patriotism in Church

[catsrus]

originally posted by** FrDavid96** on 5/20/09
I think you’ve hit on the essential distinction. A patriotic song which celebrates the nation is not appropriate at Mass (even as a recessional)

This is how I see it also and coming from a person who self identifys as a priest makes it that much more correct.

As to the person who quoted IPeter 2:13,14, I see nowhere in the text any directive to “be patriotic”, only to submit to the civil authorities, which I think we all do.

I will not be returning to this particular church for Mass and will go back to the one that is 15 miles away. And though I may have had difficulty identifing as a Catholic in certain foriegn countries before 1989, it would not have made me any less of a Catholic.

Catholicism is what I chose. Being born in America was not of my choosing so I don’t feel the need to celebrate it. especially at Mass! It was an accident of birth. Had I been born in Timbuktu, it would still be an accident of birth.

If that offends certain people, I wish they would TRY to listen to what I am saying and perhaps, just agree to disagree. Flags, patriotic songs, etc. do not belong in the Catholic (universal, not American) church. I am in church to hear Mass and worship my Creator. I can sing “America the Beautiful” while I’m eating hot dogs and watching fire works.

Oil and water.

 

[OraLabora]

It always makes me uncomfortable when we mix religion and nationalism/patriotisim/any other “ism”.

The church is the house of God. We are there to worship Him and enter into communion with Him. Him alone.

 

[Lutheranteach]

IN looking toward the altar at the church I grew up in there was a church lag on the left and an American flag on the right.

 

[jtodisco]

Nationalism has no place in the mass. God is not an American, nor is he a Frenchman, nor is he a German, etc. It doesn’t help that people seem to be as reverent towards the American flag as they are towards a crucifix. Heck, some people I know act more reverently when handling a flag then when they are receiving the Lord in the Eucharist! With these things in mind it bothers me quite a bit to see something in any church that seems to rival God in many people’s minds. It can lead to idolatry, pure and simple.

As for the Founding Father’s being good Christians and all the arguments going along with that. They were (for the most part) deists. Which is a heresy. Just read the infamous “Jefferson Bible” in which all of Christ’s miracles, references to His divinity, and His resurrection were removed because Thomas Jefferson felt they were just superstition! If some modern author were to publish such a “version” of the Bible they would be branded as an atheistic revisionist who is making a personal attack on Christ. But since it’s Thomas Jefferson it’s ok, we forget about it, and we look up to him as some sort of angelic figure along with the rest of our nation’s founders.

Keep the State out of my Church please.

(Oh, and for those who might want to instantly label me as being anti-American, I’m not. I come from a proud military family. My only brother, who sadly died in 2008, followed in that tradition having served as an M.P. in the Army.)

 

[CatholicZ09]

My parish sang “God of Our Fathers” a.k.a. the National Hymn, and “Let There Be Peace on Earth” today. I don’t have any real problems with these hymns because they do mention God’s part in our freedom, especially “God of Our Fathers”.

“America the Beautiful”, “Eternal Father, Strong to Save”, and “This is My Song” all mention God’s role in our freedom.

 

[Newbie2]

Not the first time I’ve heard this and am interested why anyone believes that the “founding fathers” (deists), had “God on their side”, the section of earth we call America, the declaration of independence or any of that, only 234 years old, has anything to do with The Holy Catholic Church.
Even if I did not live in this country, I would still be Catholic. If I lived in Bulgaria, Georgia (the country), Rwanda, anywhere else on Earth, I would STILL be Catholic minus the declaration, flag or any of the nationality accruments I see and hear in my church.
Does anyone out there understand what I am talking about?

I get what you’re saying, but isn’t being proud of our country, i.e. sort of honoring America just another way of thanking the Almighty for this great country he’s given us to live in? That’s how I look at it.

I have really mixed feelings about singing “America the Beautiful” as a ressional at Mass. First of all its not a piece of Sacred music; secondly this is Mass, not a patriotic celebration.
I hope all of you understand that I am as Patriotic as anyone. My wife and I are fromer Marines and my oldest daughter is a former Marine. My second oldest son is a career Marine. In fact he was at Mass with us today in his dress blues. He has served three combat tours in Iraq and is getting ready for a forth tour in “the other desert”.
But I have never liked songs like “America the Beautiful”, “Amazing Grace”, or “How Great Thou Art” as songs for Mass.

Mass is over before the recessional. “The mass is ended, let us go in peach to love and serve the Lord”, then the recessional, no?

Still inappropriate five minutes after receiving the Eucharist. I think it’s St. Louis de Montfort (but I could be wrong- maybe John Vianney?) who tells the story of a man leaving mass right after receiving communion. Seing his lack of respect for the Eucharist, he calls the altar boys to follow him around with candles and sing. The man came back to the church and asked why the altar boys were following him, and the priest replied that Jesus must be adored after receiving communion- since the man had left without showing the proper respect, the priest showed it for him. The man immediately fell to his knees and spent time in thanksgiving.

America the Beautiful, while licit in a recessional, hardly seems a fitting way to offer thanks for the Eucharist,

I beg to differ. I see it as a way to give thanks to God for our wonderful country.

 

[PatriceA]

This is how I see it also and coming from a person who self identifys as a priest makes it that much more correct.

As to the person who quoted IPeter 2:13,14, I see nowhere in the text any directive to “be patriotic”, only to submit to the civil authorities, which I think we all do.

I will not be returning to this particular church for Mass and will go back to the one that is 15 miles away. And though I may have had difficulty identifing as a Catholic in certain foriegn countries before 1989, it would not have made me any less of a Catholic.

Catholicism is what I chose. Being born in America was not of my choosing so I don’t feel the need to celebrate it. especially at Mass! It was an accident of birth. Had I been born in Timbuktu, it would still be an accident of birth.

If that offends certain people, I wish they would TRY to listen to what I am saying and perhaps, just agree to disagree. Flags, patriotic songs, etc. do not belong in the Catholic (universal, not American) church. I am in church to hear Mass and worship my Creator. I can sing “America the Beautiful” while I’m eating hot dogs and watching fire works.

Oil and water.

Well I think I for one have tried to listen to what you are saying, and agree to disagree because I have not reached the same line of thought you have.

But technically, you could decide not to have the benefits of being an American citizen and become an expatriate. Just saying since you brought it up that you can choose to be Catholic, there is a choice as far as your citizenship is also concerned.

 

[twopekinguys]

Several have mentioned that at the recessional, the Mass is already over. * I agree*

It has been mentioned that since we have just received communion, we should still be showing reverence. I agree.

I believe it has been mentioned that *America the Beautiful *is a secular song. I disagree

Does anyone realize that God is mentioned in every stanza/verse to this song?

Here is a link to check out the lyrics.

scoutsongs.com/lyrics/americathebeautiful.html

 

[twopekinguys]

Flags, patriotic songs, etc. do not belong in the Catholic (universal, not American) church. I am in church to hear Mass and worship my Creator. .

So does that mean the flag of the Holy See/Vatican should be removed also? After all, it is the Vatican City/State, and is a country in and of itself. They issue their own passports, have official borders, etc.

Personally, I am glad to see the American Flag in the Church. If it wasn’t there, then chances are, the church wouldn’t be there, and neither would the flag of the Holy See.

 

[smithm29]

I see it as a way to give thanks to God for our wonderful country.

I don’t know how to equate the thanksgiving for the Eucharist - the true Body and Blood of God almighty - with patriotism.

 

[paperwight]

So does that mean the flag of the Holy See/Vatican should be removed also? After all, it is the Vatican City/State, and is a country in and of itself. They issue their own passports, have official borders, etc. QUOTE.

It’s interesting that the Papal flag is displayed in American churches. I haven’t come across it anywhere else in the world where I’ve travelled, but admittedly, I haven’t been everywhere.
It certainly isn’t the custom in Catholic churches in the UK. although the Church of England frequently has the Union Flag hanging somewhere, as a tribute to a local Regiment, for example.
How did having the Papal flag in American churches start, does anyone know?

 

[Newbie2]

I don’t know how to equate the thanksgiving for the Eucharist - the true Body and Blood of God almighty - with patriotism.

Well, don’t forget the the Eucharist isn’t the only thing in the mass. It’s the most important, but not the only thing.

Would you have issues with a homily that touched on patriotism?

 

[smithm29]

Not if it was related to the readings and didn’t idealize things. A homily should also be a call to action- any homily on patriotism would really have to take into account the massive level of work the faithful have to do to make their country pleasing to God. Abortion, homelessness, economic justice, clean water- those (and countless other) issues really stop us from being able to honestly declare that the American republic pleases God and is worthy of praise moments after receiving the Eucharist. I love my country and don’t think I’d rather live anywhere else- but I don’t want to ignore the elephant in the room. True patriotism must be approached with Christian principles, and an idealistic song after communion just doesn’t meet that test.

I think it (the song) would be more appropriately reserved for fellowship after mass.

 

[momor]

I have really mixed feelings about singing “America the Beautiful” as a ressional at Mass. First of all its not a piece of Sacred music; secondly this is Mass, not a patriotic celebration.
I hope all of you understand that I am as Patriotic as anyone. My wife and I are fromer Marines and my oldest daughter is a former Marine. My second oldest son is a career Marine. In fact he was at Mass with us today in his dress blues. He has served three combat tours in Iraq and is getting ready for a forth tour in “the other desert”.
But I have never liked songs like “America the Beautiful”, “Amazing Grace”, or “How Great Thou Art” as songs for Mass.

I thank all of you for your service to our country. May God protect your son on his next tour of duty.

 

[OraLabora]

Yes the Mass is over before the recessional. But keep in mind that the church and especially the sanctuary and tabernacle, is a sacred space.

In any church that I’ve been to, that is given over to profane use (say for a concert), the Blessed Sacrament is removed to a safe place to avoid desecration and disrespect for it.

Even when the church is not being used, it remains a sacred space where one is to feel the transcendence and presence of God, and should not be used for profane purposes. The place for activities unrelated to the Mass, it seem to me, is outside the church itself, either in the parish hall or the grounds outside (say for a 4th of July picnic).

Oddly I find this a peculiarly American phenomenon. In Canada, the only mention I hear of politics is in the prayer of the faithful, where often there’s an intention to pray that our leaders behave in a Christian way. In Quebec in particular, celebrating Canada Day or the Fête Nationale (secularized version of St John the Baptist day, patron saint of French Canadians), is far too divisive to have any place in the Mass.

 

[puzzleannie]

our pastor has displayed the flag in church and had us sing the more “hymn-like” patriotic songs as processional and recessionals since 9-11 on federal holidays. I have no problem at all. As a Catholic attending Mass in another country I would have no problem in their doing the same as long as the hymns or display did not contradict church teaching in any way. I do have a problem with a patriotic song used as a communion hymn, and it usually is not done here, but sometimes the cantors make their own choices. Since I don’t volunteer for that duty it is not my place to complain.

 

[smswife]

At our Mass we sang “Let there be Peace on Earth” and at the recessional, “America the Beautiful”.

During the Homily, our pastor read the prayer from George Washington’s inauguration which was given by a Catholic bishop.

I don’t think any of these things were inappropriate. In fact I would find it surprising if the July 4th Holiday were not mentioned in any way. The Homily is to teach us how to apply the scriptures to our lives. July 4th is a MAJOR holiday that, at least in my town, involves almost everyone. We have a big parade and multiple fireworks displays. Our pastor had a duty to help us apply our Faith to those celebrations. (And, by the way, our parade is always the AM of July 4th but not when it’s on a Sunday. So this year it was on July 3rd. Not entirely secular thinking.)

On a day that the nation has set aside to honor freedom, why shouldn’t we rejoice and thank God during Mass for our freedoms and the great gift of this nation?

“America the Beautiful” doesn’t just mention God in every stanza, it is a prayer for blessings on our nation. Why isn’t that appropriate during or after Mass?

To the OP, of course God and Church come before patriotism. That doesn’t mean that patriotism is wrong! All loves are wrong (including love of children, spouse or neighbor) if put before the love of God. We still are called to love our families, our neighbors and our nation.

 

[graceandglory]

America the Beautiful, while licit in a recessional, hardly seems a fitting way to offer thanks for the Eucharist,

Which parts aren’t fitting as a recessional? It’s not worship, it is an impassioned plea to God. Why not beg God to protect and heal our land after receiving Him in the Eucharist?

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern impassioned stress
A thoroughfare of freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

O beautiful for heroes proved
In liberating strife.
Who more than self their country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!
O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

 

[CoffeeHound]

Yes the Mass is over before the recessional. But keep in mind that the church and especially the sanctuary and tabernacle, is a sacred space.

In any church that I’ve been to, that is given over to profane use (say for a concert), the Blessed Sacrament is removed to a safe place to avoid desecration and disrespect for it.

Is singing God Bless America really profane use?

 

[smithm29]

Compare America with traditional indulgenced prayers after communion and see if the focus is the same:

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me.
Within Thy wounds hide me.
Suffer me not to be separated from Thee.
From the malignant enemy, defend me.
In the hour of my death, call me.
And bid me come to Thee.
That with Thy saints I may praise Thee.

Pierce, O my sweet Lord Jesus, my inmost soul with the most joyous and healthful wound of your love, with true serene and most holy apostolic charity, that my soul may ever languish and melt with love and longing for you, that it may yearn for you and faint for your courts, and long to be dissolved and to be with you. Grant that my soul may hunger after you, the bread of angels, the refreshment of holy souls, our daily and supernatural bread, having all sweetness and savor and every delight of taste; let my heart hunger after and feed upon you, upon whom the angels desire to look, and may my inmost soul be filled with the sweetness of your savor; may it ever thirst after you, the fountain of life, the fountain of wisdom and knowledge, the fountain of eternal light, the torrent of pleasure, the richness of the house of God; may it ever compass you, seek you, find you, run to you, attain you, meditate upon you, speak of you and do all things to the praise and glory of your name, with humility and discretion, with love and delight, with ease and affection, and with perseverance unto the end; may you alone be ever my hope, my entire assistance, my riches, my delight, my pleasure, my joy, my rest and tranquility, my peace, my sweetness, my fragrance, my sweet savor, my food, my refreshment, my refuge, my help, my wisdom, my portion, my possession and my treasure, in whom may my mind and my heart be fixed and firm and rooted immovably, henceforth and forever. Amen.

Look down upon me, good and gentle Jesus, while before Thy face I humbly kneel, and with burning soul pray and beseech Thee to fix deep in my heart lively sentiments of faith, hope and charity; true contrition for my sins, and a firm purpose of amendment; and while I contemplate with great love and tender pity Thy five wounds, ponder over them within me, and calling to mind the words which David, Thy Prophet, said of Thee, my Jesus: "They have pierced my hands and feet; they have numbered all my bones.

I thank Thee with all my heart, O loving Jesus, for having come to me and allowed me to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and to offer it in union with Thee by receiving Thy Sacred Body and Most Precious Blood. Grant that I may not forget these graces; let me remember during this day that I have stood beneath Thy cross, witness the renewal of Thy sacrifice and partaken of Thy heavenly banquet. May I spend this day for Thee alone, my Jesus, and perform all my work in union with Thee according to Thy words: “He who abides in me, and I in him, he bears much fruit.”

Thou art with me only a few moments, but Thou wilt have me live with Thee so intensely during this time, that the character of my life during the rest of the day may be as Thine.

Thou wilt remain in the very center of my soul, not in Thy bodily presence, but united to my spirit to be the source and fountain of all I do. Let me be so united to Thee that I may think nothing desire nothing, save what Thou wouldst have me think and desire.

In Thy mercy forgive me, O Jesus, and let me not return to the sins I have been committing; help me to guard against my habitual sin and to overcome my ruling passion. Thy Precious Blood paid the price of my sins, and gave me the means of all the virtue Thou dost wish me to practice in my life.

Thy Precious Blood is the very life of my soul. Grant that I may use the power of Thy Precious Blood to bring the living virtues of Thy Heart into mine; let nothing less satisfy me.

Make me constant in faith, hope and charity; make my spirit humble and obedient, that I may show forth in my life Whose disciple I am; make me patient in adversity that I may bear my cross with resignation to Thy holy will.

Grant that I may always cherish and practice the virtue of holy purity in thought, desire, word and deed. In the restraint of words let me atone for improper speech in the p ast. In my restraint of criticism and uncharitableness give me some of the kindness of Thy Precious Blood, shed for sinners - shed for me.

Grant that I may rid myself more and more of self-seeking, and love and serve my neighbor for Thy sake.

Give me courage, O Lord, for in spite of all Thy help I am a coward in Thy work; give me the courage of Thy Precious Blood and the persistence of Thy own Divine Heart; let me not fall short of all Thy love for me.

O Jesus, let me frequently and attentively consider that whatever I gain, if I lose Thee, all is lost. What I lose, if I gain Thee, all is gained.

Let me always remember that Thou art present, observing and hearing me, and will take an account of all my thoughts, desires, words and deeds, and will judge me according to them.

O most loving Jesus, let nothing ever separate me from Thee; let me be Thine in life and in death; let me be Thine forever. Amen.

My Lord God, even now resignedly and willingly, I accept at Thy hand, with all its anxieties, pains and sufferings what kind of death it shall please Thee to be mine.