Paul Corrupted/Created Christianity

[rinnie]

Simplynoone I think where you are getting confused on the law and Paul is here.

Ok In the beginning we had Adam and Eve. We agree. Now we had the law. The law was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The tree of LIFE was JESUS. Think about what I just Told you the TREE of LIFE is JESUS. We will come back to that.

Now Adam had permission to eat of Jesus but not to eat of the Law. He was living in Grace. after he sinned he eating of the law he was under the Law and had to serve it. God thrust him from the Garden of Grace into the world of the Law so he would not eat of Jesus and be eternally dammed. (remember that right?). Ok now…

Jesus came MADE of the WRITTEN WORD. Jesus was nailed to THE TREE. By being nailed to the TREE he paid for the sins of Adam and by dying on the cross saved Adam and his Children.

See thats where you are misunderstand Paul. 1tim 1-9 The law was not made for a righteous Man.

Now regarding circumcism Deut 10:16 30:6 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart and be no more stiffnecked. The OT and the NT has not changed. Jer 4:4 Rom2:29
Circumcise yoursleves to the LORD and take away the foreskins of your heart ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. lest my fury come forth like fire and burn that none can quench it because of the evil of your doings.

You must remember this God came to Paul. Paul knew the OT quite well. That is why he could explain scripture so well. He knew OT and he got from God the NT, and how to teach it.

There is the abolished OT levitical mosaic law of B.C. and the current in force Judiac-Messianic Law.

We are under the current law.

The current Law is Jesus Christ. Do you understand now. How by his death and ressurrection on the Cross he made everything new again.

See simplynoone Paul understood this, this is what he was trying to say. To teach us. Its alot of words, scripture, and really simple if you think about it. Hope that helped, just think about what I said, go back, and read the scripture. But remember what I said, pray for Gods Grace first, to help you along the way. Then read the srcipture real slow, and think about it all week.

ALso PLEASE anyone else. I promised simplynoone respect, and help to understand our scripture. Please be kind, and patient, and help her all you can. We are not here to change anyone just tell the truth that we were given.

Ralph, you are doing great buddy, Thank-you. Simplynoone hang in there.

 

[simplynoone]

by CHRISTINE77 View Post
Hear! Hear! I decided I am not going to read any more of these subversive threads trying to show that Jesus is not the Son of God. I think we should boycott these threads and not argue or reason with the anti-Catholic posters.

Now is the time to remember our dear Lord who suffered and died for us.

Amen

What is so ironic is that it seems some of you have failed to notice that it was one of your own who started this thread. At the least, he had enough decency to consider (else, why would one start such a thread). He asked, and I complied. Would you all rather me just dogmatically claim that Paul is wrong because God said so?

 

[simplynoone]

What I have now because of Jesus is the same thing you do, the perfect example for this life and life itself to achieve it if I keep trying.

I do not subscribe to the Kabbalah… so, in the case that you are trying to establish a connection with me, though it is GREATLY appreciated , you will not succeed by bringing Kabbalah into it. I do not waste my time on the mystical side of Judaism. I prefer the more practical elements… the things that I can actually draw strength and guidance from.

Now… if being sinless were not obtainable through faith in/on Jesus, then why were the following things said? And note… TRYING does not cut it according to the following!

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

(does not say consequences of sin… it says FROM their sins).

Matthew 5: 38
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Funny how Jesus doesn’t say, “Be ye … perfect, even as I am perfect”… ya know?!

Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Obviously being perfect is obtainable according to Jesus.

Luke 13:
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Huh… notice what I notice? Jesus says “And the third day, I SHALL BE perfected.”
What do ya know… .

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Not the consequences of sin… but taketh away the sins of the world… yet still sin still remains according to Christianity, correct?

John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

He did not say TRY and sin less… he told her, “sin NO MORE.”

John 8: 34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Even put into context, there is left no room to question what it is he meant. If you sin, you are still a servant to sin. Since Christians have claimed Jesus to be sinless and that they are his servants, they can not be sinning any longer… for Jesus himself said that a man cannot serve two masters.

And I John (what I am convinced to have been written by Paul for just such this confusion) says in chapter 3:
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(Continued in next post)

 

[simplynoone]

Smoking gun in my case:
John 5:14
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Uh-oh… if being sinless were impossible for everyone BUT him, then Jesus is just being cruel, no?

John 9:41
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

And this, above, is where Paul screwed the Gentiles over and he only has further screwed over the Gentiles by turning them to a man rather than to God.

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

And here Paul says that you best be sinless because after you have received the knowledge of the truth, if you sin willfully, there are no more sacrifices for your sins. UH-OH! Paul is condemning you now, Verisimilitude. If you admit that you are indeed still sinning and NOT sinless… you have run out of sacrifices to offer for your sins. The sacrifices that God set up have been taken away thanks to christianity and there are no more Jesus’ left to sacrifice to God. What now?

And yet again, Paul arrogantly flaunts the Gentiles ignorance in their faces as he reveals what it is he has done:

2 Thessalonians 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is true… and that day came for me when I saw Paul for what he really was… a jealous man who sought to destroy the perfect work of God that is His people; and he, Paul, attempted to do such at the expense of us, the Gentiles.

You know what I realized? I came to conclusion that I love God and His ways MUCH MORE than Paul’s cheap way. With the way of God, I am not condemned for experiencing and learning via those experiences. There is no need for human sacrificing in the ways of God.

Ezek 18:20-28
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

And the way to test and see if I am doing that which is lawful and right is by looking to the Law of God which IS perfect for converting the soul… simple, direct, and allows me to be me without guilt!

 

[simplynoone]

Now getting to Paul. You must remember Paul was a great leader of his Church. He was a part of a Elite Jewish group. He had alot of authority among the Jewish People, and was greatly respected. Paul hated the word of Jesus Christ and was determined to put a stop to the Church.

Then you must remember what happened (this is probally my favorite part of the bible). Paul why are you persecuting me. Now we both know that Paul thought he was doing the right thing, he was working for God, So he thought. But when we heard the word of God and said who are you? That is when God said it is I Jesus the one you are persecuting.

Now two important things here. Paul showed us if you persecute the Church you are persecuting Jesus they are one. Because Jesus did not say you are persecuting MY CHURCH he said ME. Second, here is Paul a Man with great faith and authority, he falls to his knees and says what do I do.

Now here is Paul a Man to stop the CHurch, turns around and defends it. Now he is not only hated by the Jews, the Gentliles sure don’t trust him either. Now you and I both know, that is not a position no one wants to be in. So we both know he did talk to God, and was led by God.

Now as far as scripture remember what I told you. Scripture cannot contradict scripture. Its impossible. It has to be US. We are the ones that are taking it out of context.

If we truely understand scripture it will add up. It has to. THe OT and the NT has to line up. SImply because it is the word of God.

But Paul’s teachings DO NOT line up with even the teachings of Jesus, let alone the Tanakh. I have shown this over and over.

Isa 45:18,21-23
For thus saith Jehovah who created the heavens, God himself who formed the earth and made it, he who established it, – not as waste did he create it: he formed it to be inhabited: – **I am Jehovah, and there is none else. **
…**and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. **
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for **I am God, and there is none else. **
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Christians:
Paul was a Jewish rabbi and he was clarifying for the people what Isaiah really meant.
Paul had the gift, given by God, to reveal the true Savior of the world, which is Jesus.

So, in other words, Paul was not lying by claiming Jesus was the topic of Isaiah 45? but rather, he was telling “new” truths? Jesus isn’t Jehovah, no matter how hard Paul tries to rewrite the scripture, regardless of his pedigree.

Christians:
You are do nothing but twisting scripture and taking it out of context in order to discredit the Bible, Jesus, and Paul. You pervert the scriptures and insult God.

How can I pervert what’s already perverted? Paul is uses the ignorance of Gentiles in an attempt to elevate Christian thinking and doctrine. Paul WAS INDEED a master of twisting scripture and taking it out of context. These perversions of the Hebrew scriptures are even called inspired and holy by Christian clerics, scholars, and apologists.
There is no noble quest for “truth” with Christians because it is all about spinning doctrinal propaganda and expanding the kingdom for their own gain.

Everyone expects me to believe Paul based on Paul’s own testimony, but remember the person reporting these so called “facts” about Jesus and his doctrine is Paul, the Jewish apostate that converted to Christianity. REMEMBER that Paul never met Jesus while Jesus was alive. Paul’s encounter with what he thought was Jesus occurred after Jesus was dead (or… for your sakes, after he had left earth). Paul had a personal vision or trance where a faceless shining light spoke to him. (Acts 9:3-5 & Acts 22:6-8)
It’s rather amazing how much credibility Christians are willing to give to a personal vision, because they quote Paul as a complete authority on Christianity and Jesus.
Paul is an “apostle” because Paul said so. He claimed to be commissioned by “God”.
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;

(and continued )

 

[simplynoone]

Paul stated that he learned HIS gospel not from the Word of God, but from a vision/revelation.
Gal 1:11-12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Funny really, Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, also had a personal revelation. However, most Christians on this board dismiss his revelation and label it as deception and false teaching. Many, as is evident in this thread, having deluded themselves into trusting Paul as an infallible authority, then take the doctrinal nonsense further by expecting all others to bow down and worship Paul as well.
Christians cite Paul’s writing in the New Testament as if it were the word of God when, as I have shown and no one has refuted, is contradictory to the Tanakh.
In other words, your eternal future rests heavily on the vision of someone else, as interpreted by others, and then sold to you as “facts” by the Church.

The shifty Paul had no problem giving lip service to the law and created false impressions about his beliefs. When questioned by the authorities about his teachings, Paul proclaimed that he believed all things that were written in the law and in the prophets.

Acts 24:13-14
Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
But this I(Paul) confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

If Paul was referring to the writings of the law and prophets that appear in the Hebrew scriptures, which Christians call the “Old Testament”, then Paul is lying. He’s practicing deceit and giving false testimony.

Paul did not believe what is written in the law or the prophets.
God gave the the new covenant in Jer 31:30-34.
In the new covenant, the law would be reaffirmed under a new contract, being directly infused into the hearts of God’s people. The prophet Ezekiel supports what was written in Jeremiah.
Ezek 11:19-20
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

But Paul rejected this and taught that the destructive law was replaced by a new system, a system not based on obedience to the law but upon faith in a human sacrifice.

2 Cor 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter(the written law), but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

According to Paul’s new doctrine, faith in a human sacrifice replaces obedience to the law(Rom 5:1, Gal 2:16).
Rom 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith(in Jesus), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

However, the prophets said nothing about faith in a human sacrifice replacing the law. Paul had redefined the new covenant to suit his personal agenda.

Paul declared that a human sacrifice did away with the law.
Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Yet Jesus said specifically that he came NOT to abolish the Law (nor to fulfill them for mankind) in Matthew 5:17-19 and warned against teachers who would teach otherwise. ahem Jesus stated that the law was fully binding until heaven and earth passed away and that anyone who taught otherwise was in doctrinal error.
Matt 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Paul, who claimed to have received his degree in proper doctrine directly from his trance encounter with “Jesus”, repeatedly contradicts what the Lord Jesus taught in Matthew 5:18-20. Apparently, Jesus failed to instruct Paul that the law was to be followed and not ignored. Despite claims by Christians that God inspired the New Testament, the evidence says otherwise.

Ironically, Paul was constantly warning about false teachers, when he was in fact a false teacher himself.
2 Cor 11:13-14
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The faceless light that Paul worshiped may not have been Jesus at all, but Satan. gasps
Yet, most of those on this board lap up Paul’s self-serving vision and his subsequent lies as if they were honey. The Hebrew scriptures even warn about false teachers that attempt to turn people away from the law.
Isa 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them

It is odd to me, while claiming that they want to be like Jesus and conform to the will of God, most instead prefer to worship Paul and his new doctrine.

 

[simplynoone]

ALso PLEASE anyone else. I promised simplynoone respect, and help to understand our scripture. Please be kind, and patient, and help her all you can. We are not here to change anyone just tell the truth that we were given.

Ralph, you are doing great buddy, Thank-you. Simplynoone hang in there.

I have no problem continuing this discussion… I just can not for the life of me figure out why the obvious contradictions are being ignored. You are right Rinne… anything that is of truth in the NT should line up with the Tanakh. The contradictions of Paul’s teachings with the Word of God are staggering. What is astounding is that most here are accepting Paul’s doctrine though they dismiss Joseph Smith’s doctrine; and yet both are based on their own testimonies and both contradict the Word of God.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I do not subscribe to the Kabbalah… so, in the case that you are trying to establish a connection with me, though it is GREATLY appreciated , you will not succeed by bringing Kabbalah into it. I do not waste my time on the mystical side of Judaism. I prefer the more practical elements… the things that I can actually draw strength and guidance from.

I was…and fair enough. I too prefer the practical elements of faith.

Now… if being sinless were not obtainable through faith in/on Jesus, then why were the following things said? And note… TRYING does not cut it according to the following!

Let’s look:

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

(does not say consequences of sin… it says FROM their sins).

This relates to our discussion don’t you think?
Genesis 4: 7 “If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

Matthew 5: 38
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Funny how Jesus doesn’t say, “Be ye … perfect, even as I am perfect”… ya know?!

This too relates:
John 8:46
Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?

Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Obviously being perfect is obtainable according to Jesus.

True, it is.
Matthew 19:11
Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.

Then there is the rest of us.

Matthew 18:14
In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

Luke 13:
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Huh… notice what I notice? Jesus says “And the third day, I SHALL BE perfected.”
What do ya know… .

I’ll get back to you on this one as I would like to study the translation but someone else might be more familiar with it. I will say though before I study that I see nothing wrong with it in the contect that Christ is the new Adam and Adam walked with God before the Fall and so have others like Enoch. Unlike Adam or Enoch however, they did not make such a sacrifice as Christ. That is what I know.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Not the consequences of sin… but taketh away the sins of the world… yet still sin still remains according to Christianity, correct?

Correct- we have returned to that place before the Fall by Christ.

John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

He did not say TRY and sin less… he told her, “sin NO MORE.”

I can do this too:
Genesis 2:17
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat…They did.
I could list each Commandment given to Moses to make the same effect…they did kill, adultery, steal…

John 8: 34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Even put into context, there is left no room to question what it is he meant. If you sin, you are still a servant to sin. Since Christians have claimed Jesus to be sinless and that they are his servants, they can not be sinning any longer… for Jesus himself said that a man cannot serve two masters.

As noted above, humans (even Jews) are not very good at being perfect when told to be so.

And I John (what I am convinced to have been written by Paul for just such this confusion) says in chapter 3:
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(Continued in next post)

The high bar for our (human) actions is perfection- always has been and always will be.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Paul stated that he learned HIS gospel not from the Word of God, but from a vision/revelation…

I will have to do this post later as my lunch hour is over but suffice it to say I think your overall misconception on some fundamentals make seemingly ‘reasonable contradictions’ not reasonable when understood differently- properly.

 

[rinnie]

I have no problem continuing this discussion… I just can not for the life of me figure out why the obvious contradictions are being ignored. You are right Rinne… anything that is of truth in the NT should line up with the Tanakh. The contradictions of Paul’s teachings with the Word of God are staggering. What is astounding is that most here are accepting Paul’s doctrine though they dismiss Joseph Smith’s doctrine; and yet both are based on their own testimonies and both contradict the Word of God.

That is a simple one. First of all Paul was a Apostle of Jesus Christ. Jesus gave all of the Apostles the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul talks on authority he has the Power of the Holy Spirt. Joseph Smith talked on his own Power. He has no authority.

You seem to be a little angry right now, maybe you need to take a time out and think about things. You are seeing scripture as you see it, not as God sees it. You do not have the Power of the Holy Spirit to teach scripture to yourself. That is why Jesus spoke in parables because you think like this world not like God. That is why we have the Church to define scripture, like I explained to you before.

Pauls teachings with the Word of God are not staggering. You just do not understand them. I really do not think that anyone here is capable in helping you understand scripture at this time. It seems that we cannot give you the answers that you are looking for.

We can only give you the truth as Paul gave us the truth that came from God. Paul and Peter and all of the Apostles preached from the word of God revealed to them from the Holy Spirit. God promised us that we could trust them. That he would not leave us orphans. That is how we know we can trust our leaders, because God promised us that.

OT does line up with NT. I don’t know why you can’t see it, or understand it. Just pray and ask God to help you to understand what he wants you to know. I don’t know what else to say. I have to go help someone right now do some work, but I will pray for you when I am working, and ask God to help you to see the true light of his Church. God Bless.

 

[simplynoone]

You seem to be a little angry right now, maybe you need to take a time out and think about things.

Oh no, Rinnie. Rather, I am astounded (def: filled with the emotional impact of overwhelming surprise or shock)… not at all angry.

Okay… let’s start with the most obvious contradiction and instead of everyone feeding me “you are are misunderstanding” followed by an interpretation of the Bible, show me THROUGH the Scriptures where it is supported that Paul is correct… not using Paul’s words though… using God’s Word.

Paul (well, assuming… it is the same doctrine he uses in his writings) says,

Hebrews 7:
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Yet God’s Word says:

Psa 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psa 119:152,160
Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

These are in direct conflict with one another. The explanations being given is like you seeing me wearing a black shirt and trying to convince me that it is white based on the fact that it is not blue. It makes no sense to me.

 

[simplynoone]

Oh… .and thought I would just make this clear. If the only reason that anyone is talking to me is doing so in hopes of converting me to Christianity, the fact is that if you are able to convince me that the NT is where the truth resides, I still could not be accepted into Christianity. I have already accepted the Christian faith once and after honest soul searching, I realized I could not say I believed something for which I had no evidences to believe… thus, I denied the faith after having once accepted it. If you are to convince me that this is the truth, then I must also accept that the following is truth.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

So… you are not going to be able to convert me back to christianity… just in case the agenda was one of winning a jewel on your crown (or whatever reward one gets for winning a soul over to eternity). The writer of Hebrews has made it clear… I am forever cast out regardless.

 

[Verisimilitude]

So… you are not going to be able to convert me back to christianity… just in case the agenda was one of winning a jewel on your crown (or whatever reward one gets for winning a soul over to eternity). The writer of Hebrews has made it clear… I am forever cast out regardless.

You seem to take a little too much pleasure in that bolded statement as you have convinced yourself that a.) you had previously had received the Holy Spirit and/or b.) you place yourself as Luke 14:34-35 .

If your reading of Hebrews is correct then I too am forever cast out and my faith is worthless as I was raised Catholic but between 20-40 years old I had left the faith. Obviously I don’t think your reading or understanding of it is accurate since death has not ended my (or your) opportunity to repent.

This is relevant now:
Luke 12:10
as is this
Matthew 18:21-22

I will offer this as my last on this thread due to your bolded statement: if you do come to realize other truths you failed to understand earlier in your study of God you should hold the possibility you misunderstand other things as well such as Hebrews. Without that possibility I see little use in continuing a discussion along these lines.

A more contemporary closing:

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I’m younger than that now.
bobdylan.com/#/songs/my-back-pages

Good luck on your journey.

 

[simplynoone]

You seem to take a little too much pleasure in that bolded statement as you have convinced yourself that a.) you had previously had received the Holy Spirit and/or b.) you place yourself as Luke 14:34-35 .

If your reading of Hebrews is correct then I too am forever cast out and my faith is worthless as I was raised Catholic but between 20-40 years old I had left the faith. Obviously I don’t think your reading or understanding of it is accurate since death has not ended my (or your) opportunity to repent.

I assume you think that I took a little too much pleasure in that statement based on the smiley face? FYI, I am addicted to the smilies; that was the only intent of it being there. My feelings when making that statement were honestly quite apathetic. It is neither here nor there with me. The way I see it is if I have honestly done anything in my life that God would consider worthy of eternal damnation, than so be it. I am not looking for a reward or an escape. I am just looking to continue on my journey as it is now… .and to be enlightened and to enlighten others. Nothing more and nothing less. I do not know the god of Christianity, but my life has been deeply impacted by the Creator… in very personal ways. I am assured that my view and my quest for knowledge is not frowned upon.

I am far too curious, as my family says, for my own good… personally, I do not see how that could be a flaw since I am a creation of the Creator. What could I have done that is so worthy of eternal damnation when I have not even done anything worthy of being condemned by the law here in the states? Just not believe that a man is God? I do not even have proof of his existence… and let us not forget that to believe such a thing contradicts the command of God that there shall be no other gods before Him… and He says that He is not a man. It is odd logic… that in which Paul has taught and so many accept as fact.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Simplynoone. Lets try this another way. Okay here is a easy question. Now personally do YOU believe in the NT and Do YOU believe that Jesus Christ fullfilled the O.T.? Lets start there.

 

[simplynoone]

I do not know how to be more clear in answering those questions Rinnie. It would not matter to me to have the NT discarded as it seems to be almost wholly lacking in basic common sense and if Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Testimony, he did so for himself and not for mankind… which he himself made clear.

Now:

Please, show me THROUGH the Scriptures where it is supported that Paul is correct… not using Paul’s words though… using God’s Word.

Paul (well, assuming… it is the same doctrine he uses in his writings) says,

Hebrews 7:
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Yet God’s Word says:

Psa 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psa 119:152,160
Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

[rinnie]

I do not know how to be more clear in answering those questions Rinnie. It would not matter to me to have the NT discarded as it seems to be almost wholly lacking in basic common sense and if Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Testimony, he did so for himself and not for mankind… which he himself made clear.

Now:

Jesus abolished the Law:

As Messiah, Yeshua was the ultimate Torah teacher showing how the entire Hebrew Bible reached fulfillment in him and also giving a deep spiritual insight into how the Torah could remain relevant for the Jewish People for generations to come. Once the Temple was destroyed in 70 C.E. there we only two faiths that remained for the Jewish People. That of the Pharisees (Talmudic Jduaism and that of the Messiah Messianic Jewish/Christian faith. The Messiah has given us a better way.

Jesus made it very clear that he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it, which is exactly what he did. Everything he did he did in the name of his heavenly Father, strenghtening the Peoples faith in God and his word. As for changing the torah the same could be said for the Rabbinic authorities changed the law with their modification nd adjustments.

Look at Mark 7:19 Jesus was exposing error of being scrupulous in terms of outward ritual purity (washing hand, but having unclean hearts and minds).

Everything about belief in Jesus was and is Jewish in the purest and most biblical sense of the word. (Can you not see this)

You must understand that the N.T. authors were Jews. But because they were writing to Jewish readers who knew their scriptures well.

You act like because we believe in the N.T. that we somehow threw out the O.T. We know without the O.T. and the N.T. we could not see the fulfillment of scripture.

But you in part want to disreguard the N.T. totally. You cannot do that. Its impossible.

You do not understand, We are of the New Covenant. God gave Moses words to speak to the people. In ex. 19:8 the people put themsleves under the Law in saying whatever You say we do. What is seen here is self-righteous. Do you not see God did not give us the gentiles the Law. It was given to the Children of Israel. In the O.T. he put the laws into stone, they did not work. In the N.T. God put them in us by the Holy Spirit and it convicts us.
Bottom Line, in the O.T. they could not live by the law, they sinned so death became upon them. But we have the N.T. Jesus had no sins, so he took our sin away. By his death and resurrection he has set us free from death. We have everlasting Life. That is why Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World.

 

[rinnie]

What you do not understand the N.T. is lacking nothing. It is you who are lacking because you cannot understand it. Do you not understand that Jewish People are converting to Christianity in Record numbers. Because the N.T. is really being revealed to them, and explained to them. Just because they are Christians does not mean they abandon their Jewish roots. they are seeing its part of Christianity.

 

[rinnie]

Do you understand what I am saying simplynoone. In Jewish expectation in the first century the Messiah would be some great miracle worker. Jesus did indeed do this, he turned water into wine, he healed the sick, gave sight to the blind. and raised the dead. He is still doing miracles ever day. Do you deny this also. How could you have proof that Jesus is indeed the Messiah without the N.T.?

 

[simplynoone]

Look at Mark 7:19 Jesus was exposing error of being scrupulous in terms of outward ritual purity (washing hand, but having unclean hearts and minds).

Everything about belief in Jesus was and is Jewish in the purest and most biblical sense of the word. (Can you not see this)

But he never said in Mark 7 that the Law was to be abolished. He was enlightening them as to what it is concerning their responsibility to one another and to the world. The Jews place is not one of “right”… it is one of responsibility. They were thinking of the Law as a burden and not seeing the beauty contained therein. When you are ritualistic yet lack the passion, you become rigid and what you are doing no longer gives you purpose or meaning… you become bitter and angry and then that gets put out into the world… and what goes out into the world comes back to you.

There is nothing wrong with the traditions and the commands that God gave them that they hold to for remembrance sake… but when one ignores the needs of others to fulfill one of these traditions and rituals, they are missing the point of what those traditions and rituals were for… to keep in remembrance all that God had done for them… SO THAT it could be given to the world… .the manifestation of God’s heart to the world, that is the place of the Jewish. That is what Jesus was trying to enlighten them to… not to do away with the Laws and commands that God had given to them… those serve their purpose to.

Those traditions and commands do not have anything to do with the Gentiles though… and so, it most likely is the reason why so many can not understand that Jesus was not abolishing, but enlightening… it is why He was ADAMANT that the enlightenment being brought was for the house of Israel only and not for the Gentiles. We could not understand (though… honestly, I can… it makes sense to me) because those things were not a part of our past. Gentiles do NOT have do all those things to be righteous before God; however, if they want to take a hold of the people and their covenant with God then they do. It is simple really.

The human sacrifice and Jesus being a God have nothing to do with anything other than drawing the attention away from the point of what Jesus was bringing to his people… the enlightenment.