Patriotic Songs at Mass

[FrDavid96]

It might be a good thing for people to do some research on the Edict of Constantine, AD 313.

Most people think of this as the moment when the Roman Empire made Christianity the official religion of the empire. That’s not the case. Prior to 313 Christians were persecuted by the Romans because they were seen as “atheists.” Christians refused to pray to the Roman gods for the good of the empire, and so it was believed that the gods would withhold their favors from Rome. Rome had no real objection to the Christians’ worship–the objection was to the absence of worship to the gods of the state.

The Edict of Constantine accomplished 3 things:

1. Made Christianity a recognized religion within the Roman Empire.
2. Restored property that had been confiscated from the Christians
3. Called-upon Christians to pray for the good of the Empire, just as pagans were required to pray for the Empire.

Why go into all of this? It makes the point that for 1700 years now, it has been an important part of the Christian Tradition to pray for the well-being of one’s country.

We should be praying for our country. We should be asking God’s blessings upon our nation, our leaders, our military, and all in public service. But at the same time, we need to make a distinction between praying for our country and merely having a patriotic moment within the Mass. The first is laudable, the second is inappropriate.

 

[PacoG]

Wouldn’t “Immaculate Mary” be a patriotic hymn? At least in the Catholic sense? Note the last verse…

We pray for the Church, our true mother on earth,
And we ask you to watch o’er the land of our birth.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!

The Immaculate Conception is our national patroness. Wouldn’t this be a nice compromise?

 

[Lynn_Diane]

I once witnessed a battle between my pastor and a parishioner who was a veteran. The pastor kept putting the American flag in the back of the church, and the veteran kept taking it back up to the front of the church. He told the pastor that it was because of American soldiers fighting and dying for our rights as Americans that priests were able to celebrate Mass freely in this country. Then I heard of countries where it was impossible for Mass to be celebrated in the churches because all the priests were in hiding, deported, jailed or executed.

As Catholics, we should pray for our country at Mass. Some patriotic songs are prayers, or at least some verses are prayers. For the “Battle Hymn of the Republic,” check out the verse that begins, “In the beauty of the lilies, Christ was born across the sea …” My personal favorite is the Navy Hymn, which also goes by its first line, “Eternal Father, strong to save.” This moving hymn has verses to pray to God for the safety of those, not only at sea, but on land and in the air. The Ignatius Hymnal includes our national hymn, “God of our fathers.” I agree that patriotic songs which are not prayers are best sung as a recessional.

 

[pnewton]

This Memorial Day I was visiting this topic in my head and I had two thoughts. The first is that we are called to be the light of this world. We live in a community and have a responsibility to those who live with us in community, local, national and world-wide. Of course Mass involves more than just us and Christ. Even when we sing Immaculate Mary, it is not worship, but a connection within the family. Another example is* For All the Saints*. These songs are not of worship to God, but an acknowledgement of the community of Saints. On the Feast of Corpus Christi, we also acknowledge the tie we have to the whole body of Christ. Songs that invoke God’s blessings are nothing but a further widening of our view of community until we reach the greatest circle in songs like Dona Nobis Pacem, Grant us Peace, and All Creatures of Our God and King. I will avoid the notorious sixties song, Let There Be Peace on Earth.

The second was that there is a difference between nationalism and patriotism. I disagree that patriotism is idolatry, as mentioned earlier. Just as our familial love is rooted in the love of God, so our love ouf our country is rooted in love of God. Like all things, national pride can become and idol, but it is not inherent in patriotism.

To distiguish between nationalism and patriotism, idolatry and community, I will give my own practical definition. It is just my opinion, but I think it works nicely. Borrowing from Kant, we should only desire for our country that good and that behavior that we would consider to be universally good. Or to use the Golden Rule version, we should only desire that our nation interact with others as we wish others to interact with us. When we start thinking that our country is so unique as to be above question and that our advancement is of a greater good that the advancement of other countries in a similar situation, then we cross into idolarty and nationalism.

 

[Jan_Bolbot]

Songs that ask for God’s blessing on one’s country are rather different from songs that celebrate aggressive nationalism. I wouldn’t lump God Bless America in the same category as Deutschland uber Alles.

This tradition extends to a number of other Catholic countries. In those cases, national holidays may be associated with patronal feast days. For example, in Poland Constitution Day (May 3) is also celebrated as the feast of Our Lady Queen of Poland. There are a number of songs that are both patriotic and religious that are sung at Masses, such as “God who Watcheth over Poland.”

JB

 

[mrearly2]

You’re in the wrong church, if anything but liturgical music is played or sung.

 

[the_7th_one]

Man you open a can of worms when you start singing Patriotic Songs at Mass. I could understand some Pastors jsut saying, “no lets not go there”, just to avoid the headachs.
While some like “God Bless America” can be justified as hyms, others like the “Star Spangle Banner” can not. Above all Music is suppose to run in line with the celebration of the Mass.
So Memorial Day Week-end was the Solemenity of the Ascension; so what Patriotic Song can you name that fits? You may be able tom get by if the Celebrent asks you for a song to go along with his sermon, but their’s are also to fit scripture.

 

[pnewton]

You may be able tom get by if the Celebrent asks you for a song to go along with his sermon, but their’s are also to fit scripture.

I did not have a anything patriotic prepared last week, but my priest asked us to sing America The Beautiful as an exit. There is no controvery for us and everyone sang louder than ever. I was definitely at the right Church.

BTW - We sang the first and the fourth verse which did tie into the homily and the Feast.

 

[the_7th_one]

I did not have a anything patriotic prepared last week, but my priest asked us to sing America The Beautiful as an exit. There is no controvery for us and everyone sang louder than ever. I was definitely at the right Church.

BTW - We sang the first and the fourth verse which did tie into the homily and the Feast.

Cool, but not all Parishes are open to something that is (to be honest) on the boarder as far as being correct. Most Pastor will not risk it when so many other issues are pressing.

Not saying it is incorrect, but close enough to be a judgment call

 

[PacoG]

The irony and the inappropriateness of America the Beautiful at a Catholic Mass lies in its second verse:

Oh beautiful, for pilgrims feet across the wilderness.

Pilgrims feet refers to the puritans who settled New England. It isn’t appropriate to celebrate PROTESTANTS at a Catholic Mass. These heretics and schismatics (aka PROTESTANTS aka puritans aka pilgrims) persecuted Catholics in both the Old World and the New World. We shouldn’t honor them at our Masses.

These same PROTESTANTS (aka puritans aka pilgrims) protested the so called “Intolerable Acts” which legalized Catholicism in Canada.

We have to remember that this country has a long history of anti-Catholicism which is reflected in its culture.

 

[pnewton]

The irony and the inappropriateness of America the Beautiful at a Catholic Mass lies in its second verse:
Oh beautiful, for pilgrims feet across the wilderness.
Pilgrims feet refers to the puritans who settled New England.

If that was the only definition, you would have a point. However, since the word is lowercase, that is not its meaning

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pilgrim

1**:** one who journeys in foreign lands

I would think the primary, lowercase and contextually sound meaning would be the first one would choose, unless they were looking for an issue where none exists. The Pilgrims (capital P) are not the ones who beat a path across the wilderness. They landed and stayed in the same area.

 

[PacoG]

And remembering, as Mark Twain said, that Jesus was not crucified on an altar between two candlesticks, but on a hill between two thieves.

I waited a couple of days before I responded to this because if I would have responded immediately, I would have responded out of anger.

That quote is inappropriate and expresses the anti-Catholic bigotry and the misinformation spread by the Calvinist churches that that Mark Twain was raised in. It was a perpetuation of the misinformation spread by Calvinist Protestant that Catholics re-slaughter Christ every Sunday at Mass.

Futhermore, the quote is antithetical to Catholic theology because it minimizes what happens on the “altar between two candlesticks.” During the Consecration, when the priest acting in personna Christi says “this is my body” and “this is my blood,” we represent the action at Calvary. It is an act that trascends time and space as we are one with Calvary…we are there at the foot of the cross with our Lord “on a hill with two thieves.”

What happens on “an altar between two candlesticks” is infinitely more meritorious and important than anything we humans can accomplishment. What happens on “an altar between two candlesticks” at any Mass affects our salvation and the redemption of the whole world.

Are you even Catholic? If so, have you been properly catechized about what happens on “an altar between two candlesticks” at Mass?

 

[Sarabande]

If that was the only definition, you would have a point. However, since the word is lowercase, that is not its meaning

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pilgrim

I would think the primary, lowercase and contextually sound meaning would be the first one would choose, unless they were looking for an issue where none exists. The Pilgrims (capital P) are not the ones who beat a path across the wilderness. They landed and stayed in the same area.

I think you are probably right about this, especially when you read the history behind how “America the Beautiful” was written. The pilgrims that was referred to were any American who either came from Europe (or Asia) or any American living in the US who explored and settled on “virgin” land. Americans represented individualism and independence - people who marched to the beat of a different drummer and were able to make a better life for themselves than what they would have been afforded in their old country, and live how they wanted to live. At the time the poem was written Americans were also associated as people who blazed across the wilderness to make it their own.

That all said, many forget that the East Coast, especially during early Colonial times, was just as wild and untamed as the West was later in America’s history. Those Puritans (the Pilgrims) and other pilgrims of the time literally did beat a path across the wilderness at that time. They endured hardship as well as imparted hardship on the natives of the land just as it happened later in our history further west. We also have to remember early on in our history areas like what is now known as Maine, NH, western PA, etc. and any of the other western parts of the 13 colonies, were considered very thick and dangerous wilderness. Remember what happened to Anne Hutchinson and her family in New Amsterdam (New York). Where they were was pretty much dangerous and untamed wilderness and that was on the east side of NY.

Although the English colonies in America was notably a very anti-Catholic area (with the slight exception of Pennsylvania), there were Catholic and Jewish pilgrims who came to the Americas for a new life. Many Jewish colonists settled in Pennsylvania because of religious tolerance there, and everyone knows that Maryland in the early 1630s started out as a colony for Catholics after the 1st Lord Baltimore was stripped of his title after announcing his Catholicism. (Maryland was also the first colony that passed the “Maryland Toleration Act” which outlined tolerances of Christian religions. Pennsylvania did it second when it became a colony in the 1680s, and it was known that Puritans also hated the Quakers as much as the Catholics and Anglicans because of their tolerance of faith among other things. There was even instances where they captured and hung Quakers who came to their colonies in New England.) Although, it wasn’t too long when the Protestant neighbors, namely Puritans, settled in Maryland and was able to gain enough power to outlaw Catholicism and Anglicanism in Maryland. And although the 2nd Lord Baltimore tried to squash the Puritan revolt, they were defeated.

Anyway, I think the interpretation of “pilgrims’ feet” could be taken either way, depending on how you look at it - or even both ways since it could encompass all pilgrims (including Puritans) from the beginnings of our country.

 

[FrDavid96]

…
And remembering, as Mark Twain said, that Jesus was not crucified on an altar between two candlesticks, but on a hill between two thieves.

I’m curious about the source of this quote, as well as the context. As I recall, Samuel Clemens became a Catholic but I don’t know if Mark Twain ever converted.

 

[shuzo1189]

I’m curious about the source of this quote, as well as the context. As I recall, Samuel Clemens became a Catholic but I don’t know if Mark Twain ever converted.

adherents.com/people/pt/Mark_Twain.html

I should note that on this past Memorial Day my Parish had a Requiem Mass in the Dominican Rite to Maurice Durufle’s Requiem. It was amazingly lovely and the Pastor reminded us during the homily why we were there. It made the in paradisum really hit home for me.

Also i found this video interesting:youtube.com/watch?v=ngLx-hHK1nM

Its Tantum Ergo done to Hayden’s [Ostereich Kayserhymne, or as most Westerner’s would think of it Deutcheland Deutcheland Uber Alles Just found it rather bizzare to see Tantum Ergo done in this setting (Also saw it on EWTN a couple of weeks ago)*

 

[Sarabande]

Also i found this video interesting:youtube.com/watch?v=ngLx-hHK1nM

Its Tantum Ergo done to Hayden’s [Ostereich Kayserhymne, or as most Westerner’s would think of it Deutcheland Deutcheland Uber Alles* Just found it rather bizzare to see Tantum Ergo done in this setting (Also saw it on EWTN a couple of weeks ago)

Beautiful. You know, it’s funny. When I first heard the Haydn, it was in his second movement of his Kaiserquartett. My husband, whom I was dating at the time, had a cd of Haydn’s string quartets and I loved the melody then. I didn’t know at the time that was later used for Germany’s national anthem long after Haydn was dead and gone.

 

[shuzo1189]

Beautiful. You know, it’s funny. When I first heard the Haydn, it was in his second movement of his Kaiserquartett. My husband, whom I was dating at the time, had a cd of Haydn’s string quartets and I loved the melody then. I didn’t know at the time that was later used for Germany’s national anthem long after Haydn was dead and gone.

It throws me for a loop thats for sure, I keep on wanting to say, “Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser…” instead of Tantum Ergo Sacramentum.

My Parish always uses this setting (youtube.com/watch?v=BBhhqHeNraY) for Benediction so I have a hard time making the connection

 

[VAC]

Well, I guess I’m a slacker. It’s been years since I’ve put a patriotic song into mass, and then because I was told too. It was “God Bless America” and the singing raised the roof. I’ve only heard the congregation sing ‘Immaculate Mary’ , Christmas carols, and the mass parts louder.

Last Sunday was Acension Sunday, so I used those readings as my guide.

I also slacked at putting in any Mary songs for the month of May or on mother’s day.
Didn’t hear any comments from the peanut gallery or the higher ups.

 

[Poor_Clare_tobe]

I’m against them being made remotely a part of any liturgical service whatsoever. Patriotic sings are nice, but they were not written for the liturgy, and by that alone they’re unacceptable for use in chruch.

And really, they’re secular songs that have nothing to do with why we’re in the nave in the first place, and I would be shocked if anyone found them to be spiritually helpful in the least.

*Actually a great number of our patriotic songs were written for church use… perhaps in Protestant churches but church use nonetheless.

To sing songs like God Bless America
Battle Hymn of the Republic
America My Country Tis of Thee]
America the Beautiful

Have been a part of Protestant Services for centuries.
(I am a convert since 1975)

Personally when songs like that are sung… I swell up with pride thinking of our great country and am sure during my thanksgiving after mass to thank God for blessing us so richly and for giving us so many freedoms religious and otherwise.

I can understand some peoples relutance… and of course thats what makes our Church so wonderful is there is room for us all and services for us all…[but in todays world with so many attacks on our relgious freedoms? I find it nice to ask God to bless our country,and especially here in California where our religious rights are slowly being trampled upon… I find it nice to hear them especially on days when we are honoring those who have served our countries… and to celebrate our religious freedom. (and to ask Gods blessing and mercy on our country)
Blessings all!

[Yes I do prefer it to be as a recessional]
*

 

[Jan_Bolbot]

The Pilgrims certainly held anti-Catholic views, but there is no evidence that the people who came on the Mayflower ever persecuted Catholics. Most founding fathers did, but wholesale rejection of them hardly seems fair, charitable, or appropriate. JS Bach was a Lutheran and probably held similiar views. We wouldn’t exclude Bach from church would we?

The Holy Father is quite interested in this topic and I don’t see that he has forbidden patriotic music whose content is in keeping with the sacred nature of the liturgy and the teachings of the Church.

ceciliaschola.org/notes/benedictonmusic.html

JB