, but the ones I know who are in committed relationships, engage in sex for the same reasons married heterosexual people do but for obvious reasons, can not procreate. I believe if it were possible for some to do so, they would as well though. It seems to me, that it is always assumed that “gay love” equals "selfish love’ and I don’t think that is a fair assumption just because their bodies are the same. - Very respectfully, - Tshawn
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bookgirl32
Guest
This has always been confusing to me. This is my understanding: a homosexual person considers him/herself what they were born (male/female) and are attracted to the same sex. A transgendered (but does that mean they’ve had treatment or operations, or is that a transexual?) feels that they were “born in the wrong body”? (And I believe the Church does not condemn feeling that way or feelings of attraction in and of themselves, but what action is taken, correct?)
I would point out that, even if my understanding is a little off here, both situations would be called to celibacy, just as a single heterosexual who has never been called to marry, or just as an individual who suffers from a form of impotency. That’s what makes so much sense about the Church’s teachings on sexual morality, there is one constant that is applicable to every single human being: respect sex, basically. What’s different is how different people and their situations are called to do so.
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bookgirl32
Guest
But sex by itself doesn’t equal love!! I don’t think that most people here mean that it’s “seflish” in that the people involved are simply looking for their own physical gratification. But when you look at it in context of the Church’s teachings, sex is tied to and cannot be separated from it’s life-giving aspect, just as it shouldn’t be seperated from it’s unitive aspect. So to use it for JUST one or the other is manipulating it in some way, shape or form to fit one’s personal use for it, even if that use is using it as an action to show someone else love. Does that make sense? It doesn’t just apply to homosexual or transgendered people. They’re bodies being the same is what separates sex from it’s pro-creative aspect. But a heterosexual married couple using artificial birth control is doing the exact same thing, just in a different way.
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TShawn
Guest
I debate the issue of whether I am called to Celibacy as a Transexual. Just because someone tells me I am, does not make it so. I am still trying however, to discern this. Basically for me, it’s I don’t want nor wish to be celibate. I would like to find a life-partner and not of course just for sex but for the rest of the inimacy that heterosexual, gender conforming people share. But the Church tells me that if I do so, I am guilty of grave sin. I don’t agree with this either. But I do have a “what if they ARE right” issue to settle and until I do, I will remain celibate since I am not a proponent of casual sex and am rather conservative in my views on sexuality as well. -TShawn
Oh, you are not as confused on the issues of homosexual people and transexuals as you think. Transexuals do feel a sense of displacement (a strong one) in the bodies they inhabit. Transgendered people may not feel this as strongly but resist efforts at “gender conformity”.
Basically, I strongly believe by the evidence of the sum total people I have known in my life that there will always be a majority of people who do conform to the gender they were assigned at birth and humankind is in no such danger of that changing. -TShawn
Oh, you are not as confused on the issues of homosexual people and transexuals as you think. Transexuals do feel a sense of displacement (a strong one) in the bodies they inhabit. Transgendered people may not feel this as strongly but resist efforts at “gender conformity”.
Basically, I strongly believe by the evidence of the sum total people I have known in my life that there will always be a majority of people who do conform to the gender they were assigned at birth and humankind is in no such danger of that changing. -TShawn
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bookgirl32
Guest
Just glad you’re looking at the Church for what it’s really saying and not putting words in Her mouth. So many people automatically assume that since the Church teaches what it does about sex, and about homosexuality or transgender/transexuality, that this equals “gay people are bad”, which it doesn’t. The Church loves everyone, and if you can at least accept the logic, even if you don’t agree with it, you can see that it is saying what it’s saying about certain sinful activity out of love, not hate.
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TShawn
Guest
Bookgirl,
It would be very dishonest for me to put words in the Church’s mouth. Plus, I have a deep love for the CAtholic Church. She has withstood the test of time up to this day and that says a lot to me! Peace to you! - TShawn
It would be very dishonest for me to put words in the Church’s mouth. Plus, I have a deep love for the CAtholic Church. She has withstood the test of time up to this day and that says a lot to me! Peace to you! - TShawn
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TShawn
Guest
Also, bookgirl, you do an admirable job of explaining the purpose of sex in the eyes of the Church. I understand what you are saying with my head, but in my heart, I struggle to see it that way. Not that I can totally get my head around this either. I feel that if I were called to Celibacy, then I would DESIRE celibacy just as a person who desires the priesthood or a religious life does. They freely offer their sexuality up to God’s service. I don’t get the option of FREELY offering mine up, I am told that I MUST, and this is what I struggle with. I also don’t believe or see why (and that is why I don’t believe) separating the unitive from the procreative aspect of sex is so wrong either. To have such a strong drive and no outlet for it is frustrating to say the least. And that is just the “sex” part of things. To not be able to come home after a hard days work and say “Hey honey, guess what happened to me today?” or What can I do to make your day better", share milestones with, I could go on and on but I think you get my point. I feel condemned to a solitary life since I am even deemed unfit for religious life. I fear becoming one of those people who die alone and are not found for a week or even longer after their deaths because they had no one who really cared to check on them. I have seen this (because of my line of work) and it’s ugly. Plus, who would claim my body after death? That just stinks, no pun intended. I don’t wish to become a parasite, joining myself to other people’s lives and living precariously through them. I am a quiet, shy, person by nature and prefer to surround myself with a few good friends rather than a large community. I’m an introvert who would love to just have a special person with whom to share my life and help each other live a fulfilling, Christ centered life. I just don’t want to do it alone. But on the other hand, there’s the whole rebellious issue as well. I don’t want to be judged by my God for that either. I don’t know what my purpose in life is other than the first basic reason in the Baltimore Catechism, to love and serve God…? - TShawn
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bookgirl32
Guest
I hope you continue to look for the right thing to do, in spite of how you may feel about it. I obviously am not in your situation, and can’t (and won’t) judge your feelings. But just know that marriage is a calling that a lot of people who are married don’t “want”. I’m a heterosexual female who is married. I can honestly say that many, many, many times, even daily, I do not WANT to be called to marriage b/c I do not want to be called to being pregnant if God wills it. I KNOW in my mind all that pregnancy means and is, and that it is a part of the calling of marriage. My feelings about it are quite the opposite. I suffer from what is called perinatal depression and OCD, which in the first 20 weeks or so of pregnancy is NOT mild, or even moderate and causes major panic attacks. Along with this I have severe nausea, raging rashes, and insomnia (real, literally not sleeping for weeks at a time insomnia, not trouble sleeping). I’m prone to blood clots and have already had one pulmonary embollism (blood clot to lung) when my son was two weeks old which will result in constant monitering, blood thinners and a “high risk” classification of my next pregnancy. I have at times (not rightfully) almost wished I was not Catholic just so artificial birth control were an option. Even with all these complications I have major problems reconciling the use of NFP indefinitely (it has to be used while on certain meds and blood thinners). I do not WANT any of this. I want sex to mean intimacy with my husband, and waayyyyy too often sex means feeling completely out of control, terrified and fearful of the outcome. Pregnancy feels like torture. But since I was called to marry, I was called to pregnancy if God saw fit. Sex is very hard to enjoy, and I’m married and can rightfully engage in it. There are times when being single and called to celibacy to me seem like sublime freedom, but in my mind I know what I was called to and have to find the courage to trust God, and He does reward me for it, and I wouldn’t change anything. That doesn’t mean I originally wanted it, or that it made me “happy” in the emotional sense of the word.
All I’m saying is that, while your situation has been very painful for you, everyone’s calling also involves their cross. EVERYONE. No one’s true vocation is “wanted” in the way you’re thinking. It’s wanted because it’s what God wants. I’m not saying that most people do not feel fulfilled by their calling, for if it’s their true vocation and they are honestly open to it, it’s the only way to really be fulfilled. It just doesn’t mean that you’re going to be free from suffering, strife, fear, or anything like it. And it definitely doesn’t mean you’re going to be happy all the time. Lots of joy, lots of love, but those aren’t the same things as this worldly view of “happiness”.
Hope that made sense.
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TShawn
Guest
Bookgirl,
I appreciate you sharing the cross you bear. Indeed it is a very heavy one! I pray that God will grant you the graces you need and the strength to carry His will out. I just don’t understand the Church’s issue with birth control either. I don’t believe that everyone should be a parent but should be able to be married as well. Like I said earlier somewhere in this forum, I have serious issues with the Church’s teaching in all aspects of sexuality except for it being reserved for a committed, faithful relationship. Then people would not be going through so much suffering! The Church teaches there is redemptive value in suffering, but to add to that suffering with heavy, narrow teachings and definitions of humankind’s sexuality seems (no disrespect intended), ridiculous to me. Animals have sex to procreate. I thought we were a little higher than the animals and could choose when or if to procreate unlike animals. I believe strongly that children are a gift from God, but they should not be thrust on the unwilling couple in order to fulfill some “law”. I’m sorry if my reply frustrates you and I sure hope I don’t offend you because your suffering is indeed very great. I’ll think of this matter more though and try to be more reflective on it. Thanks and God bless! - TShawn
I appreciate you sharing the cross you bear. Indeed it is a very heavy one! I pray that God will grant you the graces you need and the strength to carry His will out. I just don’t understand the Church’s issue with birth control either. I don’t believe that everyone should be a parent but should be able to be married as well. Like I said earlier somewhere in this forum, I have serious issues with the Church’s teaching in all aspects of sexuality except for it being reserved for a committed, faithful relationship. Then people would not be going through so much suffering! The Church teaches there is redemptive value in suffering, but to add to that suffering with heavy, narrow teachings and definitions of humankind’s sexuality seems (no disrespect intended), ridiculous to me. Animals have sex to procreate. I thought we were a little higher than the animals and could choose when or if to procreate unlike animals. I believe strongly that children are a gift from God, but they should not be thrust on the unwilling couple in order to fulfill some “law”. I’m sorry if my reply frustrates you and I sure hope I don’t offend you because your suffering is indeed very great. I’ll think of this matter more though and try to be more reflective on it. Thanks and God bless! - TShawn
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bookgirl32
Guest
You’re not offending me, you’re just thinking and there’s nothing wrong with that! Just please be open. I think that really, to go to the root of being Catholic (and any other form of Christianity) is that it’s not about us, it’s about God. We were made to please Him, not the other way around. Please don’t take that as meaning that God doesn’t care about how we feel, He does. He’s made it so in trying our hardest to please Him, we come to the greatest fulfilliment.
I hope, too, that I didn’t put forth the idea that pregnancy is an unwanted cross, it’s not. It FEELS like it is at times, but what it has made me, and how close it has brought me to God, was worth every second of it. I would never take it back. It doesn’t change my fear, but I love God all the more for what He has chosen for me to go through, b/c of how He was able to love me through it, because of how I was able to really see and experience His love.
In other words, if things were just smooth sailing, we could never possibly know how much He loves us. The whole “cross” thing, He’s allowing us to experience some of His suffering, which was far greater than any of us have ever experienced. He made us to please Him, yet He willingly died to make it possible that we be with Him. The love that I feel from Him, despite how I feel about my hardships, is something I would willingly (NOT happily) go through 1000 pregnancies for! (Not to mention my son
).
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TShawn
Guest
I’m not sure I understand at all how suffering shows me how much God loves me. (not counting Jesus’ suffering on the cross, I mean my suffering or yours.) Can you explain how your suffering or mine shows us how much God loves us? I don’t get that at all. Also, I will not be posting or able to read any more responses for a little while until I regain internet access. I have been borrowing the computer of a friend. I hope to be back within a month or sooner though even if I have to go to the library. I’ll check back tomorrow morning and after that I’ll be unable to. I just don’t want anyone to think I’m ignoring them. - God bless! - TShawn
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bookgirl32
Guest
Oh, you want me to do that at midnight?
. First of all, there is a huge freedom when you really, really put yourself aside. When you give up all notions of being able to be perfectly happy on Earth or in this life, that helps too. It’s all about what happens AFTER this life, really. That’s where we will be perfectly happy, and when you try to accept this, this life becomes more about trying to get there, and less about trying to be happy.I don’t know how to explain the love I feel when God is there for me when I really need Him. This sounds over-simplified, but maybe you could pray about it, pray for Him to show you what I mean. Knowing that He knows everything about you, every thought you’ve ever had, and still loves you more than you can even imagine. Most of our “unhappiness” is because of our humanness after all. The miracle is that God can take something we as humans have done (and our enemy, Satan, has done), whether by us doing it to ourselves, or by Original Sin (neither of which were God’s fault) and use it to do things that they were never meant to do, point to Him and His Church and His love for us.
I guess in allowing us to suffer He is allowing us to be even more like Him, and through that to gain a greater understanding of His love. He didnt’ have to die, obviuosly, and if you read the account of the agony in the garden, you know He didn’t want to. So through our suffering, He’s showing us a glimpse of what He went through for us, making us even more capable of understanding what He did and appreciating it. And we can build upon it, it’s through that suffering that we grow and learn.
I’m babbling, I hope I’m making some sense. And you can always find things to thank Him for, aren’t you glad you’re alive, that you’ve been given this chance to be fulfilled? So many people take that simple thing for granted.
Read about Mary, who accepted a calling that most likely terrified her, Luke 1:26-38. Read Philippians 4:8-13, and know that Paul means there IS truth, there IS honor, there IS purity, there IS excellence, and how God strengthens us to do these things. Read what Paul says in Romans 5:3 about suffering. And read (definitely read) what Jesus says in Luke 12:22-32. Then try to pick up the autobiography of Saint Teresa the Little Flower (Lisieux) and read about her suffering in the “Story of a Soul”. Read Augustine’s confessions, read Mother Teresa’s writings about the poorest of the poor, and how even though they must be the most unhappy on earth, their lives are worth as much as the happiest on earth exactly how they are, and just as worthy to live. You don’t have to agree with any of this, but just do some reading from the people who have best exemplified what I’m trying to talk about. At the very least, it’s all extremely interesting!!
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apromisemade
Guest
Thank you for your testimony. Your courage and self insight are truly inspiring.
Yes, people do have a tendency to recoile from and demean what they do not understand. I have found that, very often, once you prod people a little bit, you will learn that their opposition to the “gay agenda” really has far less to do with their religious conviction than meets the eye. I think you doing just what you are doing now, sharing your story with such grace and composure, will go a long way in helping people who struggle with and lack understanding of LBGT people.
Yes, people do have a tendency to recoile from and demean what they do not understand. I have found that, very often, once you prod people a little bit, you will learn that their opposition to the “gay agenda” really has far less to do with their religious conviction than meets the eye. I think you doing just what you are doing now, sharing your story with such grace and composure, will go a long way in helping people who struggle with and lack understanding of LBGT people.
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D_M
Guest
Hi Tshawn,
That’s very kind of you to say so.
Although I admit I’ve had such thoughts in past times, I’m not sure if I claimed here that homosexuals always engage in sex for their own selfish pleasure, but I rather was elaborating on what I think Gregory the Great meant in those words of his about couples seeking pleasure in sex, which you had asked me about, which in truth are directed against anyone.
Homosexual persons could attempt to seek the other’s good in such a relationship, and in that sense they could not be charged with being selfishly seeking for appeasement, because sin does not exist in the outward actions but in the intention of the heart that determined the outward actions.
Homosexual relations are still rejected, not because all homosexuals are selfishly seeking after their own sexual appeasement, but rather because it is not part of God’s plan that they should have such relations. That is to say, even if they sought the good of the other, and therefore did not commit the sin of selfishness in their hearts, they would still nonetheless be corrupting the purpose for which God intended them.
It is not God’s plan that people should pursue sexual relations in that way, and for that reason they are called to celibacy.
And again, they can only be charged with sin in doing this corruption if they knew what they were doing or did it in bad faith (this is similar to the question I treated before on whether a transgendered person sins if they transition).
To quote St Paul:
Romans 14:22-23 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God; happy is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves. But he who has doubts is condemned, if he eats, because he does not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
Romans 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any one who thinks it unclean.
(anyone can say this herself if she chooses)
Lord, help us understand better your role for human sexuality and especially help those of us, like Tshawn, who have difficulties accepting these aspects of what your church teaches but who still wish to remain true to it. We ask this, if it is your will, in Jesus’ name, Amen.
God Bless,
- Status