Patriarch Bartholomew Feels "Crucified"

[Chellow]

I know this is not a Catholic news Item, but it doesn’t fit in the other threads also.

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the leader of the 300 million-member Orthodox Christian Church, feels “crucified” living in Turkey under a government he says would like to see his nearly 2,000-year-old Patriarchate die out.

His All Holiness speaks to 60 Minutes correspondent Bob Simon for a story to be broadcast this Sunday, Dec. 20, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

Orthodox Christians trace their roots to the earliest days of Christianity but do not answer to papal authority in Rome. Bartholomew is, in effect, their pope. The Patriarchate in Istanbul, Turkey, dates back to Roman times, when the city, then Constantinople, was the center of Christianity. …Read more

 

[Melkite_Sword]

I know this is not a Catholic news Item, but it doesn’t fit in the other threads also.

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the leader of the 300 million-member Orthodox Christian Church, feels “crucified” living in Turkey under a government he says would like to see his nearly 2,000-year-old Patriarchate die out.

His All Holiness speaks to 60 Minutes correspondent Bob Simon for a story to be broadcast this Sunday, Dec. 20, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

Orthodox Christians trace their roots to the earliest days of Christianity but do not answer to papal authority in Rome. Bartholomew is, in effect, their pope. The Patriarchate in Istanbul, Turkey, dates back to Roman times, when the city, then Constantinople, was the center of Christianity. …Read more

May the Lord Jesus bless the Eastern Orthodox Church in Turkey. I will keep it in my prayers.

Peace

 

[ljubim]

How awful
Something needs to be done! It’s a shame that Turkish law mandates who can and can’t succeed Patriarch B… perhaps Rome can do something.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\
Orthodox Christians trace their roots to the earliest days of Christianity but do not answer to papal authority in Rome. Bartholomew is, in effect, their pope.\

**This is not true. There is simply no equivalent for the Pope in Orthodoxy, though the last few Ecumenical Patriarchs have shown quasi-papal ambitions.

And just what do you expect Rome to do for Orthodoxy?**

 

[Aramis]

With all due respect, your grace, several of the Muscovite Patriarchs have shown papal-equivalence ambitions. Including the refusal to grant auocephaly to the UOC-MP, and interference within the UOC-MP, plus how ROCOR was treated.

Heck, it’s even been commented by 2 in a row that the US should be exclusively OCA, since the OCA is the branch of the MP, and the MP founded Orthodoxy in the US. Further, their Japanese, Chinese, and Mongolian issues, plus the political activism in the Republic of Georgia (former SSR)…

The MP has also, in the past, expressed a corporate desire to be the focal point of modern orthodoxy; so far as to have hierarchs state that the measure of Orthodoxy is in communion with Moscow.

Further, both the current and previous MP have been chided by members of the orthodox world for their authoritarian approach to leading the ROC.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\With all due respect, your grace, several of the Muscovite Patriarchs have shown papal-equivalence ambitions. Including the refusal to grant auocephaly to the UOC-MP, and interference within the UOC-MP, plus how ROCOR was treated.

Heck, it’s even been commented by 2 in a row that the US should be exclusively OCA, since the OCA is the branch of the MP, and the MP founded Orthodoxy in the US. Further, their Japanese, Chinese, and Mongolian issues, plus the political activism in the Republic of Georgia (former SSR).\

**I won’t deny that the MP has been trying to assert herself as well.

ROCOR is now reconciled with the MP. And you cannot deny that Moscow has jurisdiction over its dioceses in Ukraine, though I agree that there should be one united Ukrainian Orthodox Church. (And with Kyr Elias Zoghby, I would go even farther.)

Actually, the “branch” of the MP in the USA is the Vicariate of the Patriarchal Parishes, though I admit it’s anomolous and inconsistent by now.**

 

[eOxy]

**This is not true. There is simply no equivalent for the Pope in Orthodoxy, though the last few Ecumenical Patriarchs have shown quasi-papal ambitions.

And just what do you expect Rome to do for Orthodoxy?**

Well said.

 

[eOxy]

several of the Muscovite Patriarchs have shown papal-equivalence ambitions.

Not quite.

Including the refusal to grant auocephaly to the UOC-MP,

Nobody requested it, they know it would be premature.

and interference within the UOC-MP,

One cannot interfere within himself. UOC-MP is MP. A part of her.

plus how ROCOR was treated.

What in the treatment of ROCOR is related to your point?

Heck, it’s even been commented by 2 in a row that the US should be exclusively OCA, since the OCA is the branch of the MP, and the MP founded Orthodoxy in the US. Further, their Japanese, Chinese, and Mongolian issues,

And? What is there relevant to your point?

plus the political activism in the Republic of Georgia (former SSR)…

The only “political activism” in Goergia is related to solving the armed conflict there, in the dialogue between two sister Churches.

The MP has also, in the past, expressed a corporate desire to be the focal point of modern orthodoxy; so far as to have hierarchs state that the measure of Orthodoxy is in communion with Moscow.

I am not aware of any such a statement by any MP hierarch. Quite the contrary, one of the reasons for rejection of infamous Ravenna Document was exactly the complaint against (I think) paragraph 42, stating that the measure of Orthodoxy was communion with Phanar. MP emphasized the Orthodox stance that a communion with any particular bishop was never, and will never be, a criterion of Orthodoxy.

Further, both the current and previous MP have been chided by members of the orthodox world for their authoritarian approach to leading the ROC.

When? By whom? How?

 

[Hesychios]

**

Actually, the “branch” of the MP in the USA is the Vicariate of the Patriarchal Parishes, though I admit it’s anomolous and inconsistent by now.**

Absolutely correct.

When the OCA was granted autocephaly a provision was made for up to (I think) 50 parishes which could remain directly under the MP if they so chose. I don’t know that there were ever a full fifty, without looking into it I think there may be between 35 and 45 parishes at present.

If I remember correctly the cathedral is in New York city.

I agree that this vestigial body is somewhat anomalous, most especially after the reconciliation of ROCOR.

 

[Nine_Two]

\
Orthodox Christians trace their roots to the earliest days of Christianity but do not answer to papal authority in Rome. Bartholomew is, in effect, their pope.\

**This is not true. There is simply no equivalent for the Pope in Orthodoxy, though the last few Ecumenical Patriarchs have shown quasi-papal ambitions.
**

Gotta love it when the media doesn’t do their research.

Having recently gotten back from Turkey, it is a very sad situation there. Sadly I almost think the EP should follow in the footsteps of The Patriarch of Antioch and just move to Athens (and reintegrate the two churchs).

The only other potential option that exists is if Orthodox countries issue an ultimatum to Turkey and threaten war if the Church isn’t given full freedom, but somehow I can’t see that happening.

 

[Hesychios]

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the leader of the 300 million-member Orthodox Christian Church, feels “crucified” living in Turkey under a government he says would like to see his nearly 2,000-year-old Patriarchate die out.

I think the best possibility for the future would be for the EP to physically relocate to Mt. Athos.

However, it would be practically impossible to get out “with the goods”. Antiquities would by law have to remain in Turkey (and likely find their way into museum storehouses), that means virtually everything including relics, chalices, oil lamps, Gospel books, antique vestments, manuscripts, icons … everything.

The entire contents of the Halki seminary would be forfeit, and the physical plant of every remaining piece of property at Phanar. The losses would be staggering.

On the other hand, the work of Christ would be able to continue.

 

[Nine_Two]

Absolutely correct.

When the OCA was granted autocephaly a provision was made for up to (I think) 50 parishes which could remain directly under the MP if they so chose. I don’t know that there were ever a full fifty, without looking into it I think there may be between 35 and 45 parishes at present.

If I remember correctly the cathedral is in New York city.

I agree that this vestigial body is somewhat anomalous, most especially after the reconciliation of ROCOR.

There were 43 + the entire diocese of Edmonton in 1970. No idea how many have switched now, as an option was made that any parish could switch to the OCA at any time.

edit: A link to the Tomos: oca.org/DOCtomos.asp?SID=12

 

[bpbasilphx]

I might mention that my father is buried in the local MP Vicariate churchyard.

 

[prodromos]

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the leader of the 300 million-member Orthodox Christian Church

Most common error regatding the EP. The Orthodox Church has no leader but Christ, who is represented by the bishop in every individual parish.

John

 

[Kiechlin]

Gotta love it when the media doesn’t do their research.

Especially when it’s the venerable 60 Minutes
Seriously, it seems this thread has gotten off track. It’s despicable what Turkey has/is doing. Whether Catholic or Orthodox, it doesn’t matter-we’re all the Body of Christ-we need to continue to pray earnestly for their situation to improve!
God Bless

 

[marymol]

May the voice of our Bl.Mother that filled St.Elisabeth with the Holy Spirit , be heard in many , many more hearts , to discern truths and to be rid of fears and hatreds , to recieve the Fatherly love and protection , in all areas, through intercession of the Beloved disciple St.John , who related best to our Lord in such manner !

May these lands and its histories and those involved , be consecrated to the Divine Mercy , through prayers of H.H John Paul 11 of Bl.Memory !

 

[judechild]

With all due respect, your grace, several of the Muscovite Patriarchs have shown papal-equivalence ambitions. Including the refusal to grant auocephaly to the UOC-MP, and interference within the UOC-MP, plus how ROCOR was treated.

Heck, it’s even been commented by 2 in a row that the US should be exclusively OCA, since the OCA is the branch of the MP, and the MP founded Orthodoxy in the US. Further, their Japanese, Chinese, and Mongolian issues, plus the political activism in the Republic of Georgia (former SSR)…

The MP has also, in the past, expressed a corporate desire to be the focal point of modern orthodoxy; so far as to have hierarchs state that the measure of Orthodoxy is in communion with Moscow.

Further, both the current and previous MP have been chided by members of the orthodox world for their authoritarian approach to leading the ROC.

I’m very sorry, I don’t mean to break up the flow of the conversation but… posts like these might as well be written in Sanskrit for me. Would someone please take pity on me and tell me what all these acronyms mean (other than SSR, I know that one).

 

[josephdaniel29]

I’m very sorry, I don’t mean to break up the flow of the conversation but… posts like these might as well be written in Sanskrit for me. Would someone please take pity on me and tell me what all these acronyms mean (other than SSR, I know that one).

UOC-MP = Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate)

ROCOR = Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russian (also known as the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad)

OCA = Orthodox Church in America

MP = Moscow Patriarchate

ROC = Russian Orthodox Church

 

[Marie5890]

Just watched this on 60 Minuets. My sincerest of prayers for our brothers and sisters in Christ who are being persecuted for His Holy Name in Turkey and other places.

It made me sick to see how the state has over taken religious liberty and freedom in so rich a country.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\ May the voice of our Bl.Mother that filled St.Elisabeth with the Holy Spirit ,\

No, the Holy Spirit filled St. Elizabeth with the Holy Spirit.