Pastoral Epistles

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Vince222,

Many thanks for your replies.

It makes a difference to me whether Paul wrote the PEs or not. If he did not someone is telling lies.

I am not concerned (at present) about the author of the Pentateuch/Torah.

The Vulgate of St Jerome is a translation. It seems illogical to accept one translation as inspired, while not another.

You say the Bible is inspired. Is the Vulgate of St Jerome the only inspired version we have?

Which Vulgate is inspired? Is it Biblia Sacra Vulgata : Iuxta Vulgatem Versionem, 3rd edition. Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 1969, or The Clementine Vulgate, corrected and standardized following the Council of Trent and promulgated in 1592 by Pope Clement VIII?
 
Vince222,

Many thanks for your replies.

It makes a difference to me whether Paul wrote the PEs or not. If he did not someone is telling lies.
You hit the nail on the head. If most of those books of the Bible were not written by those who say they are written by then it would be an obvious intentional deception. And also if those books like Daniel that they say were written after those prophecies had been fulfilled then it would have been another intentional deception. If that was true then I would be a very big skeptic of the reliablity of the Bible and the Christian Faith. I don’t care if those who make those claims happen to be considered “scholars”, there are plenty of highly educated people who are very wrong in their positions and their philosophies. Despite what those scholars may think about themselves, they don’t have a monopoly on IQ, and usually they are in the minority opinion-wise, especially for 2000 years of Catholic thought.
 
Some time ago I was at a lecture given by Bart Ehrman, who claimed all the books of the new testament were forgeries, except seven Letters of Paul and the Apocalypse/Revelation.

I considered he was only expressing views to get a negative reaction from the audience.

What do you think, who (other than the Holy Spirit) wrote the NT?
 
Some time ago I was at a lecture given by Bart Ehrman, who claimed all the books of the new testament were forgeries, except seven Letters of Paul and the Apocalypse/Revelation.

I considered he was only expressing views to get a negative reaction from the audience.

What do you think, who (other than the Holy Spirit) wrote the NT?
I believe in the traditional understanding that they were written by who they are known to be written by, Matthew Mark Luke and John wrote their Gospels. Luke wrote Acts, Paul wrote Romans-Philemon, Hebrews was probably written by Paul but it can be debated. James wrote James, Peter wrote 1-2 Peter, John wrote 1-3 John, Jude wrote Jude, and John wrote Revelation.
 
Pseudonymity is not the equivalent of untruthfulness. It wasn’t that the writer was trying to pretend to be someone else. or to deceive the reader. It was common to ascribe a text to a teacher, leader, or even a bygone figure - this was a form of humility, rather than claiming authority for oneself. It was also common for a teacher’s disciples to commit to writing the lessons they had heard him teach after he died, and those written forms would be considered to be “by” that teacher, since they were his thoughts.

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I think some Pseudonymity wasnt done in humility but rather was used as a means to give credibility to a particular school of thought ie the gnostics attributing the names of apostles to some of their writings. I think this would qualify as purposeful deception. a rose by any other name smells as sweet.
 
Copland 3

Thanks fpr all your replies to me.

I accept also that Paul wrote the PEs, but most Catholic commentaries (except LT Johnson) claim otherwise, hence I seen to read Protestant commentaries mostly.
 
Vince222,

Many thanks for your replies.

It makes a difference to me whether Paul wrote the PEs or not. If he did not someone is telling lies.

I am not concerned (at present) about the author of the Pentateuch/Torah.

The Vulgate of St Jerome is a translation. It seems illogical to accept one translation as inspired, while not another.

You say the Bible is inspired. Is the Vulgate of St Jerome the only inspired version we have?

Which Vulgate is inspired? Is it Biblia Sacra Vulgata : Iuxta Vulgatem Versionem, 3rd edition. Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 1969, or The Clementine Vulgate, corrected and standardized following the Council of Trent and promulgated in 1592 by Pope Clement VIII?
You may think someone is telling lies, but the Catholic Church doesn’t.

No the Vulgate is not the only inspired translation.

Again…I’d highly recommend the article on Inspiration in the Jerome Biblical Commentary.
 
Some time ago I was at a lecture given by Bart Ehrman, who claimed all the books of the new testament were forgeries, except seven Letters of Paul and the Apocalypse/Revelation.

I considered he was only expressing views to get a negative reaction from the audience.

What do you think, who (other than the Holy Spirit) wrote the NT?
Being somewhat simple-minded, myself, I tend to assume that the name given in the first paragraph or in the title of the work is the name of the person who wrote it, or who was responsible for its content.

Like you, I am baffled by the idea that someone other that St. Paul would write to Timothy and speak about events they shared together, without actually being the man himself, or his secretary.

At the same time, I’m sure that the modern theologians and scholars have some reason for believing that at least some of what was written in St. Paul’s name may have been penned after his death. What I would consider is, what indications are there in the writing itself that St. Paul either did or did not write the work?

If someone other than St. Paul was writing to St. Timothy, did St. Timothy know who the person was, and was that the person with whom he shared these various experiences that are being described in the book?

I am aware that in art, during the Renaissance period, students and other workers followed the plan given to them by the artist, such that, say for example, Leonardo Da Vinci might never have touched “The Last Supper” but it is attributed to him, because he is the one who hired the workers and took on the students who actually did the work, and gave them the plan to follow. The lonely artist in his studio doing everything himself is a much more modern phenomenon, beginning with the Impressionists.

So, it’s possible (I don’t consider it likely, considering that a great deal of his writing was done in prison, and it strikes me that one does not bring one’s staff to prison, generally) that St. Paul had a staff of writers and students who were sending out letters to the churches, and continued to do so even after his death.

The strikes against this include the above-mentioned point that, most of the writing was done from prison, and also the fact that, there isn’t actually that much of it. You can read through the letters of St. Paul in just a few hours; there would have been very little for a large staff of writers to do - one week, and the whole thing would have been completed. So, it doesn’t seem very likely, but it’s one idea.

Perhaps there were also admirers of St. Paul who kind of took on his “persona” after his death, and wrote according to how they thought he would write (like Elvis impersonators, who pride themselves on singing in exactly the same style as Elvis Presley) - if Timothy was aware that the impersonator was adding details from his personal experiences to add an air of authenticity to the work, he would have accepted it as a compliment to his mentor. If it is in fact true that someone else wrote the letters of St. Paul to Timothy, this is the scenario that makes the most sense to me.

I still don’t consider it likely, however.
 
Vince1022

You mention that the Vulgate is not the only inspired translation. But which Vulgate and what other translations are inspired?

However I appreciate very much your reply. It is CA at its best as your reply is scholarly, friendly and faithful to the Church.

Is the article you refer to Inspiration by Raymond Collins in the NJBC (1990)?

Currently I am trying to study Collins’ book I & II Timothy and Titus. He supports the non-Pauline authorship of the PEs, while I prefer Pauline authorship, as supported by Protestant, conservative scholars and Luke Timothy Johnson, who does not find favor with some Catholics.

I hope to answer more fully when I have reread Collins’ article and more of his book.
 
JMCrae,

Again I find myself in agreement with much of what you wrote.

There is much evidence that Paul did not write the PEs, as the grammar, words and concepts differ from other epistle of Paul.

I agree also he had assistants, as not all the letters come from Paul himself, Timothy, Tertius etc. contributed to the letters.

But on the balance of probabilities I prefer Pauline authorship.
 
You may think someone is telling lies, but the Catholic Church doesn’t.

No the Vulgate is not the only inspired translation.

Again…I’d highly recommend the article on Inspiration in the Jerome Biblical Commentary.
I’d say the Vulgate is NOT an inspired translation.

Only Matthew’s Greek translation of his Aramaic-written Gospel is inspired.

There are ACCURATE translations but not inspired, as I understand it.
 
I have been advised to read the (N)JBC’s article on inspiration.

I have done this today and am still not too clear. However as I intended to write here about it (even though it is a bit off-topic) I was encouraged to read carefully and reflect.

The starting point, as I learned in the catechism in school over 50 years ago, is that the Bible is written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Ghost), so God is truly the author”. Accepting this the problem is to understand what it means.

As I am studying the Pastoral Epistles I note that a key quote is
All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness (NRSV, 2 Tim 3:16).
What does scripture (GRAFH, γραφή) mean? It has been defined (in this context) as inspired writings. Thus the statement that inspired writings are inspired is a tautology.

It is not good enough to say that as the KJV was good enough for Jesus Christ it should be good enough for us.

One of the suggestions in this article is that an Ecclesial approach is useful, in so far as what the Church says is inspired is inspired.

The article concludes with:
Since the understanding of Scripture is very much in “process”, an understanding of inspiration must necessarily be “in process” as well.

So to ask what versions of the Bible that we have, since autographs do not exist, are inspired is not a useful question.

PS: NotWorthy wrote
Only Matthew’s Greek translation of his Aramaic-written Gospel is inspired
Does this exist?
 
PS: NotWorthy wrote

Does this exist?
Regarding the original Aramaic text of Matthew? No, it does not. But neither does the original Greek text - only copies.

But St. Jerome says that he used an existing copy of the Aramaic text when he translated (not inspirationally, mind you ;)) the Scriptures into the Latin Vulgate. St. Jerome’s text is good enough for me. I mean, why would he make this up?
 
NotWorthy and others here,

We are agreed that only copies and translations of the NT are known to us. The originals are lost.

But we have looked in detail into what inspiration means and this has been useful, even though it has been discussed here under various headings.

I am grateful to all of you for your help in my understanding of the Bible as a Catholic.

I hope to continue, with your help, the study of the PEs.
 
NotWorthy and others here,

We are agreed that only copies and translations of the NT are known to us. The originals are lost.

But we have looked in detail into what inspiration means and this has been useful, even though it has been discussed here under various headings.

I am grateful to all of you for your help in my understanding of the Bible as a Catholic.

I hope to continue, with your help, the study of the PEs.
Did I miss something?

For I don’t understand how St. Jerome’s translation into the Latin Vulgate can be considered “Inspired”. I am unaware of anyone in the Church making this claim. I do know several Protestants that think the King James was inspired, but that’s simply ridiculous.

Note, I have heard of claims that the Septuagint translation of the Pentateuch were inspired, for all the translators came up with the exact same translations. But that’s simply Jewish tradition, from what I understand.
 
I’d say the Vulgate is NOT an inspired translation.

Only Matthew’s Greek translation of his Aramaic-written Gospel is inspired.

There are ACCURATE translations but not inspired, as I understand it.
The idea that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Aramaic is pure speculation, and not required to be believed by the Catholic Church.

I think you beg the question, then, of what your understanding of “inspiration” is. If Jerome’s Vulgate does not meet that definition, why? What is your definition or understanding of inspiration? And how does it compare to what the Catholic Church teaches?
 
I think you beg the question, then, of what your understanding of “inspiration” is.
Even the most liberal definition would include the originality of the material being produced. St. Jerome was a great man, but he was not producing original material - he was copying the inspired material into a second language.
If Jerome’s Vulgate does not meet that definition, why?
Because God was not giving St. Jerome any original material.
What is your definition or understanding of inspiration?
It is that God works in some mysterious way through an individual to give the world a new message - one that has not previously been presented, yet. Most loosely, a person who looks at a sunset and then makes an original painting using the colours he saw in the sunset is “inspired” by the sunset.

Obviously, the inspiration of the Scriptures is more complex than that - but it is still completely original, uncopied material.
 
NotWorthy,

Yo wrote:
Did I miss something?
For I don’t understand how St. Jerome’s translation into the Latin Vulgate can be considered “Inspired”. I am unaware of anyone in the Church making this claim.
Did I say the Vulgate was inspired? I think Vince1022 said this.

I would like to move on to a study the PEs themselves.
 
The idea that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Aramaic is pure speculation, and not required to be believed by the Catholic Church.
When a saint like Jerome claims to have a copy of the Aramaic, I think it would be presumptuous of me to claim he is lying, when I don’t have any evidence of falsehood.
I think you beg the question, then, of what your understanding of “inspiration” is. If Jerome’s Vulgate does not meet that definition, why? What is your definition or understanding of inspiration? And how does it compare to what the Catholic Church teaches?
“Inspired” mean God-breathed. It is what we hold all the Scriptures. That the Holy Spirit is the author of all Scriptures, even if it was written by the hand of men.

St. Jerome’s interpretation may be extremely accurate, but that doesn’t mean he was directly guided by the Holy Spirit in his translation. It just means he was very fluent in Greek (and Aramaic) and Latin, as well as adept at discovering the authors’ intent in writing each book of the bible.

I thought all of this was in line with Catholic teaching.
 
Even the most liberal definition would include the originality of the material being produced. St. Jerome was a great man, but he was not producing original material - he was copying the inspired material into a second language.

Because God was not giving St. Jerome any original material.

It is that God works in some mysterious way through an individual to give the world a new message - one that has not previously been presented, yet. Most loosely, a person who looks at a sunset and then makes an original painting using the colours he saw in the sunset is “inspired” by the sunset.

Obviously, the inspiration of the Scriptures is more complex than that - but it is still completely original, uncopied material.
If having a copy of the original biblical text is required to consider the biblical text inspired, then no Bibles currently printed are inspired. The “inspired material” St. Jerome copied was likely not the originals either, so where is the line drawn?
 
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