Path to Forgiveness in other abrahamic religions

[Kliska]

The latter statement does not conform to Jewish teaching even in the days of the Temple, when sacrifices were meant only for unintentional sins, not intentional sins, and even in the former case, were the WEAKEST form of atonement. Moreover, the sacrifices were not limited to the blood sacrifices of animals, as Leviticus clearly states that grains could also be used. And many people did not even have access to the Temple since they were poor and lived too far away. Thus, according to Isaiah, the power of repentance initiated by prayer does indeed wipe away sins: “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow…”

But the key with the OT sacrifices from the Christian perspective is that the whole system points to and is fulfilled by Christ. You are absolutely right as to the different grain offerings, etc… and each has their reflection in Jesus, from our perspective. However it remains that the temple and sacrifice were set up as a public display for a reason, as others thing recorded in the OT were, and that is to teach that for sin comes death. All of the various sacrifices and the sprinkling of the blood, and specific commands for specific sacrifices for specific sins was a visceral, visual show and reminder of the cost of disobedience, even as you say, if it was unintentional sin (which widens it even more). There were a myriad of reasons, and there was the need of the sacrifices for sin or else God commanded something that was meaningless God doesn’t operate that way.

 

[Kliska]

So, rather than considering what I wrote, giving me the benefit of the doubt that I went through various passages to even understand my own scriptures, rather than that, you would rather believe the opposite of what I said, the entire passage that deals with the entire spectrum of human works and come up with your own theory. Wow. Kliska, just be real. You were never interested in what I had to say; you just wanted an excuse to distort something about Islam. I wasted hours of my time going through the Qur’an because I assumed you would have a shred of integrity to actually think through an answer I would give.

I have just about had it with you people. I do not believe I can trust christians anymore. You people on this forum are consistent in your desire to make me feel like dirt.

I’m sorry you feel that way, I’m extremely confused about this reaction. I sincerely wish to understand your perspective, and am also trying to have a discussion, it certainly wasn’t to make you feel like dirt.

I was confused by some of the different bits of your reply, and as I know you know, the Qur’an isn’t always easy to understand esp for someone who does not speak Arabic. I’m a protestant Christian, a non-liturgical one at that, and even my understanding vs. a Catholic understanding of Christian scripture on things like repentance and faith and works is different in the details, though not on the whole. I say that with the hope you will see I was not trying to attack you at all. Again, I apologize, and will back out of this particular discussion now.

 

[Mystophilus]

I have just about had it with you people. I do not believe I can trust christians anymore. You people on this forum are consistent in your desire to make me feel like dirt.

Please, do not give up on us all just yet.

While I agree that there are individual on this forum who can be … challenging to deal with, there are also some whom I (despite being a heretic, apparently) have found to be quite the opposite, and I am sure that the rest of us could, at the very least, benefit from someone who can explain a Muslim perspective as clearly and coherently as you do.

In other words, please, forgive us.

 

[Mystophilus]

The latter statement does not conform to Jewish teaching even in the days of the Temple, when sacrifices were meant only for unintentional sins, not intentional sins …] As is so often the case in Judaism, moving toward positive behavior is the ultimate goal, and not simply forgoing negative behavior.

So, would you say that the intention, negative or positive, is more important than the action itself? I am not asking whether you think that the end justifies the means, or any other such folly, but rather whether, to your understanding, G-d is primarily concerned with why we act in a particular way.

My reason for asking concerns the following:
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I have been told that the intention-based thought here is (in its time) peculiar to Jesus, but what you are describing sounds very similar.

 

[Mystophilus]

I would be surprised if faith wasn’t a requirement for salvation, but it seems works are a definite requirement, and not only works, but one’s good works must outweigh the bad.

You may have missed the part where drac16 said, “At no point has someone done enough to earn Paradise; it cannot be earned.” That is not a works-based salvation.

In Christianity Justice is in no wise trumped by Mercy, for God has declared for sin comes death, and there must be blood to wipe out sin.

You and I have very different ideas of justice, then, because I would not describe the shedding of blood as being just atonement for rape and murder, and thus I would have to describe God’s acceptance of a blood sacrifice for it as an act of mercy, not of justice. I would likewise have to describe the very idea of the Incarnation as inherently unjust, because Jesus did not deserve the suffering which he took upon himself, and thus that too I would describe as mercy trumping justice. That is, after all, what grace is all about.

 

[aidanbradypop]

We are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, and we become in right relationship to the Father via the Son. What that looks like is faith in Jesus; Who He is, What He has done, and the Sacrifice He became for us. When Christ said, “it is finished” He had paid every price for sin, becoming sin itself, paying all sin debt. It is our faith in Christ that taps into the grace of God. That is salvation and it includes forgiveness of sin. Sanctification involves confessing our sins directly to God, confessing our sins one to another, making restitution where we can, if we can, and yielding to the Holy Spirit as He changes us, so that with God’s help we become more and more conformed to the image of the Son.

ETA; non-denom protestant here

I couldn’t have stated it better.

 

[meltzerboy]

So, would you say that the intention, negative or positive, is more important than the action itself? I am not asking whether you think that the end justifies the means, or any other such folly, but rather whether, to your understanding, G-d is primarily concerned with why we act in a particular way.

My reason for asking concerns the following:
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I have been told that the intention-based thought here is (in its time) peculiar to Jesus, but what you are describing sounds very similar.

Our intention is certainly important according to Judaism since G-d looks into our hearts and knows whether or not we are sincere and whether we are doing our best, no matter how little, based on our ability and circumstances. However, behavior is, in some ways, even more important. As many have said about Judaism, it is more an orthoprax than an orthodox religion in that action speaks louder than words or passive faith. That is why, for example, Jewish teaching states that charity toward others which is given grudgingly and, apparently, without sincerity, although lowest on the list of helping, is nonetheless better than not giving any aid at all.

 

[Mystophilus]

Our intention is certainly important according to Judaism since G-d looks into our hearts and knows whether or not we are sincere and whether we are doing our best, no matter how little, based on our ability and circumstances. However, behavior is, in some ways, even more important. As many have said about Judaism, it is more an orthoprax than an orthodox religion in that action speaks louder than words or passive faith. That is why, for example, Jewish teaching states that charity toward others which is given grudgingly and, apparently, without sincerity, although lowest on the list of helping, is nonetheless better than not giving any aid at all.

Thank you.