Pathway to Heaven ... as taught by Christ and Gospels

[BRB]

Much is made of Once Saved / Always Saved … based upon Paul’s teachings. However, a survey of all verses on the topic in Matthew & Gospel of John suggest the following:

Heaven by faith alone …

       2 of 41 ( 5 %) Matthew,      4 of 46 ( 8 %) John.

Heaven by faith, Plus actions ( works) …

        34 of 41 ( 82 %) Matthew,     31 of 46 ( 67 %) in John.

Heaven by faith & confession …

       1 of 41 ( 2%) Matthew,     2 of 46 ( 4 %) in John

The balance of other verses discuss loss of ones faith, Jesus’s prayers for his flock, God’s action in salvation, Sin = slavery to another master.

In summary, Christ usually called for Faith [plus actions] on part of believers. I find little in these two gospels to support the Pauline concept of Once Saved / Always Saved … the Free Ticket to Heaven concept — prevalent in Protestant teachings.

I didn’t survey Luke or Mark … but, I would doubt the teachings of Christ given would be any different from that found in Matthew/John’s Gospels.

The Parables taught by Christ, are particularly instructive on showing that ‘faithful, obedient discipleship’ is expected …if one desires to be ‘justified’ before God, and see Heaven. Jesus clearly puts the emphasis on our actions ( works via H.S.) … as what demonstrates the true intentions of our heart.

Thoughts welcomed …

 

[bogeydogg]

I think the first thing which needs to be said is that St. Paul does not ever contradict the teachings of Jesus. As such, any such assertions are misunderstandings of Paul’s teachings and should be set aside. Although you did not spell out such teachings in your post.

There are many who will claim OSAS theology is taught in the Bible and claim that Paul teaches this because various passages such as Ephesians 2 where Paul says we are saved “not of ourselves but by gift of God.” They then go forward to extrapolate that since it is God who saves us and God’s Spirit who seals us (2Co 1:22, Eph 1:13, 4:30) that this sealing, being a divine work of God, can never be undone. They also use such verses as Jesus’ teaching in John 10: 28, 29 where He tells us that, “none will snatch them out of my hand…” to back this up.

However, such doctrine ignores teachings like Romans 11 where Paul clearly teaches that we may be grafted into the Tree of Life as well as taken out but also Revelation 22:19 where John plainly says that we can have our names removed from the Book of Life forever.

Those who follow OSAS doctrine will say that those who profess faith and then fall away were, “never really saved” but rather were counterfeit from the beginning an they will use examples like Judas to hold up and say that there are plenty who will claim to follow externally but never did internally. They say that since it is God who seals us then man cannot undo what God has done.

Here’s the problem.

How can I be removed from a tree if I were never a part of that tree?

How can my name be removed from a book if it was never written in that book?

The Bible says that I can be saved and then be removed more than once, so how is this possible if it is God who seals me?

cont…

 

[bogeydogg]

Cont…

The answer is that those who follow OSAS doctrine, on some level or another follow the Calvinist model of salvation that man is an involuntary participant in his salvation. They reason that since salvation is 100% a work of God, and God never changes His mind (which by the way the Bible doesn’t say that either) then a man saved by God will always be saved. And they reason backward that those who fall away were never saved in the first place. They will site Calvin, Luther, and even St. Augustine to justify this belief. The only problem with that is that none of those men ever taught this sort of salvation.

Calvin said that man not only can but necessarily must contradict the will of God and he also said that the Doctrine of Predestination is not an article of faith in it’s own right but rather is an ancillary doctrine meant to explain the variety of human responses to Grace. It is worth noting that Calvin is not introducing a Doctrine with which modern day Calvinists would be familiar, that God’s predestination defines the scope of His grace, but rather that Calvin follows the writings of Gregory of Rimini and Hugolino of Orvieto who taught double-predestination (some are destined for Heaven and some for Hell) but only as a means to understand why some accept Grace and others do not. Calvin did not believe in outright double-predestination as a limit on God’s grace and when Zwingli suggested it, Calvin dismissed the teaching as being “Fatalist” in the sense of the Greek Stoics whom Paul roundly renounces in Ephesians.

Luther in the Theses, which got the Reformation going, began with: 1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ in saying: “Repent ye,” intended that the whole life of believers should be penitence.
2. This word cannot be understood of sacramental penance, that is, of the confession and satisfaction which are performed under the ministry of priests.
3. It does not, however, refer solely to inward penitence; nay such inward penitence is naught, unless it outwardly produces various mortifications of the flesh.
4. The penalty I.e. “Pœna,” the connection between “pœna” and “pœnitentia” being again suggestive. thus continues as long as the hatred of self—that is, true inward penitence—continues; namely, till our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

While Luther rejects the authority of the Priest to give absolution, he does not however excuse those who claim to repent and yet have no outward signs of that penitence. In other words, in Luther’s thinking, if my faith does not change my actions, then my faith is not faith.

And St. Augustine said, “The God who gave you free will, will not violate that in order to save you.”

So clearly, those who claim that these men taught OSAS doctrine are on shaky ground.

They cannot fall back on Paul, nor on the supposed hero’s of Protestant Doctrine. So where do they go?

 

[bogeydogg]

at last…

The fact is, those who follow OSAS doctrine have simply divined it from the Ether in an attempt to have their cake and eat it too. They have failed to understand that Paul was writing to people who had not only never heard of Jesus but had also never been taught the Judaistic framework from which it came. Paul was attempting to explain that a man must be saved and that God is willing that men should come to repentance but that this change in life did not come without cost. Those who would misuse Paul to teach OSAS will quote Eph 2:8 but ignore that it goes on to say that we are saved to do good works which He has ordained for us. They only teach the half of the truth that they want to hear. And half the truth is error.

They appeal to men like Luther, Calvin and Augustine but these men didn’t teach OSAS either.

In truth, I feel deeply concerned for those who follow such a doctrine, as I used to believe it myself, and we are obliged to pray for those who have swallowed this deception that they may know the truth and be changed by it.

We are obliged because of the stern warning of Jesus in Matthew 7: 21-23, where He tells us that some who claim to be His never were, not because He didn’t choose them, but because while they claimed to do works in His Name, they were “Workers of Lawlessness.” Given the testimony of Jesus, Paul, Augustine and for the Protestants, Calvin and Luther, we must conclude that this Doctrine is built on sand, and actively try to root it out where ever it is found. We should do this not to try and prove that we are right, but in the Name of Jesus, for His love and for His merciful desire that the lost be gathered and saved.

 

[BRB]

And St. Augustine said, “The God who gave you free will, will not violate that in order to save you.”

So clearly, those who claim that these men taught OSAS doctrine are on shaky ground.

They cannot fall back on Paul, nor on the supposed hero’s of Protestant Doctrine. So where do they go?

b.dogg …

Very nice commentary on salvation theology ! You have done your homework on the subject.

Paul was devoted to faithfull obedience in a life of good works … until his martyrdom. His life spoke volumes about his salvation beliefs. And, we know James believed that faith w/o works was dead. They both looked for ‘Evidenced-based gracious works’ … as reflecting ones true faith and desire to see God.

I have seen Protestant beliefs on morality get tossed out the window over the last 50 years. Mortal sins are practically non-existent for today’s Protestants. How can Protestants read the Bible and miss the key message of Christ … the call to lifelong discipleship - made possible only from a spirit-filled heart ?

Didn’t Christ say he came to save sinners … not the prophets and old testament righteous ? Those old testament jews who were truly righteous and desired to see God … were heaven bound. Probably got a special presentation from Jesus in the underworld … to allow them to meet/accept their promised saviour.

 

[BRB]

I

The Bible says that I can be saved and then be removed more than once,

…

Whats the scriptures that support this ?

My experiences in life tell me it can be the case. A prodigal son/daughter who falls away is welcomed back with open arms more than once … perhaps even 70 X 7 ?

We also are warned that anyone who turns back from Christ is not worthy of the Kingdom. So I doubt we could ever test God with such frequent disobedience of ‘prodigal type’ proportions.

 

[bogeydogg]

As I pointed out earlier; Romans 11: 17-22 says, “17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off”

Seems pretty clear.

But don’t forget Revelation 22: 18,19 say, " 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

One cannot be removed from a book in which his name is not written and one cannot have a portion taken away which he does not already possess. Therefore if a man can commit such a sin as those described in Revelation and Romans then it is possible, in fact certain, that he will lose the gift of Life which God has already given Him.

Mt 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mt 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mr 13:13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

In these three verses, Scripture tells us three times that Jesus warns His disciples that those who fall away during times of persecution will not be saved but only those who are, “firm to the end will be saved.”

It’s actually a very clear teaching of Scripture which OSAS believers are compelled to ignore in order to believe as they do.

 

[BRB]

removed more than once, ?

cont…

I think you were suggesting Bible says this is possible in ‘more than one location’ … eg. more than one verse on subject.

I thought you were suggesting we can be saved, then lost, then saved, relost, multiple times.

While it may be possible to fall away on multiple occasions … I’m not aware of scripture that teaches this. As prodigal sons … we may only get at most a few chances to repent and return.

The spirit draws us back each time we stray … but, at some point it appears God’s tolerance may have limits. At least this appears the teaching of Old Test. For New Testament however, our Good Shepherd may never entirely give up on wayward sheep … until we draw our last breath.