Patriarch Bartholomew Feels "Crucified"

[josie_L]

Yes He did. Jesus gave each of the Apostles the “key” and the power to “bind and loose”. Not only does Scripture confirm this, but the early Church Fathers do as well.

But let’s not get this thread off topic. You may create a new thread to address any questions you have on that issue, if you’d like.

You keep reiterating the same mistakes over and over again despite the obvious scriptural references that only Peter received the keys just like the chancellor/prime minister (St. Peter was also given the power to loose and bind in the capacity of the prime minister, i.e., what he shuts no one can open and what he opens no can shut) did in the kingdom of Israel. Read Isaiah 22:22 for references. Furthermore, the early church fathers do not say that all the apostles possess the keys, a few however have stated that the Church possesses the keys, but, and let me emphasize this again,** “through St. Peter”** (and his successors). Therefore, the keys are manifested to the Church through him and those who hold his office.

 

[josie_L]

The successor of St. Peter could bring unity between the two Churchs.

Exactly, as sacerdotal unity was centered in Rome through the successors of St. Peter. I think that St. Cyprian said it quite well:

Cyprian of Carthage

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, **yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . **If someone [today] does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).

“Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men, at a time when no one had been made [bishop] before him—when the place of [Pope] Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church” (Letters 55:[52]):8 [A.D. 253]).

“With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source” (ibid., 59:14).

 

[josie_L]

There’s been no poke at all. The the fact is the keys were given to each of the Apostles, the early Church Fathers wrote about it and as Michael quoted the Catholic Church still recognizes it with the exception of parts of the Roman Rite. Now if you think that the early Church Fathers and Catholic Patriarchs are taking a poke at the Catholic Church, I don’t know what to tell you.

He quoted his beatitude Grégoire III Patriarch of Antioch and All the East, of Alexandria and Jerusalem for the Melkite Greek Catholics, therefore do not equate a statement made by a patriach as somehow being the official stance of the Catholic Church.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

He quoted his beatitude Grégoire III Patriarch of Antioch and All the East, of Alexandria and Jerusalem for the Melkite Greek Catholics, therefore do not equate a statement made by a patriach as somehow being the official stance of the Catholic Church.

He’s a Patriarch of the Catholic Church! As such he represents the view of his Church which is in Union with the Pope of Rome!

 

[SingleMomMonica]

You keep reiterating the same mistakes over and over again despite the obvious scriptural references that only Peter received the keys just like the chancellor/prime minister (St. Peter was also given the power to loose and bind in the capacity of the prime minister, i.e., what he shuts no one can open and what he opens no can shut) did in the kingdom of Israel. Read Isaiah 22:22 for references. Furthermore, the early church fathers do not say that all the apostles possess the keys, a few however have stated that the Church possesses the keys, but, and let me emphasize this again,** “through St. Peter”** (and his successors). Therefore, the keys are manifested to the Church through him and those who hold his office.

First, there is not a single early Church Father that quotes Isaiah 22:22 as having Any thing to do with St. Peter, the Apostle.

What did the early Church Fathers have to say about the Church’s understanding of Matt. 16:19?

Augustine, Sermon 295, 2-8
If Christ speaks only to one, it is to emphazise unity. Indeed, so that you may know that it is the Church who received the keys to the kingdom of heaven, listen to what the Lord has said elsewhere to all of the apostles: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ and later ‘Anyone who’s sins you have forgiven, they are forgiven; anyone who’s sins you retain, they are retained.’

The Church did not equate Isaiah 22:22 with Matt. 16:19, but the Church did equate Matt. 16:19 with John 20:22&23.

Tertullian, Scorpiace 10, PL 2, 142
Remember that the Lord left the keys to Peter, and through him to the Church, keys which each one carries with him if, when asked, he confesses the faith

&

Origen
If we say ourselves ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God’ then we too becomePeter, for whoever is united to Christ becomes Peter.

So we see that the Church also recognized that each Christian is the holder of the keys.

 

[John_Larocque]

The chair of Peter is the unity of the episcopate, the complete or catholic Church of Ignatius is the local diocese under the bishop, who is to be obeyed as if he were the Lord himself. We’ve been around this block before and nobody is going to change their minds, but it’s always pleasant to see the same patristic text-dumps shoved into threads, as if the sheer weight of the quotations will make a difference.

As it is, in a thread dedicated to the persecuted Christian church in Turkey, led by the good patriarch, I thought maybe such polemics would be absent from this thread, and that maybe instead a prayer could be offered for both him and the church there, but I guess not. Congratulations.

 

[Harpazo]

The chair of Peter is the unity of the episcopate, the complete or catholic Church of Ignatius is the local diocese under the bishop, who is to be obeyed as if he were the Lord himself. We’ve been around this block before and nobody is going to change their minds, but it’s always pleasant to see the same patristic text-dumps shoved into threads, as if the sheer weight of the quotations will make a difference.

As it is, in a thread dedicated to the persecuted Christian church in Turkey, led by the good patriarch, I thought maybe such polemics would be absent from this thread, and that maybe instead a prayer could be offered for both him and the church there, but I guess not. Congratulations.

I thought so, too. I reported it to a mod to get some of that weeded out. Let’s hope they do so.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I thought so, too. I reported it to a mod to get some of that weeded out. Let’s hope they do so.

In Christ,
Andrew

Public apology from me for taking their bait. I should not have responded to their off topic discussion even after I asked them to begin a new thread if they wanted to address their 'off topic ’ topic. I vow to not let it happen again, may God help me.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Public apology from me for taking their bait. I should not have responded to their off topic discussion even after I asked them to begin a new thread if they wanted to address their 'off topic ’ topic. I vow to not let it happen again, may God help me.

By the way… this was the very first “off topic” comment made… no other negative things were said prior to this point…

"*the Pope “claims” more authority, even supremacy and infallibility. These “claims” are false as proved by the history and Councils of the Christian Church.

The other errors too combined to give me an iritation headache, but what can I do?"/*I]

and these words were said by none other than… SingleMomMonica!!!.. The same one who claims to have not wanted anything to do with the off topic comments.

Give me a break, are you kidding me??? Can we atleast be honest about who laid the bait

SD

 

[josie_L]

First, there is not a single early Church Father that quotes Isaiah 22:22 as having Any thing to do with St. Peter, the Apostle.

Why would they need to quote Isaiah 22 when the keys were given to St. Peter (in the greek text, the word “you” is used in the singular form) by Jesus, the Son of David and the King of Israel? The keys (as per scripture) denoted a singular authority (albeit flowing from Jesus/God) as was the case with St. Peter

What did the early Church Fathers have to say about the Church’s understanding of Matt. 16:19?

Augustine, Sermon 295, 2-8

If Christ speaks only to one, it is to emphazise unity. Indeed, so that you may know that it is the Church who received the keys to the kingdom of heaven, listen to what the Lord has said elsewhere to all of the apostles: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ and later ‘Anyone who’s sins you have forgiven, they are forgiven; anyone who’s sins you retain, they are retained.’

How does this in anyway contradict what I said about the keys being manifested to the Church “through Peter”? In fact your quote from Tertullian exemplifies exactly what I mean:

Tertullian, Scorpiace 10, PL 2, 142
Remember that the Lord left the keys to Peter, and through him to the Church, keys which each one carries with him if, when asked, he confesses the faith

Here is another example of how the keys were given to St. Peter but manifested through the Church:

For the good of unity Blessed Peter deserved to be preferred before the rest, and alone received the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, that he might communicate them to the rest." Optatus of Mileve,The Schism of Donatists,7:3 (c.A.D. 367),in GCC,50

In other words, no church can possess the keys or manifest its powers without the bishops of Rome, the successors to St. Peter.

Origen
If we say ourselves ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God’ then we too becomePeter, for whoever is united to Christ becomes Peter.

So we see that the Church also recognized that each Christian is the holder of the keys.

This rendition of the keys is incorrect and not supported by the Church fathers:

"Who could be ignorant of the fact that the holy church is consolidated in the solidity of the prince of the Apostles, whose firmness of character extended to his name so that he should be called Peter after the ‘rock’, when the voice of the Truth says, ‘I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven’. To him again is said “When after a little while thou hast come back to me, it is for thee to be the support of thy brethren.”
Gregory the Great Pope,Epistle 40(A.D. 604),in SPP,66

“**lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom…”
Hilary de Poiters,On the Trinity,6:20(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:105

“Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter(Kepha), because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me…I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, have given you authority over all my treasures.”
Ephraim, Homily 4:1,(A.D. 373),JUR,I:11**

 

[josie_L]

By the way… this was the very first “off topic” comment made… no other negative things were said prior to this point…

"*the Pope “claims” more authority, even supremacy and infallibility. These “claims” are false as proved by the history and Councils of the Christian Church.

The other errors too combined to give me an iritation headache, but what can I do?"/*I]

and these words were said by none other than… SingleMomMonica!!!.. The same one who claims to have not wanted anything to do with the off topic comments.

Give me a break, are you kidding me??? Can we atleast be honest about who laid the bait

SD

Thank you SD Catholic for pointing out the obvious which others in their haste to condemn could not see.

 

[josie_L]

The chair of Peter is the unity of the episcopate, the complete or catholic Church of Ignatius is the local diocese under the bishop, who is to be obeyed as if he were the Lord himself. We’ve been around this block before and nobody is going to change their minds, but it’s always pleasant to see the same patristic text-dumps shoved into threads, as if the sheer weight of the quotations will make a difference.

As it is, in a thread dedicated to the persecuted Christian church in Turkey, led by the good patriarch, I thought maybe such polemics would be absent from this thread, and that maybe instead a prayer could be offered for both him and the church there, but I guess not. Congratulations.

And God bless you too!!

 

[brigantine]

And it still continues!

 

[5Loaves]

And it still continues!

Amen.

 

[5Loaves]

As it is, in a thread dedicated to the persecuted Christian church in Turkey, led by the good patriarch, I thought maybe such polemics would be absent from this thread, and that maybe instead a prayer could be offered for both him and the church there, but I guess not. Congratulations.

His message was clear and powerful and should be our focus. He’s a brave man. Kuddos to CBS for giving this prime time coverage. There were naturally errors as there always are in these reports but the basic message was very effectively and successfully covered. I thought all in all it was excellent coverage.

The patriarchate website includes links to a CBS Photo Essay and to Bob Simon’s Notebook 2 1/2 mins: “Bob Simon shares about his trip to Turkey and interview with one of Christianity’s top leaders, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew.”
Bob Simon’s Notebook-- well done!

These are well worth looking at as well. It sounds like Bob Simon was really unfamiliar with the Patriarch and the situation of the church in Turkey and was really overtaken by this experience. Praise the Lord!

View also the three short Extras: “Pilgrimage”, “Cappadocia” and “The Footsteps of Christ” from the menu on the right.

 

[marymol]

\ May the voice of our Bl.Mother that filled St.Elisabeth with the Holy Spirit ,\

No, the Holy Spirit filled St. Elizabeth with the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for the clarification , for complying with the inspiration from The Holy Spirit !

If I may bring up something else that pertains to this thread indirectly , and it is about the icon
of ’ Holy Wisdom ’ - with a female personification ! forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=407992

and a Great church , to same !

Did note the sited biblical passage too - from Cor. - ’ HE , is the power and wisdom of God ’ about Christ … He , who came to reveal to us The Father …

answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_wisdom_created.htm

Found above , that talks about the 'she ’ as personification of wisdom in Old Testament, as created wisdom … and thus not to be equated with our Lord …

Now, this being Christmas time, not intending to focus on painful issues …yet, since issues surrounding the history of such , esp. about the destruction of the Great church, seems to still linger … and this from concern that some of the real reasons for the problems may have been missed … from too much focus on ’ the other’ …after all, King Solomon was the best recipient of the ’ Old Wisdom’ and the Great church in Constantinople supposedly built to outshine Solomon’s temple …seems history could point to worsening of divisions , in The Church , around the same time too, from more ambition for power, may be to now match the glory of the Great church …

As much as this is a joyful time, yet , its share of the human situations and pains too , in many lives …and hope that some of it could be offered up, for return of our Jewish brethren too ; may be they could bring some real light into the true reasons , that would be easier to accept …after all, have there been many people with such a long history of destruction of their holy temples …and may be that would also bring enough wisdom , to put behind what need to be …to proceed in His Wisdom and Love …

Peace !

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Thank you for the clarification , for complying with the inspiration from The Holy Spirit !

If I may bring up something else that pertains to this thread indirectly , and it is about the icon
of ’ Holy Wisdom ’ - with a female personification ! forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=407992

and a Great church , to same !

Did note the sited biblical passage too - from Cor. - ’ HE , is the power and wisdom of God ’ about Christ … He , who came to reveal to us The Father …

answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_wisdom_created.htm

Found above , that talks about the 'she ’ as personification of wisdom in Old Testament, as created wisdom … and thus not to be equated with our Lord …

Now, this being Christmas time, not intending to focus on painful issues …yet, since issues surrounding the history of such , esp. about the destruction of the Great church, seems to still linger … and this from concern that some of the real reasons for the problems may have been missed … from too much focus on ’ the other’ …after all, King Solomon was the best recipient of the ’ Old Wisdom’ and the Great church in Constantinople supposedly built to outshine Solomon’s temple …seems history could point to worsening of divisions , in The Church , around the same time too, from more ambition for power, may be to now match the glory of the Great church …

As much as this is a joyful time, yet , its share of the human situations and pains too , in many lives …and hope that some of it could be offered up, for return of our Jewish brethren too ; may be they could bring some real light into the true reasons , that would be easier to accept …after all, have there been many people with such a long history of destruction of their holy temples …and may be that would also bring enough wisdom , to put behind what need to be …to proceed in His Wisdom and Love …

Peace !

I don’t know about the particular Icon you are reffering to, but Agia Sophia means Holy Wisdom - the Agia is the feminine form of the Greek word for Holy. In the Old Testament book of the Wisdom of Solomon wisdom is constantly referred to as a woman.

 

[marymol]

I don’t know about the particular Icon you are reffering to, but Agia Sophia means Holy Wisdom - the Agia is the feminine form of the Greek word for Holy. In the Old Testament book of the Wisdom of Solomon wisdom is constantly referred to as a woman.

Thank you for the effort and good will .

The post , as it is, is pretty explanatory , for now …and may be the intent is more to help to ponder …in this Season , when we celebrate The Father’s Love for us …New Year… …and wise kings from The East …with the yearning in all our hearts, for The Father’s Spirit , to take hold of ever more realms …and for the peace to come with it !

Peace !