Pastoral Reasons for not kneeling in the GIRM

[mvinca]

From the GIRM:

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

My question is about the “addressed pastorally… with proper catechesis” part. Do the Bishops define what proper catechesis would be on this matter? Or are priests left like a fish floundering? It seems to me that nobody really knows the “reasons for this norm,” but maybe this is actually defined somewhere?

Please note, I’m looking for an answer strictly from the OF perspective, which is why I posted in this thread. I’m not looking for an OF/EF debate. I’m looking simply to understand the OF (of which I soley attend) more fully.

 

[Phemie]

From the GIRM:

My question is about the “addressed pastorally… with proper catechesis” part. Do the Bishops define what proper catechesis would be on this matter? Or are priests left like a fish floundering? It seems to me that nobody really knows the “reasons for this norm,” but maybe this is actually defined somewhere?

Please note, I’m looking for an answer strictly from the OF perspective, which is why I posted in this thread. I’m not looking for an OF/EF debate. I’m looking simply to understand the OF (of which I soley attend) more fully.

I’ve never understood how that line was allowed to stay in the GIRM considering that Rome has spoken and said that the faithful who choose to kneel for Communion are not to be imposed upon or in any way regarded as disobedient or even acting illicitly. Being ‘counselled’ about your kneeling implies that you are doing something wrong.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi,

I thoroughly agree that these 2 instructions do cause confusion and division.

Against a norm is not something morally wrong, unless there is disobedience involved, so if you are given permission to ignore a norm, it is not disobedience.

The norm will not be changed, so the communicants are encouraged to follow it, especially where there are no provisions for kneeling. The main reason (told to me by a seminarian) is that there is a danger of tripping which may cause injury, or dropping the communion—certainly more possible if attempting to kneel when receiving the cup. Also kneeling during the Communion procession is a real disruption and/or distraction. If there are provisions for kneeling, this is not a problem.

I am not comfortable with the attitude of the Pope in the US or other places where standing is the norm. If you encourage the congregation to ignore one norm, don’t be surprised when they ignore another.

Lux

 

[thedogmother]

I agree. When our 3 parishes merged, our priest, (a young one), very traditional, made sure all 3 parishes were kneeling at the proper times. One of the parishes (mine ) was real loosy goosey regarding kneeling, our parish was still standing during the consecreation, (please excuse spelling…New Yrs lack of sleep) I think I was the only one kneeling. Father Nadeau is an awesome priest! He is now further up Maine (USA) bringing more parishes together, and these parishes will be catechetised properly. I think I better go back to bed.

Happy New Year all!

Love,
Claire
Among the Frozen Chozen in ME USA

 

[tee_eff_em]

I’ve never understood how that line was allowed to stay in the GIRM considering that Rome has spoken and said that the faithful who choose to kneel for Communion are not to be imposed upon or in any way regarded as disobedient or even acting illicitly. Being ‘counselled’ about your kneeling implies that you are doing something wrong.

Presumably because the line in the GIRM predates the instruction you allude to.

I imagine it is possible to counsel a la: *“You are acting contrary to the norm established by the episcopal conference…” *without the implication of wrongdoing.

:twocents:
tee

 

[John_Lilburne]

A few reasons that occur to me for the norm, that could be useful as explanations.

1. Safety for others in the procession. There is more chance someone tripping if someone kneels, particularly if it happens unexpectedly.
2. Safety for the person kneeling. There is more effort required for someone to get onto their kneels and back to their feet.
3. Back ache for the Communion minister. If someone is kneeling the Communion minister will be required to bend over further to give them Communion.
4. Dignity of the laity. By standing the lay people are receiving Communion in a manner more similar to the way the priest does at Mass.
5. Single posture adding to the beauty of the celebration. From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM):
   “42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
   A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”
6. Less time to receive Communion standing. It would take longer for people to kneel to receive the Body and Blood of Christ. Thus more Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion would be required for the distribution of Communion in a reasonable time.
7. More space required for kneeling. If everyone were kneeling, perhaps the first row of seats would need to be removed. So the church would only be able to seat fewer people.
8. It is the decision of the Conference of Bishops. The GIRM is explicit about this being their decision:
   “390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the
   recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include
   • The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);
   …
   • The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);”
9. Expense of kneelers. Having a kneeler, the way Benedict XVI does, takes time to set up. At www.kneeler.com such a Prie Dieu costs $US 210 plus $US 30 shipping. One in front of each Communion minister adds up.
10. Avoiding individualism. From the GIRM:
    "95. … Thus, they are to shun any appearance of individualism or division, keeping before their eyes that they have only one Father in heaven and accordingly are all brothers and sisters to each other.
11. Indeed, they form one body, whether by hearing the word of God, or by joining in the prayers and the singing, or above all by the common offering of Sacrifice and by a common partaking at the Lord’s table. This unity is beautifully apparent from the gestures and postures observed in common by the faithful."

 

[palmas85]

A few reasons that occur to me for the norm, that could be useful as explanations.

1. Safety for others in the procession. There is more chance someone tripping if someone kneels, particularly if it happens unexpectedly.
2. Safety for the person kneeling. There is more effort required for someone to get onto their kneels and back to their feet.
3. Back ache for the Communion minister. If someone is kneeling the Communion minister will be required to bend over further to give them Communion.
4. Dignity of the laity. By standing the lay people are receiving Communion in a manner more similar to the way the priest does at Mass.
5. Single posture adding to the beauty of the celebration. From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM):
   “42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
   A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”
6. Less time to receive Communion standing. It would take longer for people to kneel to receive the Body and Blood of Christ. Thus more Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion would be required for the distribution of Communion in a reasonable time.
7. More space required for kneeling. If everyone were kneeling, perhaps the first row of seats would need to be removed. So the church would only be able to seat fewer people.
8. It is the decision of the Conference of Bishops. The GIRM is explicit about this being their decision:
   “390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the
   recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include
   • The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);
   …
   • The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);”
9. Expense of kneelers. Having a kneeler, the way Benedict XVI does, takes time to set up. At www.kneeler.com such a Prie Dieu costs $US 210 plus $US 30 shipping. One in front of each Communion minister adds up.
10. Avoiding individualism. From the GIRM:
    "95. … Thus, they are to shun any appearance of individualism or division, keeping before their eyes that they have only one Father in heaven and accordingly are all brothers and sisters to each other.
11. Indeed, they form one body, whether by hearing the word of God, or by joining in the prayers and the singing, or above all by the common offering of Sacrifice and by a common partaking at the Lord’s table. This unity is beautifully apparent from the gestures and postures observed in common by the faithful."

Good try though. Especially the part about the dignity of the laity. Of course what that really means is the erasing of the distinctions between the ordained priesthood and the laity so that everyone is on the same page so to speak, Exactly what the reformers such as Luther, Wycliff, Zwingli etc championed,

 

[benedictgal]

As in all things, there is a flip side to this question. I reference the letters written that affirm the right of the faithful to receive Holy Communion on the tongue while kneeling. These letters from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments were written in response to a plethora of complaints concerning priests denying the faithful the reception of Holy Communion because they chose to kneel.

As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “…while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion”.

In other words, there was a huge string attached to granting the recognitio to the USCCB to have standing as the norm for receiving Holy Communion. As this letter, dated February 26, 2003, noted, standing was permitted so long as those communicants who chose to kneel were not to be denied.

As for bending on the part of the priest distributing Holy Communion, I would say that this is rather a stretch. Pope Benedict doesn’t have a problem with bending and neither does Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith, the Secretary to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, who has now opted to use the Benedictine method of distributing Holy Communion during the Masses that he celebrates.

Thus, one can have a respectful answer to the “catechesis” section in the GIRM, since it does not go against the principles set forth by the Church.

 

[mvinca]

It seems to me that nobody really knows the “reasons for this norm,” but maybe this is actually defined somewhere?

Getting back to my original question, I think everyone agrees that this is not defined anywhere. The most we know is that the USCCB wanted the norm to be standing (with some resistance from Rome) but there really isn’t a reason given as to why they chose standing. (I realize people have tried to produce reasons, but we don’t seem to have anything more than conjecture. And it seems that this forces seminaries and priests to do the same thing… just give best guesses.)

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi,
One reason is the Communion procession, as a steady procession as community, rather than the ackward up & down, whether at a rail or kneeling individually.

The Communion Procession–When we come forward to receive Holy Communion at the Eucharist, we are notlining up as isolated individuals, couples, families or groups to be nourished andsustained for our Christian lives. We come forward together as the Body of Christ toreceive the Body of Christ. We receive the Body of Christ so that we may be moretruly together the Body of Christ in the world. As St Augustine of Hippo reminded us,at the Eucharist we receive what we are, and we become what we receive: ‘You reply“Amen” to that which you are, and by your reply you consent. For you hear “theBody of Christ” and you reply “Amen”. Be a member of the Body of Christ so that your “Amen” may be true.’One Bread One Body 94

Lux

 

[Monica37]

Just some observations from someone who used to attend the OF (ie receive standing) and now attend EF, kneeling. The argument that it takes up more space is wrong. We moved into a parish that was OF exclusively and just put a rail around the altar. 1.The expense was minimal because we have a rail not kneelers. It does not impede the OF masses, because there is a gate that they open and process up to.
2.It is not overly time consuming as we have a Deacon that assists. They each do half the line then go back. So I guess it goes as quick as the priest makes it which would be true of a procession as well.
3.Also, the people kneel,receive, a line forms behind them as as the receive, they move away and the peron behind them takes their place at the rail.
4.We have one elderly priest who does not seem to have difficulty with distributing to people kneeling.
5.Finally, it is about my acting as though I am in the presence of Christ, so my posture is related to that, not my priest or my “community”.
I don’t know what I will do when (Lord permitted) I see the face of my Lord, but I’m pretty sure I would hit my knees. Since I believe in the True Presence at Communion, I assume that posture.

That’s just my take on it. Flame away!

 

[benedictgal]

Just some observations from someone who used to attend the OF (ie receive standing) and now attend EF, kneeling. The argument that it takes up more space is wrong. We moved into a parish that was OF exclusively and just put a rail around the altar. 1.The expense was minimal because we have a rail not kneelers. It does not impede the OF masses, because there is a gate that they open and process up to.
2.It is not overly time consuming as we have a Deacon that assists. They each do half the line then go back. So I guess it goes as quick as the priest makes it which would be true of a procession as well.
3.Also, the people kneel,receive, a line forms behind them as as the receive, they move away and the peron behind them takes their place at the rail.
4.We have one elderly priest who does not seem to have difficulty with distributing to people kneeling.
5.Finally, it is about my acting as though I am in the presence of Christ, so my posture is related to that, not my priest or my “community”.
I don’t know what I will do when (Lord permitted) I see the face of my Lord, but I’m pretty sure I would hit my knees. Since I believe in the True Presence at Communion, I assume that posture.

That’s just my take on it. Flame away!

I observed the way the Holy Father handles the distribution of Holy Communion. As some have commented before, the communicants who go before him must receive kneeling and on the tongue. During yesterday’s Mass, he had an unusually high number of communicants. I believe that most of the Diplomatic Corps was going to receive from him.

It was not time consuming, not in the least. He may have taken a little longer because there were more communicants, but, the kneeling aspect did not take any longer than normal.

You second to the last comment in your post reminded me of the statement that the former Cardinal Ratzinger made, which was quoted in a letter issued by the CDWDS regarding kneeling. Jorge Cardinal Medina Estevez, the prefect at the time, wrote, in quoting the former Cardinal that:

The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments (Codex Iuris Canonici, canon 213). In view of the law that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them” (canon 843 ¶ 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

I realize that I reference the first part of this letter in my iniitial response on this thread, but, it certainly bears repeating.

The Holy Father is certainly cnosistent. What he believed and wrote about as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger is now coming to fruition as Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[palmas85]

Hi,
One reason is the Communion procession, as a steady procession as community, rather than the ackward up & down, whether at a rail or kneeling individually.

Lux

Please. Where do you guys come up with this nonsense?

Are you saying that for over 1500 years people did not receive as a community because they did kneel to receive?

I somehow doubt that we suddenly became a community in the late sixties or early seventies when this practice.of receiving while standing was first illicitly introduced.

 

[palmas85]

Getting back to my original question, I think everyone agrees that this is not defined anywhere. The most we know is that the USCCB wanted the norm to be standing (with some resistance from Rome) but there really isn’t a reason given as to why they chose standing. (I realize people have tried to produce reasons, but we don’t seem to have anything more than conjecture. And it seems that this forces seminaries and priests to do the same thing… just give best guesses.)

The reason they speculate is because there was no good reason for it anymore than there was a reason to receive in the hand. These changes were introduced only because they were different and those introducing them wanted to make a clean break from,hmm, how I should I say it, the Pre Vatican II Church?

 

[Walking_Home]

Hi,
One reason is the Communion procession, as a steady procession as community, rather than the ackward up & down, whether at a rail or kneeling individually.

Lux

---

Lux et Tenebrae–you are still promoting a false understanding of community.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Please. Where do you guys come up with this nonsense?

Are you saying that for over 1500 years people did not receive as a community because they did kneel to receive?

I somehow doubt that we suddenly became a community in the late sixties or early seventies when this practice.of receiving while standing was first illicitly introduced.

No need to be rude.

Peace

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

from the GIRM -

Movements and Posture

1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, **is a sign of the unity **of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

And from the USCCB bulletin

In addition to serving as a vehicle for the prayer of beings composed of body and spirit, the postures and gestures in which we engage at Mass have another very important function. The Church sees in these common postures and gestures both a symbol of the unity of those who have come together to worship and a means of fostering that unity. We are not free to change these postures to suit our own individual piety, for the Church makes it clear that our unity of posture and gesture is an expression of our participation in the one Body formed by the baptized with Christ, our head. When we stand, kneel, sit, bow and sign ourselves in common action, we given unambiguous witness that we are indeed the Body of Christ, united in heart, mind and spirit.

Email us at bcl@usccb.org
Secretariat for Divine Worship | 3211 4th Street, N.E., Washington DC 20017-1194 | (202) 541-3060 © USCCB. All rights reserved.

 

[palmas85]

No need to be rude.

Peace

Lux

Not being rude at all. Just asking a simple question, You seemed to indicate that by standing we were being somehow more of a community than by kneeling. I don’t believe that to be the case.

Are you saying then that the Holy Father is guilty of gross liturgical abuse by requiring that those receiving Holy Communion from him do so kneeling and on the tongue?

I anxiously await your response on this one,

 

[Walking_Home]

And from the USCCB bulletin

uote:
In addition to serving as a vehicle for the prayer of beings composed of body and spirit, the postures and gestures in which we engage at Mass have another very important function.**** The Church**** sees in these common postures and gestures both a symbol of the unity of those who have come together to worship and a means of fostering that unity. We are not free to change these postures to suit our own individual piety, for the Church makes it clear that our unity of posture and gesture is an expression of our participation in the one Body formed by the baptized with Christ, our head. When we stand, kneel, sit, bow and sign ourselves in common action, we given unambiguous witness that we are indeed the Body of Christ, united in heart, mind and spirit.

---

Since the above speaks of the Church – What has **the Church ** stated about kneeling for communion.