Patriarchs and catholicoi ranking scale

[Nestor_kea]

In another thread I told something like:

Catholicos is lower than patriarch and if I am not mistaken, catholicoi in Seleucia-Ktesiphon, Armenia, Georgia and Caucasian Albania were formally allowed by patriarchs because it was needed for effective functioning of (local) churches.

I was corrected:

A Catholicos is a Patriarch of a church which was outside the Roman empire. He is no lower than any other Patriarch.

This made me unsure and so I have written (hear a little bit changed):

Thanks for correcting. I thought that in Seleucia or Armenia it was nearly impossible for patriarch to lead the church () and that is why there was (is) office of catholicos but still of a little less in honor.
(): One of reasons that they were outside the borders of the Empire.

But now I have two questions:

• When church in Mesopotamia declared independence why their catholicoi adopted also title patriarch if they are equal? I have heart reasoning that because the head of an independent church should be patriarch, not catholicos. (Georgian Orthodox too.)
• Syriac (Oriental) Orthodox Church has its catholicos in India who is under the patriarch and is head of a “far jurisdiction”. This seems to me to be inconsistent with the equivalency.

Thanks for explanation.

I am afraid that this my “need of explanation” was unnoticed and in that thread it was a liitle bit off-topic. So, please, corect / explain how it is with this two offices.

And one more point:
In Armenian Church the head of their church was and is catholicos and when they needed new “top hierarchs” they established patriarchs under catholicos but I think we do not have to care about this, just:

• Armenian catholicos ~ patriarch,
• Armenian patriach ~ catholicos.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Catholicoi were under the Patriarch of Antioch. The title was used for regional heads of the Syriac tradition.

Due to various reasons, some Catholicoi became estranged from a direct connection to Antioch and became defacto Patriarchs.

Both Armenia and Georgia, as well as India were/are connected historically to the Syriac Tradition.

 

[Nestor_kea]

Thank you for answer.

Now I can’t remember any other catholicoi, only the Antiochian connected (Armenia - later multiplied, Georgia, India., Seleucia-Ctesiphon or Babylon, ceased Caucasian Albania). Is this title / office unique for this patriarchate or are there more?

 

[Nestor_kea]

What is the connection between catholicos and mafrian?

It seems to me that mafrians are only in Syriac churches (not all the sees of Antioch, just Syriac one) and this title means “number two”. Now SOC has mafrian = Catholicos of India but I think there were mafrianless periods. SCC usually does not use but after death of the second catholic patriarch Mor Ignatius Peter VI Chaahbadine there was elected Mor Baselios Isaac ibn Joubeir, archbishop of Ninive who decided to be highest Syriac catholic prelate as mafrian, not catholicos. If my historical knowledge is bad, please correct me.

So I think that if there is just one catholicos, he si automatically mafrian. If there were more, then what? And probably it is possible to have mafrian also when there is no catholicos but in such a situation is it not just a honorific office (something like ceremonial Latin patriarchs)? and how is he chosen?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Originally, the Maphrian was like the Cardinal-Dean of the College of Cardinals, he consecrates/installs the Patriarch and the Patriarch installs him. Eventually, in the Syriac Church, the same person became Maphrian and Catholicos due to various reasons.

 

[amalthomas]

Eventually, in the Syriac Church, the same person became Maphrian and Catholicos due to various reasons.

What do you mean by this. Give an example.

 

[Aramis]

It’s worth noting that the Syro-Malankar Major Archbishop is referred to by the title “Catholicos”…

 

[Nestor_kea]

It’s worth noting that the Syro-Malankar Major Archbishop is referred to by the title “Catholicos”…

Yes, I think that “major archbishop” are just less nice words for “catholicos”. Maybe Rome invented this because word “catholicos” sounds too much catholic something like “whole catholic hierarch”. Originally it was something like univewrsal (catholic) ruler so…

Eventually, in the Syriac Church, the same person became Maphrian and Catholicos due to various reasons.

Could you add more, please?

 

[SyroMalankara]

What do you mean by this. Give an example.

I mean that the Catholicos and Maphrian were two separate offices which due to various circumstances became joined on one person, in the Syriac Church. When the office was [instituted, moved, created, designated - depends on who’s version] in India, an additional title “Malankara Metropolitan” also fell upon the same individual. This was also a separate office.

 

[Katuliqa_Nasrai]

Catholicoi were under the Patriarch of Antioch. The title was used for regional heads of the Syriac tradition.

Due to various reasons, some Catholicoi became estranged from a direct connection to Antioch and became defacto Patriarchs.

Both Armenia and Georgia, as well as India were/are connected historically to the Syriac Tradition.

Dear Syro Malankara
Which catholicoi were under patriarch of Antioch?. Catholicoi is plural of catholicos. Babylonian patriarch is also using same title, ‘The Catholicos Of The East’.! one patriarch under another one…?. The babylnian church or persian church or The church of the east or Chaldean church was a ‘authorized’ patriarchal church since second council.