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Jack_Bauer
Guest
Can you show me where you derive your statistics?
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Myqyl
Guest
I said he was Once saved Alweays saved because I thought I recalled him saying it once many years ago on his TV show. I could very well be mistaken as, in a misguided youth, I used to watch Brother Pat under the influence of herbs which I have long since renounced. He was a hoot
God bless and sorry if I gave false wittness.
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ppeter
Guest
Eph 5:25 “Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her”
This is more than a moral “issue”. It is ecclesiological and christological. The Gospel is at stake.
If Christian marriage is just a convenient pleasure arrangement, then Christ has not loved the Church.
Or rather, Christ has divorced the Church (cf. Reformation), therefore divorcing my sick spouse is okay.
If my spouse commits adultery, then I can commit adultery in return, because Christ supposedly abandoned the unfaithful historical Church. Our mutual gift of self can be incomplete and contracepted, because Christ didn’t really give Himself totally and irrevocably to His Church and become one flesh with her, but held Himself back for the pure Protestant spiritual body of believers.
This is more than a moral “issue”. It is ecclesiological and christological. The Gospel is at stake.
If Christian marriage is just a convenient pleasure arrangement, then Christ has not loved the Church.
Or rather, Christ has divorced the Church (cf. Reformation), therefore divorcing my sick spouse is okay.
If my spouse commits adultery, then I can commit adultery in return, because Christ supposedly abandoned the unfaithful historical Church. Our mutual gift of self can be incomplete and contracepted, because Christ didn’t really give Himself totally and irrevocably to His Church and become one flesh with her, but held Himself back for the pure Protestant spiritual body of believers.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Pat does seem to get into trouble often with his words. Television just makes it worse. Divorce is a terrible thing.
I divorced my first husband, remarried years later and divorced again. I should never have gotten the first divorce—worst mistake of my life.
These days it’s too easy to get married and it’s far too easy to get divorced.
Peace and prayers for Pat. We all make mistakes,
they’re just not usually on television. No need to bash him like a piñata.Anna
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Zooey
Guest
Thank you, Michael.
I just told a friend that I am appalled that Robertson is still apparently running things at his program. He clearly has crossed the line. (Not that he wasn’t outrageous before; but this is, IMO, at least a thousand times worse).
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Edmundus1581
Guest
I had something really good to say in this thread, but you’ve blasted it (the thread) away! :tsktsk:
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Faith1960
Guest
in a misguided youth, I used to watch Brother Pat under the influence of herbs which I have long since renounced. He was a hoot
Your post cracked me up!
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twopekinguys
Guest
Personally, I think that is the only way someone could watch him. I know I never could and be totally sober at the same time.I could very well be mistaken as, in a misguided youth, I used to watch Brother Pat under the influence of herbs which I have long since renounced. He was a hoot
God bless and sorry if I gave false wittness.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Then he’ll run afoul the Word of God.
Numbers 30:1] Moses said to the heads of the tribes of the people of Israel, “This is what the LORD has commanded. 2] When a man vows a vow to the LORD, or swears an oath to bind himself by a pledge, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. 3] Or when a woman vows a vow to the LORD, and binds herself by a pledge, while within her father’s house, in her youth, 4] and her father hears of her vow and of her pledge by which she has bound herself, and says nothing to her; then all her vows shall stand, and every pledge by which she has bound herself shall stand. 5] But if her father expresses disapproval to her on the day that he hears of it, no vow of hers, no pledge by which she has bound herself, shall stand; and the LORD will forgive her, because her father opposed her. 6] And if she is married to a husband, while under her vows or any thoughtless utterance of her lips by which she has bound herself, 7] and her husband hears of it, and says nothing to her on the day that he hears; then her vows shall stand, and her pledges by which she has bound herself shall stand. 8] But if, on the day that her husband comes to hear of it, he expresses disapproval, then he shall make void her vow which was on her, and the thoughtless utterance of her lips, by which she bound herself; and the LORD will forgive her. 9] But any vow of a widow or of a divorced woman, anything by which she has bound herself, shall stand against her. 10] And if she vowed in her husband’s house, or bound herself by a pledge with an oath, 11] and her husband heard of it, and said nothing to her, and did not oppose her; then all her vows shall stand, and every pledge by which she bound herself shall stand. 12] But if her husband makes them null and void on the day that he hears them, then whatever proceeds out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning her pledge of herself, shall not stand: her husband has made them void, and the LORD will forgive her. 13] Any vow and any binding oath to afflict herself, her husband may establish, or her husband may make void. 14] But if her husband says nothing to her from day to day, then he establishes all her vows, or all her pledges, that are upon her; he has established them, because he said nothing to her on the day that he heard of them. 15] But if he makes them null and void after he has heard of them, then he shall bear her iniquity.”
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JustaServant
Guest
If I were Mrs. Robertson I would be very VERY nervous.
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Church_Militant
Guest
If I were Mrs. Robertson I would be very VERY nervous.
Sad but true.
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Zooey
Guest
:sad_yes:
I married my wife many years ago. We were both young, attractive, and a bit naive.
Years later, that young wife I married is gone. Gone forever. In her place is an attractive older women that has grown in wisdom and in love with me.
Is it possible that I could claim a ‘kind of death’ since the women I married so many years ago is gone forever?
Pat is mistaking change for death…God only knows how.
Z
Zooey
Guest
I knew a woman who married the love of her life when she was 19 & he was 21. He was tall, strong, & handsome. They owned their own home, built with his own hands for that young bride, & they lived there until WWI, when they moved to the city so he could work in a plant that helped support the war effort.
One night on his way home from work, he stood next to a man who was coughing a little…like a cold, you know? He thought of it, only because his own father had died of influenza when he was just a boy…but when he woke up in the morning, he did not go to work. That “cold” was the dreaded Spanish Influenza, that killed 90% of its victims.
But he survived, because she willed him to survive. She sent their little girl to her brother & his wife to care for, & she brought him back from the very jaws of death. But he never worked again. He was crippled for life, struck down not only by the Flu Pandemic, but by the Postviral Arthritis that bent him over almost double. But he lived…until he caught pneumonia,during the 2nd WW, & could not breathe bent over so…And he died at 54. She had loved him & cared for him, & worked & supported their little family all those years.
She was faithful to that husband–bent, worn, broken by disease,no longer able to make a living. They had lost their home, but she had loved him all those years, & she would go on to love him for the decades that followed, with her left alone until she died in her nineties.
I suspect that Pat Robertson may be thankful that my grandmother has gone on into the Presence of her Saviour, re-united at last with my grandfather. For if she were here, that little widow woman would take a fast train to Virginia & box that wicked, wicked man’s ears. And then, I suspect, she would his mouth out with lye soap.
I am, I confess,
halfway tempted to do so myslef…
One night on his way home from work, he stood next to a man who was coughing a little…like a cold, you know? He thought of it, only because his own father had died of influenza when he was just a boy…but when he woke up in the morning, he did not go to work. That “cold” was the dreaded Spanish Influenza, that killed 90% of its victims.
But he survived, because she willed him to survive. She sent their little girl to her brother & his wife to care for, & she brought him back from the very jaws of death. But he never worked again. He was crippled for life, struck down not only by the Flu Pandemic, but by the Postviral Arthritis that bent him over almost double. But he lived…until he caught pneumonia,during the 2nd WW, & could not breathe bent over so…And he died at 54. She had loved him & cared for him, & worked & supported their little family all those years.
She was faithful to that husband–bent, worn, broken by disease,no longer able to make a living. They had lost their home, but she had loved him all those years, & she would go on to love him for the decades that followed, with her left alone until she died in her nineties.
I suspect that Pat Robertson may be thankful that my grandmother has gone on into the Presence of her Saviour, re-united at last with my grandfather. For if she were here, that little widow woman would take a fast train to Virginia & box that wicked, wicked man’s ears. And then, I suspect, she would his mouth out with lye soap.
I am, I confess,
halfway tempted to do so myslef…
S
sallybutler
Guest
According to Jesus, no divorce (mark 10:5-12). However, maybe He didn’t know about Alzheimers. I’m sure if He did, He would have made the exception 
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melbanglican
Guest
I make no pretensions to being a paragon of virtue. I’m a relatively new Christian (one year) and am still on a steep learning curve. I’m also trying to introduce into my life some of the practices found amongst the earliest Christians (Lord’s Prayer 3x per day, fasting on Wed & Fri, etc. - some are tough for a start, but I’m enjoying the challenge).
However, I cannot find anywhere in my searches for the most ancient beliefs and practices anything which permits or encourages action such as that taken by Pat Robertson. I believe that God will give me the the ability and the fortitude to deal with the situation, should a loved be struck down by such an ailment. Why does Pat not believe the same thing?
I guess the Didache offers us, as Christians, a way of dealing with Pat
2:7) {Thou shalt not hate} any man, {but some thou shalt reprove,} and for others thou shalt pray …Peace be with you all.
J
JReducation
Guest
The problem with Rev. Robertson’s position is that it violates justice. There are several points in the teachings of Jesus that apply here.
"Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s ; and to God the things that are God’s." (Mt. 22:21b)
We promised God and man fidelity and perseverence until death. It’s not a matter of whether the wording of the vows is found in Scripture. At the end of the day, that’s irrelevant. What is very relevant is the moral principal of Justice found in Scripture. You give to man and God what is due to them. Where is the fidelity and the perseverence that one promised? How does an illness render that vow null and void?
It seems to me that this the same mentality of those who abort the child who has a disability or euthenize the patient who is a burden or who is suffering. The challenge ceases to be a challenge and becomes a problem to be avoided. Is this justice?
Then there is this other moral principle
’For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat ; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink ; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ (Mt 25: 35-36).
Are these duties that we owe to others, but not to the spouse? Again, where is justice?
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy," (Mt. 5:7)
There is also the moral principle of mercy. Do spouses not deserve mercy from each other? If we say that the spouse who is imposed upon cannot be expected to render such mercy, what kind of society are we building? If the home, which is the primal Church is the first to abdicate justice, mercy and love, what can and should we expect of the rest of society?
Finally, does the Scripture not say
"The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF’," (Mt 24:39)
It does not say that you love yourself first. That’s the great lie of the modern world to interpret this command as such. To love another AS one loves himself, has a double meaning. It means to love with the same intensity and it means to love the other along with the self. The other becomes a part of who** I am.** Isn’t that how God calls himself, “I am.” Then, the command to love God above all things and the neighbor as self, when the other becomes who I am, is a circular command. It begins with God and ends with God.
To abandon a spouse or any human being at a time of need is to abdicate love.
Where the marriage vows are liturgical compositions, the moral rights and duties of man are not. It is to these that the marriage vows speak.
Who said that Scripture has to mention every single word that man utters in order to bind him? If that were true, then it would be the only source of Revelation and God’s voice would be handcuffed, bound and contained in one means of communication. That’s rather limiting for one who is eternal.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
"Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s ; and to God the things that are God’s." (Mt. 22:21b)
We promised God and man fidelity and perseverence until death. It’s not a matter of whether the wording of the vows is found in Scripture. At the end of the day, that’s irrelevant. What is very relevant is the moral principal of Justice found in Scripture. You give to man and God what is due to them. Where is the fidelity and the perseverence that one promised? How does an illness render that vow null and void?
It seems to me that this the same mentality of those who abort the child who has a disability or euthenize the patient who is a burden or who is suffering. The challenge ceases to be a challenge and becomes a problem to be avoided. Is this justice?
Then there is this other moral principle
’For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat ; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink ; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ (Mt 25: 35-36).
Are these duties that we owe to others, but not to the spouse? Again, where is justice?
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy," (Mt. 5:7)
There is also the moral principle of mercy. Do spouses not deserve mercy from each other? If we say that the spouse who is imposed upon cannot be expected to render such mercy, what kind of society are we building? If the home, which is the primal Church is the first to abdicate justice, mercy and love, what can and should we expect of the rest of society?
Finally, does the Scripture not say
"The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF’," (Mt 24:39)
It does not say that you love yourself first. That’s the great lie of the modern world to interpret this command as such. To love another AS one loves himself, has a double meaning. It means to love with the same intensity and it means to love the other along with the self. The other becomes a part of who** I am.** Isn’t that how God calls himself, “I am.” Then, the command to love God above all things and the neighbor as self, when the other becomes who I am, is a circular command. It begins with God and ends with God.
To abandon a spouse or any human being at a time of need is to abdicate love.
Where the marriage vows are liturgical compositions, the moral rights and duties of man are not. It is to these that the marriage vows speak.
Who said that Scripture has to mention every single word that man utters in order to bind him? If that were true, then it would be the only source of Revelation and God’s voice would be handcuffed, bound and contained in one means of communication. That’s rather limiting for one who is eternal.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Miriam1947
Guest
Zooey, you totally made me cry.
Wow.
Wow.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
melbanglican,I make no pretensions to being a paragon of virtue. I’m a relatively new Christian (one year) and am still on a steep learning curve. I’m also trying to introduce into my life some of the practices found amongst the earliest Christians (Lord’s Prayer 3x per day, fasting on Wed & Fri, etc. - some are tough for a start, but I’m enjoying the challenge).
However, I cannot find anywhere in my searches for the most ancient beliefs and practices anything which permits or encourages action such as that taken by Pat Robertson. I believe that God will give me the the ability and the fortitude to deal with the situation, should a loved be struck down by such an ailment. Why does Pat not believe the same thing?
I guess the Didache offers us, as Christians, a way of dealing with Pat
Peace be with you all.
Very well said. One would never know you are a “relatively new Christian.” Hold on to that charitable view of others. It’s a good reminder for all of us.
Peace and blessings,
Anna
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
Zooey, etaylor, hn160WOW
You hit it out of the park Zooey
Remember the Movie “Good Will Hunting” (forget the f-bombs) but Robin Williams’ character, the shrink, delivers a blast to the smart alec math genius about all the wonderful, unforgettable moments about being married and he cries. His true love is gone, she’s dead and the goofy, off-beat things about being human are precious to him and make it all the better. He notices the little things and they are dear to him and would never trade time with his beloved for anything. That was amazing writing, the best part of the film & Williams’ certainly did it justice.
The Lord died for the soul whose mind has withered; these dear ones are so precious and that is when THEY NEED THEIR SPOUSE’S LOVE & DEDICATION THE MOST, NOT SELFISH BETRAYAL & REJECTION when the going gets tough. Life is so short, Eternity forever.
“pick up your cross and follow me” plus: “my yoke is easy and my burden is light” The Lord is there to back us up in time of trial, never gives us a cross too heavy
Why didn’t Pat Robertson say this? Maybe HE HAS ALZHEIMER’S & FORGOT:blush:
You hit it out of the park Zooey
Remember the Movie “Good Will Hunting” (forget the f-bombs) but Robin Williams’ character, the shrink, delivers a blast to the smart alec math genius about all the wonderful, unforgettable moments about being married and he cries. His true love is gone, she’s dead and the goofy, off-beat things about being human are precious to him and make it all the better. He notices the little things and they are dear to him and would never trade time with his beloved for anything. That was amazing writing, the best part of the film & Williams’ certainly did it justice.
The Lord died for the soul whose mind has withered; these dear ones are so precious and that is when THEY NEED THEIR SPOUSE’S LOVE & DEDICATION THE MOST, NOT SELFISH BETRAYAL & REJECTION when the going gets tough.
Life is so short, Eternity forever.“pick up your cross and follow me” plus: “my yoke is easy and my burden is light” The Lord is there to back us up in time of trial, never gives us a cross too heavy
Why didn’t Pat Robertson say this? Maybe HE HAS ALZHEIMER’S & FORGOT:blush:
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