Pater Nosters

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I’ve read that in the Middle Ages, the Our Father was recited a number of times in Latin on counting beads by the laity, in place of the divine office 150 psalms.

Lay people adopted this as a popular form of worship. And that this was split into decades, and was the forerunner of the rosary.

I tend to vary my prayers to keep it interesting. I’m currently learing the latin Pater Noster. And am just wondering if anyone on CAF prays Pater Nosters, as an alternative to, or as well as the Rosary.
 
I’ve read that in the Middle Ages, the Our Father was recited a number of times in Latin on counting beads by the laity, in place of the divine office 150 psalms.

Lay people adopted this as a popular form of worship. And that this was split into decades, and was the forerunner of the rosary.

I tend to vary my prayers to keep it interesting. I’m currently learing the latin Pater Noster. And am just wondering if anyone on CAF prays Pater Nosters, as an alternative to, or as well as the Rosary.
I have done this many times.

You are right, the original rosary was said with 150 repetitions of “Our Father” as the basic prayer. It is, after all, the perfect prayer, right from the lips of Jesus (although he would have used Aramaic rather than Latin, Greek or English). The rosary is a version of chaplet.

You are free to compose your own prayer rule. If you ever stopped into a Catholic bookstore and saw all those chaplets named after saints, with their special little ring of beads or knotted rope you can see that over the years many others have done just that. One of my favorites was called the chaplet of Saint Patrick, that consists of several reptitions of the doxology, but which I doubt was actually used by him (it’s a nice story).

Another one of the more popular of these prayer rules is the Jesus prayer (prayer of the heart) said repeatedly. It’s lovely and inspiring.
 
One thing I have noticed whilst learning the pater noster, is the beauty of the latin language.

Although it may sound strange to some, I find that praying in latin, somehow makes a the prayer more powerful. And gives a spiritual connection to the past as pater nosters have been prayed by devout Christians for the last 2000 years.

I have also read that the english “lead us not into temptation” is actually a mistranslation, as the letter of James makes clear God does not lead us into temptation.

Thanks for the comments above 🙂
 
I’ve read that in the Middle Ages, the Our Father was recited a number of times in Latin on counting beads by the laity, in place of the divine office 150 psalms.

Lay people adopted this as a popular form of worship. And that this was split into decades, and was the forerunner of the rosary.

I tend to vary my prayers to keep it interesting. I’m currently learing the latin Pater Noster. And am just wondering if anyone on CAF prays Pater Nosters, as an alternative to, or as well as the Rosary.
The history of the Rosary is a little more complex than that, while I don’t doubt what you write about Pater Nostrer. However the basis of the Rosary (which I do firmly believe was divinely given to us via the Blessed Virgin and St. Dominic) is the Psalster which interestingly, the Blessed Virgin did refer to the Rosary as “her palster”.

A psalter would be prayed on a beaded or knotted rope, with 150 beads/knots. The number, not so conincidently, conensides exactly with the number of psalms (hence the name). The tradition was, while traveling religions (and lay) while walking down the road would pray the psalms on the psalster as they walked. Sort of a medevil “name that license plate”, only more useful since you get real graces from this.

When the Blessed Virgin gave dominic the Rosary, she took something familiar to him (and all of Christian Europe) and turned it into something new, and greater than it was before.

As to whether anyone presonally prays a medevil psalster or Pater Noster in lue of a Rosary… I guess anyone can individually do what they want, but I don’t know that there’s any real tradition upon which this could be based.

Oh, incidently I would highly recommend you famliarize your self with the Rosary. I think you will find that you receive many great graces by praying the Rosary. It allows you to meditate upon the mysteries of Christ’s life in a way most of us very rarely get to. You will find it a very powerful experience, I know I have. It’s really changed my life fundamentally.
 
As to whether anyone presonally prays a medevil psalster or Pater Noster in lue of a Rosary… I guess anyone can individually do what they want, but I don’t know that there’s any real tradition upon which this could be based.

Oh, incidently I would highly recommend you famliarize your self with the Rosary. I think you will find that you receive many great graces by praying the Rosary. It allows you to meditate upon the mysteries of Christ’s life in a way most of us very rarely get to. You will find it a very powerful experience, I know I have. It’s really changed my life fundamentally.
I am thinking about praying the rosary, but to be honest all those haily mails are unfamiliar to non-Catholics 🙂

Reciting paternosters by the laity certainly preceded the recitation of Hail Mary’s. I was interested if anyone of CAF prayed this, in addition to the rosary, not necessarily as an alternative.

“In many monastic rules, it was enjoined that the lay brothers, who knew no Latin, instead of the Divine office should say the Lord’s Prayer a certain number of times (often amounting to more than a hundred) per diem. To count these repetitions they made use of pebbles or beads strung upon a cord, and this apparatus was commonly known as a “pater-noster”, a name which it retained even when such a string of beads was used to count, not Our Fathers, but Hail Marys in reciting Our Lady’s Psalter, or in other words in saying the rosary.” newadvent.org
 
Hi Crazzeto,
… However the basis of the Rosary (which I do firmly believe was divinely given to us via the Blessed Virgin and St. Dominic) is the Psalster which interestingly, the Blessed Virgin did refer to the Rosary as “her palster”.
Which is actually incorrect.

The rosary is not a psalter. It is a chaplet.
A psalter would be prayed on a beaded or knotted rope, with 150 beads/knots.
No, a psalter is an organized collection/recitation of the psalms.
 
It should not be forgotten that the greatest value in praying the rosary is that it is a meditation on the life of Christ, not just a repetition of Hail Marys and Our Fathers. It is actually the most scriptural of all prayers when done properly, i.e. meditation upon the Joyful, Luminous, Sorrowful and Glorious mysteries. It immerses us, on a daily basis, into the life of Christ, and places us in God’s presence in a very special way.
 
Hi Crazzeto,
Which is actually incorrect.

The rosary is not a psalter. It is a chaplet.
No, a psalter is an organized collection/recitation of the psalms.
A chaplet is what you pray on the Rosary, the physical rosary is derived from the physical psalster. There’s a reason for the numbering of beeds/knots on a rosary, it’s derived from the Psalster.

So yes, one prays a a chaplet on a rosary. Or more specifically, one may pray a chaplet on the rosary, you do indeed have the option of praying less and I’ve received less as penance after confession. This would be when you pray 1 decade on the Rosary. It’s important to have this distinction in mind when we try to understand what a Rosary is and isn’t.

A chaplet (a plaited crown of Roses, which should provide Christians some vivide imagry from about John 19) is praying 5 mysteries of the rosary (that is 5 decades) which brings you around the whole 150 numbering of beeds.

So yes, the Rosary is derived from the Psalster. It is not a Psalter it’s self anymore, not it is something different and IMHO greater as it was a divine gift, where as the Psalter was a very pious but humaly derived endevor.

God bless,
 
I am thinking about praying the rosary, but to be honest all those haily mails are unfamiliar to non-Catholics 🙂

Reciting paternosters by the laity certainly preceded the recitation of Hail Mary’s. I was interested if anyone of CAF prayed this, in addition to the rosary, not necessarily as an alternative.

“In many monastic rules, it was enjoined that the lay brothers, who knew no Latin, instead of the Divine office should say the Lord’s Prayer a certain number of times (often amounting to more than a hundred) per diem. To count these repetitions they made use of pebbles or beads strung upon a cord, and this apparatus was commonly known as a “pater-noster”, a name which it retained even when such a string of beads was used to count, not Our Fathers, but Hail Marys in reciting Our Lady’s Psalter, or in other words in saying the rosary.” newadvent.org
I can understand that at first the concept of the Hail Mary might be Alien to many non-orthodox Christians. However I would urge you not to let this be a block, once you pray the mysteries and truely meditate on them you will find your self closer to Christ than you ever were before. You will understand him much better, because you will have meditated upon his face with the help of his Blessed Mother who witenessed each mystery first hand.

God bless,
 
A chaplet is what you pray on the Rosary, the physical rosary is derived from the physical psalster. There’s a reason for the numbering of beeds/knots on a rosary, it’s derived from the Psalster.
It was numbered to 150 in imitation of the real psalter. The rosary did not start out as 150 different psalms.

The majority of Christians in medeival Europe were not monks, and could not read nor have the opportunity to memorize the psalms (nor the other prayers which accompany them in a psalter).

So they did this: repeating the same short prayer 150 times, with no prescribed meditations. That is a chaplet, and it is the original rosary. What did happen in time was a switch from saying 150 ‘Our Fathers’ to 150 ‘Hail Mary’s’.

So the rosary is a chaplet, one of many.

Now of course, today there are meditations as well, but I am pretty sure that these were not done at the time of Saint Dominic (if we want to use him as some sort of historical marker).

But it should be clear to anyone the rosary is a chaplet, and never was a psalter.
 
It was numbered to 150 in imitation of the real psalter. The rosary did not start out as 150 different psalms.

The majority of Christians in medeival Europe were not monks, and could not read nor have the opportunity to memorize the psalms (nor the other prayers which accompany them in a psalter).

So they did this: repeating the same short prayer 150 times, with no prescribed meditations. That is a chaplet, and it is the original rosary. What did happen in time was a switch from saying 150 ‘Our Fathers’ to 150 ‘Hail Mary’s’.

So the rosary is a chaplet, one of many.

Now of course, today there are meditations as well, but I am pretty sure that these were not done at the time of Saint Dominic (if we want to use him as some sort of historical marker).

But it should be clear to anyone the rosary is a chaplet, and never was a psalter.
Hesychios,

If you want to find the true roots of the Rosary one would look to the Psalster. That’s just reality, do any digging on the history of the Rosary. The Psalster is the forerunner of it. The Psalster is why you even have 150 beeds/knots on a rope in the first place, it is the origin of this particular sacramental.

God bless,
 
Hesychios,

If you want to find the true roots of the Rosary one would look to the Psalster. That’s just reality, do any digging on the history of the Rosary. The Psalster is the forerunner of it. The Psalster is why you even have 150 beeds/knots on a rope in the first place, it is the origin of this particular sacramental.

God bless,
Imitation is not continuation.

The recitation of 150 prayers of the Pater Noster did not replace the psalms, for the educated class and the monastics and clergy continued to pray the psalms as they always have. In fact, the psalter is the Liturgy of the Hours and designated the official prayer of the church.

The praying of the chaplet called the rosary (a chaplet of roses) does not have a common origin with the praying of the psalms, otherwise it would contain the psalms and we could call it a psalter. The rosary is a private devotion, not the official prayer of the church, it doesn’t contain psalms, it is not and never has been a psalter. It is a more recent invention.

Your claim doesn’t make any more sense than saying the earliest bridge was a ferry, or the earliest bicycle was a wagon.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but it is always imitation.
 
Imitation is not continuation.

The recitation of 150 prayers of the Pater Noster did not replace the psalms, for the educated class and the monastics and clergy continued to pray the psalms as they always have. In fact, the psalter is the Liturgy of the Hours and designated the official prayer of the church.

The praying of the chaplet called the rosary (a chaplet of roses) does not have a common origin with the praying of the psalms, otherwise it would contain the psalms and we could call it a psalter. The rosary is a private devotion, not the official prayer of the church, it doesn’t contain psalms, it is not and never has been a psalter. It is a more recent invention.

Your claim doesn’t make any more sense than saying the earliest bridge was a ferry, or the earliest bicycle was a wagon.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but it is always imitation.
OK then… I guess this is going no where and frankly I’m begining to feel like this just isn’t worth it anymore.

To the OP:
Again, don’t let the Hail Mary’s be a distraction to the Rosary. If it helps any, I would suggest you read perhaps the first couple chapters of the Gosple of Luke and keep in mind

“Hail Mary, Full of Grace the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruite of thy womb Jesus” in particular. I would also invite you to pray a “fully featured” rosary… What I mean by that is this,

Typically particularly in a setting where a group rosary is prayed (religious setting) some aspects with it our dispensed for brevity’s sake, as well as everyone “being able to follow along”. Typically the first to go, is reading the scripture associated with the mystery before beginning to pray each mystery of the Rosary. Also dispenced is making a petition prior to each mystery, asking for greater knowlege and understanding of this mystery.

I would say do not dispense with this, it is critical to fully experiencing the power of the rosary. To help you along some, I’ve attached a PDF instructional pamphlet I’ve used (created with the AID of my churches CCD department) in CCD class. It includes all prayers except for one, final prayer now typically added to the end of the rosary. But I would say this is good primer.
 
Dear Friends,

A fascinating thread!

The term “psalter” was, in the West, used to define the recitation of 150 prayers such as Our Father’s and Hail Mary’s. The Western Saints referred to the Rosary as the “Marian Psalter” and the “Pater Noster Psalter.”

And they preferred “psalter” to “rosary.”

People sometimes memorized one psalm, such as Psalm 23, and repeated it 150 times (a substitute for the regular Psalter of David).

Or they would count the verses of the entire Psalter of David and repeat a single psalm verse that many times.

150 Our Father’s did indeed replace the praying of 150 psalms in the West and also replaced the praying of the Divine Office (usually 75 or so Our Father’s). The Hail Mary Rosary can also be used to replace the Divine Office in the West.

The practice of praying Pater Nosters was very widespread, especially in the West.

From the constant mouthing of “Pater Noster” comes our “pitter patter” phrase.

A “Pater Noster” can also refer to a rotating vine-like plant. The Guild of the Pater Nosters’ (such as in London) made strings of beads for this devotion and the Pater Noster beads resembled Rosary beads except they were not connected at the ends - so it was more of a single string of beads.

Franciscan Tertiaries may still replace their daily Office with the recitation of 76 Our Fathers (an Our Father on every bead of their Franciscan Rosary).

It takes about an hour and a half to say 150 Our Father’s - the spiritual consolation in so doing is simply, well, heavenly . . . 😉

Love you people!

Alex
 
I’ve read that in the Middle Ages, the Our Father was recited a number of times in Latin on counting beads by the laity, in place of the divine office 150 psalms.

Lay people adopted this as a popular form of worship. And that this was split into decades, and was the forerunner of the rosary.

I tend to vary my prayers to keep it interesting. I’m currently learing the latin Pater Noster. And am just wondering if anyone on CAF prays Pater Nosters, as an alternative to, or as well as the Rosary.
I learned the “Our Father” in Latin as a young boy just from hearing the priest chant it. Learned the Hail Mary in Gaelic because I wanted to and because my great grandparents were Gaelic speaking and they recited the whole rosary in Gaelic every evening. My father used to go over to their house when they did, and I love the thought of it. Learned both prayers in French because I took French and wanted to know them in French.

So, though I don’t know that this is responsive to your question, yes, I often do say the “Our Father” in Latin when saying the Rosary. Also, sometimes I will say a decade in Gaelic or French or some of each.

Why do I do that?

Well, saying the “Our Father” in Latin reminds me of that sense of awe I had as a young boy, listening to the priest chant it. Somehow, it prevents my mind from wandering at all, and takes me back to the piety and reverence the chant evoked.

And the Gaelic? Well, it makes me think of my great grandparents and the simple piety they knew in a simpler age; one not so given to cynicism and the impatience that sometimes makes us pray too fast. (Takes awhile to say the rosary in Gaelic)

The French? Well, I’m not sure, but I think it causes me to focus on the words and their meaning a little more, because notwithstanding that I know the prayers by heart and exceedingly well in French, my mind still “translates” them, and I think about them more.

The words of any language don’t exactly translate into any other. Not quite. And those differences, however slight, (as is the case with French and English, which translate almost exactly) make one think about them. For example; “Hail Mary” in French, is “Je vous salue, Marie”. Close, but not quite the same thing. Literally translated, the French would be more like “I salute you, Mary”. “Amen” in French, literally translated, is more like “and so it absolutely must be”.

Guess I am not too good at praying or I wouldn’t be doing all that stuff. But it’s helpful to me, and I like it.

Also, and I don’t know why this is, but no matter what I do, when the Creed is recited at Mass, my mind turns it into Latin even though I’m saying it in English. Again, I just more or less learned that from hearing it over and over, years ago. It’s an involuntary 'continuity", but it is not mentally unwelcome to me.

Well, the same is true of the “Kyrie”. My mind says “Kyrie Eleison” and “Christae Eleison” even though I’m saying “Lord have mercy” and “Christ have mercy”. Puts my mind back to the early days of the Church when the Mass was in Greek in most of the world, and of the unity all Christians, east and west, once had. It’s a “communion of saints” kind of thing to me.

Personally, I see nothing wrong in learning the Latin for prayer.
 
=Dave B_;7545680]I’ve read that in the Middle Ages, the Our Father was recited a number of times in Latin on counting beads by the laity, in place of the divine office 150 psalms.
Lay people adopted this as a popular form of worship. And that this was split into decades, and was the forerunner of the rosary.
I tend to vary my prayers to keep it interesting. I’m currently learing the latin Pater Noster. And am just wondering if anyone on CAF prays Pater Nosters, as an alternative to, or as well as the Rosary.
ALL prayer is Spiritually beneficial, so what works best for you is a GO!

In addition to the Daily Rosary, I also do*** The Chaplet of Divine Mercy.***

God Bless,
Pat
 
One thing I have noticed whilst learning the pater noster, is the beauty of the latin language.

Although it may sound strange to some, I find that praying in latin, somehow makes a the prayer more powerful. And gives a spiritual connection to the past as pater nosters have been prayed by devout Christians for the last 2000 years.

I have also read that the english “lead us not into temptation” is actually a mistranslation, as the letter of James makes clear God does not lead us into temptation.

Thanks for the comments above 🙂
How does “Et ne nos inducas in tentationem” not equal “And lead us not into temptation”?
 
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