Paul Corrupted/Created Christianity

[ralphinal]

Ok, here is the deal. Some posters have begun throwing this claim around. What we need to see is proof. Not generalities, but specific examples of Paul teaching something that is in opposition to Jesus.

Further, the claim is made that Paul was never a member of the group of followers in Jerusalem. This is disproven in passages in Acts. Why do you hold to that idea?

 

[Eucharisted]

The claims about Paul can only be made with a blind eye toward the Gospels. For example, some believe Paul invented the Last Supper. However, Jesus Himself celebrated the first Holy Mass, as recorded in all four Gospels.

By the way, this is what experts believe Saint Paul looked like:

 

[rinnie]

They doubt Jesus Christ. So why would Paul’s teaching be any different. We all kmow whoever turns and twists the teaching of the Church comes from one source. And one source only, The evil one. This is lent, and the time that our Lord suffered. For some reason they feel the need to try to persecute the Church at this time. Its happened before. It actually becomes a pattern.

 

[BrianH]

I do not think it is accurate to say that Paul was part of the Jerusalem group or “pillars”. He did go and meet with Peter and James the brother of the Lord for a two week period.
Now that is not to suggest that his teachings were opposite of that group but this topic is very important and I want to be accurate with our terms.

 

[ricko]

There is no evidence to their claim.

As Sgt. Friday said, “Just the facts ma’am”

 

[simplynoone]

Ok, here is the deal. Some posters have begun throwing this claim around. What we need to see is proof. Not generalities, but specific examples of Paul teaching something that is in opposition to Jesus.

Further, the claim is made that Paul was never a member of the group of followers in Jerusalem. This is disproven in passages in Acts. Why do you hold to that idea?

The Word of God sealed by Malachi 3: 6 to not change:

Psa 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psa 119:152,160
Concerning thy testimonies(statutes), I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments(laws) endureth for ever(are eternal).

Jesus’ position:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul’s position:

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

God’s Word sealed by Malachi 3: 6:

Isa 45:22-23
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Jesus’ position:
Mark 12:
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

Paul’s position:
Philippians 2:9-11
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I have clearly shown where that reference is located and it does not say Jesus, but it says God.

God made it clear that He is not a man within His sealed Word (Mal 3:6):

Hosea 11:9
for I am God, and not man…

Jesus confirmed that this was his Truth as well:

John 4: 24:
God is a Spirit…

Paul took a different position:
Cleary by inserting Jesus into the place of God as being the one every knee will bow to… He calls Jesus God. Since God is not a man and Jesus agrees, there is a contradiction. Not to mention:

Titus 2: 13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 3: 4
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared

And if you really cared to know, you could easily go through and see that he admits that it is Christ who is his god and that the Father, Jesus, and Spirit are part of this Christ godhead… yet nowhere in the Sealed Word of God is there mention that Christ is God.

And another contradiction:

God says in Isaiah, numerous times, that He has not hid these things from us and that they are declared by Him.

Paul continually talks about the mystery of God.

Paul’s god was not the God that Jesus knew. Paul’s god is not the God spoken of in the sealed Word of God (mal 3:6).

Paul is a master manipulator. I have shown this and now, using the foundation that was sealed to not change, show me where Paul’s teachings are validated, as I have just shown you that they indeed are spoken directly against.

 

[ralphinal]

You’ve put a lot in here, so let me see what I can do.

The Word of God sealed by Malachi 3: 6 to not change:

Psa 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psa 119:152,160
Concerning thy testimonies(statutes), I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments(laws) endureth for ever(are eternal).

Jesus’ position:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul’s position:

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

What does it mean that the law be fulfilled?

God’s Word sealed by Malachi 3: 6:

Isa 45:22-23
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Jesus’ position:
Mark 12:
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

Paul’s position:
Philippians 2:9-11
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I have clearly shown where that reference is located and it does not say Jesus, but it says God.

What is the exact word that is used? Is it the NAME for God given to Moses? Is it LORD? Is it something else?

God made it clear that He is not a man within His sealed Word (Mal 3:6):

Hosea 11:9
for I am God, and not man…

Jesus confirmed that this was his Truth as well:

John 4: 24:
God is a Spirit…

Paul took a different position:
Cleary by inserting Jesus into the place of God as being the one every knee will bow to… He calls Jesus God. Since God is not a man and Jesus agrees, there is a contradiction. Not to mention:

Titus 2: 13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 3: 4
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared

And if you really cared to know, you could easily go through and see that he admits that it is Christ who is his god and that the Father, Jesus, and Spirit are part of this Christ godhead… yet nowhere in the Sealed Word of God is there mention that Christ is God.

Yet Jesus himself said that he and the Father are one, and that to know him is to know the Father. I wonder what that means…Those who heard him tried to kill him for making himself equal to God.

And another contradiction:

God says in Isaiah, numerous times, that He has not hid these things from us and that they are declared by Him.

Paul continually talks about the mystery of God.

Paul’s god was not the God that Jesus knew. Paul’s god is not the God spoken of in the sealed Word of God (mal 3:6).

Paul is a master manipulator. I have shown this and now, using the foundation that was sealed to not change, show me where Paul’s teachings are validated, as I have just shown you that they indeed are spoken directly against.

So man can understand God? Does the book of Job not tell us differently? Which is it?

You keep speaking of the Sealed Word of God. DO you mean that the Cannon of Scripture is the same today as it was 1500 years ago?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

They doubt Jesus Christ. So why would Paul’s teaching be any different. We all kmow whoever turns and twists the teaching of the Church comes from one source. And one source only, The evil one. This is lent, and the time that our Lord suffered. For some reason they feel the need to try to persecute the Church at this time. Its happened before. It actually becomes a pattern.

Hear! Hear! I decided I am not going to read any more of these subversive threads trying to show that Jesus is not the Son of God. I think we should boycott these threads and not argue or reason with the anti-Catholic posters.

Now is the time to remember our dear Lord who suffered and died for us.

 

[ralphinal]

Hear! Hear! I decided I am not going to read any more of these subversive threads trying to show that Jesus is not the Son of God. I think we should boycott these threads and not argue or reason with the anti-Catholic posters.

Now is the time to remember our dear Lord who suffered and died for us.

I am going to ignore you as this is your 666 post.

I want to see how mistaken these people are and see if we can make them understand

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I am going to ignore you as this is your 666 post.

I want to see how mistaken these people are and see if we can make them understand

That IS Scary!!

I just don’t think we can argue with people who are so off-track. For a while, I was trying to make sense of some of it, but it’s like arguing apples and oranges. Plus, it makes me feel bad.

But more power to you if you can get somewhere!

 

[ralphinal]

That IS Scary!!

I just don’t think we can argue with people who are so off-track. For a while, I was trying to make sense of some of it, but it’s like arguing apples and oranges. Plus, it makes me feel bad.

But more power to you if you can get somewhere!

I doubt I will get anywhere, but I am tired of the topic

 

[ckempston]

The Word of God sealed by Malachi 3: 6 to not change:

Psa 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psa 119:152,160
Concerning thy testimonies(statutes), I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments(laws) endureth for ever(are eternal).

Jesus’ position:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

All was fulfilled - in JESUS. Your position is demolished by this rather simple fact.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul’s position:

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

God’s Word sealed by Malachi 3: 6:

Isa 45:22-23
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Jesus’ position:
Mark 12:
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

Nice how you pick some words of Jesus and leave others out. You left out:

John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Paul’s position:
Philippians 2:9-11
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I have clearly shown where that reference is located and it does not say Jesus, but it says God.

God made it clear that He is not a man within His sealed Word (Mal 3:6):

Hosea 11:9
for I am God, and not man…

Jesus confirmed that this was his Truth as well:

John 4: 24:
God is a Spirit…

Paul took a different position:
Cleary by inserting Jesus into the place of God as being the one every knee will bow to… He calls Jesus God. Since God is not a man and Jesus agrees, there is a contradiction. Not to mention:

Titus 2: 13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 3: 4
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared

And if you really cared to know, you could easily go through and see that he admits that it is Christ who is his god and that the Father, Jesus, and Spirit are part of this Christ godhead… yet nowhere in the Sealed Word of God is there mention that Christ is God.

Nowhere?

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

And another contradiction:

God says in Isaiah, numerous times, that He has not hid these things from us and that they are declared by Him.

Paul continually talks about the mystery of God.

A mystery is simply something that man cannot understand:

Job 28:23 God understands the way to it and he alone knows where it dwells,

Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

Our understanding does have limits. Clearly, the God of the Old Testament has no problem with pointing out that he understands things man does not.

Paul’s god was not the God that Jesus knew. Paul’s god is not the God spoken of in the sealed Word of God (mal 3:6).

Paul is a master manipulator. I have shown this and now, using the foundation that was sealed to not change, show me where Paul’s teachings are validated, as I have just shown you that they indeed are spoken directly against.

 

[dzheremi]

As I tried to point out to this “Simplynoone” person in another thread when s/he insisted that Jesus’ Jewishness somehow invalidates Christianity, what about those things that Jesus Himself said and did that were in violation of the Jewish customs (at least as the Pharisees understood them)? What writing of Paul’s could Jesus have been following when He told them that it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles the man, but what comes out?

If these people want to discount Paul, they are free to do so. In a way, it makes sense, as Paul in effect brought Christianity out of Judaism through his missions among the Gentiles. These people that try to make Christianity into Judaism (which includes certain Muslims on this board, too) because of the religious identity of The Savior HATE that this happened. They want to say that because we do not follow the Jewish customs while Jesus said He came not to destroy the old law but to fulfill it, we are illegitimate as a religious community. So, as Ralphinal pointed out, the question really becomes “what does it mean to fulfill the law?” We Christians obviously see Jesus as the fulfillment of the old law that bound the Jews, and with Him, we (Gentiles) enter into a new covenant with God. Jews says this is hogwash because the old covenant is still in effect. We do not deny them the right to this covenant which is their birthright as Jews. We just don’t live under it, because we believe Jesus showed us another way, which is the fulfillment of the law as stated in the scriptures. So, we really have no trouble with the idea that not one dot of the old law has been changed. It hasn’t. We don’t claim that it has. Jesus does not claim that it has. It has been FULFILLED through the life and the example that His life is for all times.

Again, others can disagree with this until the cows come home; it will not change what Christ Himself said and did, free from ANY influence of Paul. Let us not forget that Paul did not write the Gospel of Matthew, where Jesus claims to come to fulfill the law!

Paul did not invent Christianity! Whether or not he “corrupted” it I suppose depends whether or not you feel Christianity has been “corrupted” by the break with Judaism (a video from ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jews a few days ago leads me to think that the most conservative of the Jews must think it did the opposite, “cleansing” Judaism of the weakest of its members…whatever!). Why Jews would be at all concerned with this break after already pronouncing the Jewish Christians heretics for their acceptance of Christ is beyond me, but then, I am not a Jew. Let those who are so concerned with pushing their version of the “truth” worry about the cognitive dissonance that they have created for themselves. It does not affect me, nor any Christian I know.

 

[simplynoone]

Remember Matt 5: 17-19 is enough to show that Jesus took the position of the Sealed Word of God, so anything that Paul says contradicting it is also contradicting the teachings of Jesus.

God stated in Isa 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

The references are far too numerous, but just a quick read through the first 5 chapters of Romans will show you that Paul does not understand God’s name is LORD and not Jesus Christ.

Also in reference to the above passage, note “and my glory will I not give to another…”

But Paul says:

Phillippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

How many contradictions are we up to now?

God’s Word sealed with Mal 3: 6:

Isa 45:21
…and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Paul says:

Phillippians 3: 20
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Titus 1: 4
To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Titus 3: 6
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

God said:

Joel 2:27
And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Paul said:

Galatians 5: 2
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

no doubt Paul! I would think they are rather happy about that fact given God’s promise in Joel 2: 27 and having it sealed with Malachi 3: 6

And here is seen the brilliance of God

Jesus says:

Matthew 7: 15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Paul admits:
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

And in the Sealed Word of God:

Genesis 49: 27
Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.

Can you make the connection?

It is as the God OF Israel said:

Isaiah 45:

19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Psalm 2… Kiss the Son!
Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

 

[ralphinal]

Simplynoone,
As this is a thread that I started, I will police it. It is impossible to dialog if you are just going to shotgun posts with as many points as you can and ignore what others write in response. If you feel that this is the best way to prove your point, please trouble us no more and be gone.

If, however, you really want to discuss, let us reason together ONE POINT AT A TIME.

 

[simplynoone]

Simplynoone,
As this is a thread that I started, I will police it. It is impossible to dialog if you are just going to shotgun posts with as many points as you can and ignore what others write in response. If you feel that this is the best way to prove your point, please trouble us no more and be gone.

If, however, you really want to discuss, let us reason together ONE POINT AT A TIME.

Your OP premise:

“What we need to see is proof. Not generalities, but specific examples of Paul teaching something that is in opposition to Jesus.”

You did not specify point by point and you did not say it was up for discussion. You wanted proof and that is what I have given to you.

 

[ralphinal]

Your OP premise:

“What we need to see is proof. Not generalities, but specific examples of Paul teaching something that is in opposition to Jesus.”

You did not specify point by point and you did not say it was up for discussion. You wanted proof and that is what I have given to you.

Not really. You have connected OT with Gospel and compaired them with Paul. That is good to begin with. What you have not done si shown that the meanings of these passages is in opposition OR that you understand these passages at all.

Proof would be “Paul said that Jesus did xyz” when he did not do this.

What we have so far from you is a supported position, but not one that is without issues.

 

[rinnie]

I doubt I will get anywhere, but I am tired of the topic

Im with you Ralph, we need to stop them once and for all. They sure are out there this month are they not?

 

[simplynoone]

Not really. You have connected OT with Gospel and compaired them with Paul. That is good to begin with. What you have not done si shown that the meanings of these passages is in opposition OR that you understand these passages at all.

Proof would be “Paul said that Jesus did xyz” when he did not do this.

What we have so far from you is a supported position, but not one that is without issues.

Does not matter to me to be honest what it is that you do not agree with. This is my position and you have repeatedly insulted me for what it is I know. You asked for proof of what I know and I am giving it to you. If you do not agree, then state that. I do not have to debate it as your premise of this thread never entailed a debate. It only stated prove it with specific examples. I have done quite well for my position and I did it on your terms. You are free to prove otherwise with specific examples, but remember that Jesus was clear his teachings could be found in the Scriptures and this did not include NT since it did not exist at the time, not to mention his declaration in Matthew 5: 17-19. So anything that you attribute to Jesus MUST, by his own rules, be found in the Tanakh.

 

[dzheremi]

Phillippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

To respond to your whole post would take too long and I am short on time, but just to respond to this one point: Exactly what is it that you think we are doing when we proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord? Is Jesus Lord of His own means? NO! Jesus, in effect, does not have power separate from the power of the Father. He Himself says so. So, in venerating Christ as Lord, we are in no way not giving glory to the Father, because it is from the Father that all power comes and with Him that all power rests. Jesus is ONE substance/essence with the Father, not a second deity acting of His own accord. You obviously do not understand this point if you think that confessing Jesus’ divinity is somehow to the detriment of the Father. It is in confirmation of the power of the Father and His incomparable gift of His only begotten Son, who was given up for us men and for our salvation!

Matthew 28:18 - Jesus came and talked to them. He said, “All power in Heaven and on Earth has been given to me.”