Paul a sexist?

[vcaraveo]

I have not been able to find any source that directly addresses the verse of 1 timothy 2:12.

“I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent” (RSV)

I have been able to find sources that uphold the dignity of women such as Pope John Paul II’s Letter to Women but it doesn’t mention this verse. I told a friend I would get back to him on this subject but I can’t find an answer. Thanks.

Victor

 

[deb1]

I have not been able to find any source that directly addresses the verse of 1 timothy 2:12.

“I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent” (RSV)

I have been able to find sources that uphold the dignity of women such as Pope John Paul II’s Letter to Women but it doesn’t mention this verse. I told a friend I would get back to him on this subject but I can’t find an answer. Thanks.

Victor

In the books of Corinthians Paul is addressing the Greek society. The Greeks were much more strict with females then Roman society. If you were a married female, your husband could and probably did make you stay in your home most of your life. You wouldn’t have much opportunity to mingle with others.

When Christians began to come together to worship. Women were encouraged to join in the meeting. This was something that many of the respectable married woman were not used to. This women did not know how to act, so it is natural that Paul would tell them to please keep silent during the meeting.

If anything the verse on silence is proof that Christians were not sexiest because Paul was saying that it was all right for females to be in the meetings.

IN other parts of the New Testament, the same Paul, talks about women prophesizing. So, he must have been all right with women speaking.

I imagine that the similar reasoning is happening in Timothy as in Corinthians.

 

[Crumpy]

No, I don’t believe so, that Paul is a sexist.

He was speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in the first place.

My approach to this is non-academic. I look at it from the positive point of view. Paul went on to say that women should be silent, but then talk to their husbands at home.

Now, that’s good isn’t it? First, that a husband and wife would talk about the scriptures and homily at home. Second, implying no disadvantage to women, their asking their husbands questions is a way of ensuring that the HUSBANDS understood the scriptures and the homily. You want to make sure that your husband “got it.”

There’s something we don’t understand here, about why the men would be speaking in the assembly, anyway. Neither men nor women speak in the modern Mass assembly, as a rule, anyway.

We ought to keep our eyes on the ball, that scripture is inspired and that we should prayerfully seek its message. You know? Try it and see what happens.

 

[Noobasaurus_Rex]

In the books of Corinthians Paul is addressing the Greek society. The Greeks were much more strict with females then Roman society. If you were a married female, your husband could and probably did make you stay in your home most of your life. You wouldn’t have much opportunity to mingle with others.

When Christians began to come together to worship. Women were encouraged to join in the meeting. This was something that many of the respectable married woman were not used to. This women did not know how to act, so it is natural that Paul would tell them to please keep silent during the meeting.

If anything the verse on silence is proof that Christians were not sexiest because Paul was saying that it was all right for females to be in the meetings.

IN other parts of the New Testament, the same Paul, talks about women prophesizing. So, he must have been all right with women speaking.

I imagine that the similar reasoning is happening in Timothy as in Corinthians.

I beg to differ, hehe

 

[SpiritMeadow]

In the books of Corinthians Paul is addressing the Greek society. The Greeks were much more strict with females then Roman society. If you were a married female, your husband could and probably did make you stay in your home most of your life. You wouldn’t have much opportunity to mingle with others.

When Christians began to come together to worship. Women were encouraged to join in the meeting. This was something that many of the respectable married woman were not used to. This women did not know how to act, so it is natural that Paul would tell them to please keep silent during the meeting.

If anything the verse on silence is proof that Christians were not sexiest because Paul was saying that it was all right for females to be in the meetings.

IN other parts of the New Testament, the same Paul, talks about women prophesizing. So, he must have been all right with women speaking.

I imagine that the similar reasoning is happening in Timothy as in Corinthians.

I tend to agree. We should never forget that paul’s letters are quite a bit different than a gospel. They were never meant as scripture, but were attempts on his part to keep church’s he could not personally be at on the same page. There is every reason to believe that the gentiles in some hellenized areas had grown up with hellenized ways, and one of those ways was that women were not part of the greater society of education, politics, etc.

I view most of these difficult passages from Paul as just that, not meant to reflect what he believed Jesus taught so much as practical solutions to a specfic problem: namely the loss of new converts who couldn’t handle these social differences.

In all things we are guided first of all by what Jesus said. And surely no one would argue that Jesus took such a sexist position regarding women, rather he embraced and upheld them in ways not normal in his time.

 

[Digitonomy]

IN other parts of the New Testament, the same Paul, talks about women prophesizing. So, he must have been all right with women speaking.

It may not have been the same Paul. There is some question as to whether Paul is truly the author of Timothy.

Now if the question were how do we interpret this verse consistent with Church teaching and other verses in the Bible, the authorship issue is just a distraction. However, if we are interested in how Paul himself felt about this matter, then whether he was the author is crucial.

 

[mdgspencer]

Since Scripture is the word of God I find the heading improper, opening the possibility as it does that something in the Bible is sexist. Perhaps his words refer to a situation we don’t know about that existed in a particular local Church? All in all, I consider that either we don’t understand what is being said in this passage or our attitudes about the matter are wrong, if what he said acts against our grain. We should not judge Scripture, but if anything be judged and taught by it. Otherwise, what sort of a faith do we have?

 

[christcnection1]

A little off topic…

But one could make the case that Jesus Himself was a sexist because He only chose men as His 12 apostles. Of course I don’t believe that, but I don’t think it would be unreasonable to view it that way through a modern lens.

No, I don’t think Paul was a sexist. Through a modern interpretation, perhaps one could make that case. However, in God’s eyes he was not. Neither was our dear Lord - He was sinless.

 

[whatevergirl]

I have not been able to find any source that directly addresses the verse of 1 timothy 2:12.

“I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent” (RSV)

I have been able to find sources that uphold the dignity of women such as Pope John Paul II’s Letter to Women but it doesn’t mention this verse. I told a friend I would get back to him on this subject but I can’t find an answer. Thanks.

Victor

I have also read that Paul really felt Christ was coming any day, (during his life) and he warned men to keep their women quiet, and if women wanted to know more, to ask their husbands–because he truly felt he wouldn’t have enough time to keep reexplaining things. Interesting, but it helps me to not view him as a sexist. I don’t think he was a sexist…but he might have had a tough time in our day and age.

 

[Digitonomy]

Another question to ask is what do we mean by sexist?

I would argue that of course the Church is sexist, as it treats people differently on the basis of sex. Paul likewise. The issue is not so much whether the passage in Timothy is sexist, but whether the obvious sexism is good, bad, or neutral.

 

[scottm]

I have not been able to find any source that directly addresses the verse of 1 timothy 2:12.

“I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent” (RSV)

I have been able to find sources that uphold the dignity of women such as Pope John Paul II’s Letter to Women but it doesn’t mention this verse. I told a friend I would get back to him on this subject but I can’t find an answer. Thanks.

Victor

The group “Christians For Biblical Equality” have TONS of materials on this specific verse and related verses. And they’re very inexpensive, too.
cbeinternational.org/new/about/about_cbe.shtml

 

[SpiritMeadow]

It may not have been the same Paul. There is some question as to whether Paul is truly the author of Timothy.Good point.
christcnection1;2908221:

A little off topic…

But one could make the case that Jesus Himself was a sexist because He only chose men as His 12 apostles. Of course I don’t believe that, but I don’t think it would be unreasonable to view it that way through a modern lens.

**you will start world war 3 in here if you say that. I wonder more if perhaps the Gospel writers just never envisioned the possibility that Jesus thought of some of his women followers as apostles. **

No, I don’t think Paul was a sexist. Through a modern interpretation, perhaps one could make that case. However, in God’s eyes he was not. Neither was our dear Lord - He was sinless.

**I tend to agree. **

Another question to ask is what do we mean by sexist?

I would argue that of course the Church is sexist, as it treats people differently on the basis of sex. Paul likewise. The issue is not so much whether the passage in Timothy is sexist, but whether the obvious sexism is good, bad, or neutral.

Yup I would also agree. I don’t see the Church early on as sexist, so much as doing as had always been done. Nobody had any real models of women as preacher, and only as high priestess in some of the pagan cults, but these were often wrapped in sexual garb. So it doesn’t seem it would appear naturally to them. As time went on, tradition began to dictate the preference for men over women in positions of power within the church. Heck we didnt’ even have any women “doctors of the Church” until 1970-80’s when they were all “inducted”. I think that rather telling in and of itself.

 

[scylla]

Everyone is sexist to a degree, and we must be or else there is no value in the particular sexes.

I must hold that a woman has her own place and dignity and is a woman different from a man.

I must hold that a man has his own place and dignity and is a man different from a woman.

To try and change that or fight against that, is to insult God’s creation and the difference He created between a man and a woman.

Just because a woman wants to be like a man doesn’ make it right, just because a man would like to be like a woman doesn’t make it right. Our desires do not determine what is correct, humility is what it takes to conform to do what is right, which is rare these days.
Would you like to see a real woman… look at Blessed Mother Teresa. Would you like to see a real man, look at Blessed Damien of Molokai.

We shouldn’t seek to put our modern interpretation of what the Bible means but should seek the truth of what it meant when it was written, as truth doesn’t change.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Everyone is sexist to a degree, and we must be or else there is no value in the particular sexes.

I must hold that a woman has her own place and dignity and is a woman different from a man.

I must hold that a man has his own place and dignity and is a man different from a woman.

To try and change that or fight against that, is to insult God’s creation and the difference He created between a man and a woman.

Just because a woman wants to be like a man doesn’ make it right, just because a man would like to be like a woman doesn’t make it right. Our desires do not determine what is correct, humility is what it takes to conform to do what is right, which is rare these days.
Would you like to see a real woman… look at Blessed Mother Teresa. Would you like to see a real man, look at Blessed Damien of Molokai.

We shouldn’t seek to put our modern interpretation of what the Bible means but should seek the truth of what it meant when it was written, as truth doesn’t change.

God Bless
Scylla

I sure don’t think anyone is talking about any man becoming a woman or any woman becoming a man. We are discussing what Paul (if indeed as someone mentioned it is Paul) said about women, and if so, how we think it was meant. It is in definite disagreement with his statement that we were all the same before God, neither gentile nor jew, man nor woman, slave nor freeman. etc.

 

[whatevergirl]

Everyone is sexist to a degree, and we must be or else there is no value in the particular sexes.

I must hold that a woman has her own place and dignity and is a woman different from a man.

I must hold that a man has his own place and dignity and is a man different from a woman.

To try and change that or fight against that, is to insult God’s creation and the difference He created between a man and a woman.

Just because a woman wants to be like a man doesn’ make it right, just because a man would like to be like a woman doesn’t make it right. Our desires do not determine what is correct, humility is what it takes to conform to do what is right, which is rare these days.
Would you like to see a real woman… look at Blessed Mother Teresa. Would you like to see a real man, look at Blessed Damien of Molokai.

We shouldn’t seek to put our modern interpretation of what the Bible means but should seek the truth of what it meant when it was written, as truth doesn’t change.

God Bless
Scylla

I don’t think Jesus was a sexist. He always spoke to women throughout the Biblical accounts, and He didn’t talk down to women, which I sometimes get that sense Paul did…so, sometimes I wonder if what we read in the Bible is somewhat Paul’s thinking, more than Divine thinking.

 

[christcnection1]

you will start world war 3 in here if you say that. I wonder more if perhaps the Gospel writers just never envisioned the possibility that Jesus thought of some of his women followers as apostles.

Perhaps the Church was always wrong. If it’s not the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15), I am not sure what the make of the Church, personally.

Obviously I am not saying that Jesus was sexist. Furthermore, I do not believe the early Church, Sacred Tradition, and “man’s” case against female ordination is sexist.

I wish female ordination was God’s will, but I don’t believe it is. Through a modern interpretation of gender equality, it doesn’t surprise me that people think this way. However, if the Church has always been wrong on this matter (or for approximately 2,000 years), I don’t want a part such an institution.

It’s not a matter of sexism or female rights. It’s a matter of authority. And I don’t believe the Church has the authority to change this whether I like it or not. (…and I don’t like, but I still stay within Church guidlines. Furthermore, I support all the Church teaches.)

If others disagree, so be it. On some level I don’t blame them, and feel sympathetic. I just cannot undermine the very foundation I choose to embrace.

Perhaps God’s ways are higher than ours, and this is done for a very specific reason which will one day be revealed.

God Bless,

JB

 

[scylla]

I sure don’t think anyone is talking about any man becoming a woman or any woman becoming a man. We are discussing what Paul (if indeed as someone mentioned it is Paul) said about women, and if so, how we think it was meant. It is in definite disagreement with his statement that we were all the same before God, neither gentile nor jew, man nor woman, slave nor freeman. etc.

Not at all Paul wasn’t talking about authority when he was talking about everyone being the same. Look it up, this passage is so abused by those wacky people over at Call to Action and such.

Read Galations 3 in context, it is talking about salvation, it has been hijacked to contradict, but it doesn’t as it doesn’t talk about authority.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Cathryn]

St. Paul was teaching and presenting that we are all equal in human dignity, but men and women have different roles that correspond to the relationship of Jesus Christ to His body the Church. By today’s secular standards this is called sexist. I don’t see it as sexist however. It’s God’s creation and plan of salvation and is beautiful. The Blessed Mother is the epitome of womanhood and is the role model for all women. As a Catholic I find this uplifting and I’m honored to be treated with this respect, by my Church and also my husband. There would be a lot less battered, hurt, and angry women in the world if more men and women listened to St. Paul.

 

[vcaraveo]

I believe the dialogue that I was looking for was steered in a different direction than I originally intended for this post. I absolutely believe that Paul, or whomever may be the particular author of this particular passage was inspired and that he was treating the issue of men and woman in the assembly with equal dignity. However, the more specific question I was hoping to get answered was the context in which Paul was speaking. By todays standards it does appear to be sexist, however, I don’t know the social conditions that existed in the times and places that were being addressed and I want to know how the church interprets that part of scripture in light of that. But I also want to be able to give an explanation of social conditions to a person that is a fallen away catholic to help him understand it. I personally have no problem with the verse. I know that women and men have their respective places in society and in the church.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Not at all Paul wasn’t talking about authority when he was talking about everyone being the same. Look it up, this passage is so abused by those wacky people over at Call to Action and such.

Read Galations 3 in context, it is talking about salvation, it has been hijacked to contradict, but it doesn’t as it doesn’t talk about authority.

God Bless
Scylla

We all have our differing opinions. I have never been "over to Call to Action so I wouldn’t know what they expouse. However, I assume it would be just their opinion as well. Context seems to be the code word for “how this really doesn’t contradict what it appears to contradict”…You will find that abused by those wacky people over at any fundamentalist christian site.