Paul Corrupted/Created Christianity

[simplynoone]

To respond to your whole post would take too long and I am short on time, but just to respond to this one point: Exactly what is it that you think we are doing when we proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord? Is Jesus Lord of His own means? NO! Jesus, in effect, does not have power separate from the power of the Father. He Himself says so. So, in venerating Christ as Lord, we are in no way not giving glory to the Father, because it is from the Father that all power comes and with Him that all power rests. Jesus is ONE substance/essence with the Father, not a second deity acting of His own accord. You obviously do not understand this point if you think that confessing Jesus’ divinity is somehow to the detriment of the Father. It is in confirmation of the power of the Father and His incomparable gift of His only begotten Son, who was given up for us men and for our salvation!

Matthew 28:18 - Jesus came and talked to them. He said, “All power in Heaven and on Earth has been given to me.”

And where is this supported in the Tanakh? If you cannot find it supported there, that Jesus was given power in Heaven and on Earth, then it was not a teaching of Jesus’. I am open to seeing it when you find the time to find it.

 

[simplynoone]

Im with you Ralph, we need to stop them once and for all. They sure are out there this month are they not?

Hmmm… what have I done that would be contradictory to what the premise of this thread stated?

By the way, Paul agrees with you.

Titus 1:10-16
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision(Jews):
Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Know why that is a dangerous message? Because to stop a mouth you must either:

1. Be educated enough in the Scriptures to prove otherwise, and this will not happen with what I presented because it is clear, to the point, and supported with God’s Word.

so

1. Rebuke or silence by playing the bully card, which is cowardly (in this case, I can almost hear the scramblings to have the thread shut down).

and eventually, if this blind faith keeps escalating as more and more Truth is revealed to show the blind faith false, as it will continue to happen,

1. Physical force will be used to shut the mouths of those who declare the things that have been hidden by the deceivers, as has been the case throughout the history of the world.

 

[inJESUS]

And where is this supported in the Tanakh? If you cannot find it supported there, that Jesus was given power in Heaven and on Earth, then it was not a teaching of Jesus’. I am open to seeing it when you find the time to find it.

if it was not a teaching of Jesus, neither Paul, then why not accuse Matthew as well of inventing Christianity?

 

[simplynoone]

Not really. You have connected OT with Gospel and compaired them with Paul. That is good to begin with. What you have not done si shown that the meanings of these passages is in opposition OR that you understand these passages at all.

Proof would be “Paul said that Jesus did xyz” when he did not do this.

What we have so far from you is a supported position, but not one that is without issues.

J.e.s.u.s states:

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So, anytime that I show anything in the Law and in the Prophets, it is supported by Jesus by his own confession.

Besides, Jesus is not God and God stated in Malachi 3: 6, “I am the LORD, I change not.”

So, either you agree that the Laws of God are perfect for converting the soul and that they are everlasting as declared by God who said He does not change or you admit that God is a liar or you admit that you are worshiping another god, the invention of Christ by Paul. It can not be any other way as I have shown you clearly with the Word of God.

 

[ralphinal]

Does not matter to me to be honest what it is that you do not agree with. This is my position and you have repeatedly insulted me for what it is I know. You asked for proof of what I know and I am giving it to you. If you do not agree, then state that. I do not have to debate it as your premise of this thread never entailed a debate. It only stated prove it with specific examples. I have done quite well for my position and I did it on your terms. You are free to prove otherwise with specific examples, but remember that Jesus was clear his teachings could be found in the Scriptures and this did not include NT since it did not exist at the time, not to mention his declaration in Matthew 5: 17-19. So anything that you attribute to Jesus MUST, by his own rules, be found in the Tanakh.

I mean you no insult. If I have insulted you, I am sorry.

What you are doing is taking part of a text and using it to prove a posittion. Most people do that. the only problem is that the Scriptures and the Catholic Faith are made from whole cloth. You cannot focus on a part of it and ignore the rest.

See, Jesus taught his 12 followers and others. They, in turn, taught more. Paul was one of those who followed Jesus. Had he been in opposition of what had been taught, the other 12 would ahve said something, and his writings would have been left out. All of the teaching was done orally, with the Jewish texts being used to support the claims of Jesus as the Messiah. Once a church was founded, the Apostles wrote to them to guide them. The Gospels were used to help preserve the story and to support the testemony of those in charge.

See, this is Catholic teaching. There are two componants of what we know about the Faith: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. You must have both to begin to understand. The two together form two of the three legs upon which the Church rests. The third is the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

If Paul was a corruptor, why did the rest of the Church go along with him? Polycarp was taught by John. Ignatious was a first generation of the Apostles. WHy did they not correct the errors? In fact, John was alive until after all of Paul’s writtings were complete. DO you not think that he had some say in their inclusion?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

All through the Old Testaments the prophets warned about Jews being a stiff-necked people and how God would punish them for thier unending disbelief and idolism. The prophets also showed how God relented and relented and his final move was to give his only Son as redemption for the world.

The Jews who refuse to believe in God’s ultimate gift are the same stiff-necked people God raged about in the Old Testament. Christ came to fulfill the prophesies and redeem mankind.He is there for all who believe in Him.

 

[ralphinal]

J.e.s.u.s states:

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So, anytime that I show anything in the Law and in the Prophets, it is supported by Jesus by his own confession.

Besides, Jesus is not God and God stated in Malachi 3: 6, “I am the LORD, I change not.”

So, either you agree that the Laws of God are perfect for converting the soul and that they are everlasting as declared by God who said He does not change or you admit that God is a liar or you admit that you are worshiping another god, the invention of Christ by Paul. It can not be any other way as I have shown you clearly with the Word of God.

What does FULFILL mean?

 

[simplynoone]

if it was not a teaching of Jesus, neither Paul, then why not accuse Matthew as well of inventing Christianity?

I will clearly show you this as well:

Jesus says:

Matthew 5: 20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And many Woa unto you Scribes and Pharisees! This has nothing to do with the Jewish that do not believe in a man as God. This has to do with the Scribes that would manipulate the writings of the Word of God and the Pharisees like Paul who would spread the false word to the nations.

The Word is the Son of Man and the Son of God is Israel who would speak the Word of God.

Matthew 17:1-11

If only you knew the prophets words well enough to understand the vision spoken of by Jesus and confirmed by the Son of Man who is very much alive and speaking. You only know the pulled out of context bits and pieces that support the deception.

I am setting the foundation straight for you all.

 

[simplynoone]

What does FULFILL mean?

Wow! This is worse than I thought. You are on a computer and obviously have the internet. It is only a few clicks away to finding out the definition.

Tell me where Jesus said that he was fulfilling it for mankind by the way.

 

[ralphinal]

Wow! This is worse than I thought. You are on a computer and obviously have the internet. It is only a few clicks away to finding out the definition.

Tell me where Jesus said that he was fulfilling it for mankind by the way.

One thing at a time. Does fulfill mean complete? Does it mean to make whole? Does it mean to satisfy?

 

[simplynoone]

I mean you no insult. If I have insulted you, I am sorry.

the Catholic Faith are made from whole cloth. You cannot focus on a part of it and ignore the rest.

I accept it and do not worry, I was not offended. I was just complying with what you had asked for since I could do so after pouring over the Truth.

Per the 2nd part, how so?

If God said in Malachi 3:6 that he does not change and then states that His Laws are perfect and everlasting, then would it not mean that He was lying if they could be improved upon and if they could be abolished as Paul had claimed?

Was Paul lying or was God lying? Which is it because they both cannot be telling the Truth.

If the OT is over with and replaced by the NT, then God lied since He changed.

If the Laws really ARE NOT perfect for converting the soul and were abolished with human sacrifice, then God lied.

It is either/or. Which is it for you?

 

[ralphinal]

I accept it and do not worry, I was not offended. I was just complying with what you had asked for since I could do so after pouring over the Truth.

Per the 2nd part, how so?

If God said in Malachi 3:6 that he does not change and then states that His Laws are perfect and everlasting, then would it not mean that He was lying if they could be improved upon and if they could be abolished as Paul had claimed?

Was Paul lying or was God lying? Which is it because they both cannot be telling the Truth.

If the OT is over with and replaced by the NT, then God lied since He changed.

If the Laws really ARE NOT perfect for converting the soul and were abolished with human sacrifice, then God lied.

It is either/or. Which is it for you?

There is a third option, you know…

No one lied.

God’s law may not have been a final state, but one of transition. Think about this, did God command animal offerings? The OT is full of them, but you never see GOd ORDERING them until after Isreal is taken from Egypt. Is it possible that this state was meant to transition Isreal from the pagan-infested faith they developed in Egypt into one of true spiritualism?

 

[simplynoone]

All through the Old Testaments the prophets warned about Jews being a stiff-necked people and how God would punish them for thier unending disbelief and idolism. The prophets also showed how God relented and relented and his final move was to give his only Son as redemption for the world.

The Jews who refuse to believe in God’s ultimate gift are the same stiff-necked people God raged about in the Old Testament. Christ came to fulfill the prophesies and redeem mankind.He is there for all who believe in Him.

And God over and over in the Tanakh said that He would chastise Israel because He loved them. So what is your point? Yes, He declared this and He said that He would cast them away and then gather them back because He loves them so. He declared how He would cast them away and He declared how He would gather them together again.

Now, since you are declaring to know that Christ filled the prophecies, please post the Scripture references within the context of the prophets that say:

1. Christ would fulfill the prophecies and redeem mankind.
2. The Gentiles/Church would replace His chosen Israel.
3. How about even that Jesus is the only son of God.

I am giving you all opportunity to convert me to your religion before I convert to the only one, thus far, that shows me through God’s Word the Truth of the matters.

 

[simplynoone]

There is a third option, you know…

No one lied.

God’s law may not have been a final state, but one of transition. Think about this, did God command animal offerings? The OT is full of them, but you never see GOd ORDERING them until after Isreal is taken from Egypt. Is it possible that this state was meant to transition Isreal from the pagan-infested faith they developed in Egypt into one of true spiritualism?

Show me one prophecy that show that Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of prophecies.

Show me one time where God said in the prophecies that He was making a New Covenant with mankind (or even with Gentiles).

I have given you much and am receiving little of prophecies fulfilled in the way you claim. I am disappointed.

By the way, if you do not believe that the Tanakh is fully God’s Word, then why are you basing your belief systems on the prophecies within?

 

[simplynoone]

What is the exact word that is used? Is it the NAME for God given to Moses? Is it LORD? Is it something else?

You tell me? What do you see there?

So man can understand God? Does the book of Job not tell us differently? Which is it?

Job 17:

1My breath is corrupt, my days are extinct, the graves are ready for me.

2Are there not mockers with me? and doth not mine eye continue in their provocation?

3Lay down now, put me in a surety with thee; who is he that will strike hands with me?

4For thou hast hid their heart from understanding: therefore shalt thou not exalt them.

5He that speaketh flattery to his friends, even the eyes of his children shall fail.

6He hath made me also a byword of the people; and aforetime I was as a tabret.

7Mine eye also is dim by reason of sorrow, and all my members are as a shadow.

8Upright men shall be astonied at this, and the innocent shall stir up himself against the hypocrite.

9The righteous also shall hold on his way, and he that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger.

10But as for you all, do ye return, and come now: for I cannot find one wise man among you.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

And God over and over in the Tanakh said that He would chastise Israel because He loved them. So what is your point? Yes, He declared this and He said that He would cast them away and then gather them back because He loves them so. He declared how He would cast them away and He declared how He would gather them together again.

Now, since you are declaring to know that Christ filled the prophecies, please post the Scripture references within the context of the prophets that say:

1. Christ would fulfill the prophecies and redeem mankind.
2. The Gentiles/Church would replace His chosen Israel.
3. How about even that Jesus is the only son of God.

I am giving you all opportunity to convert me to your religion before I convert to the only one, thus far, that shows me through God’s Word the Truth of the matters.

I will give you this website. There are many many places in the Old Testament that proclaim Jesus Christ is the SON of God.

cynet.com/jesus/PROPHECY/ntquoted.htm

 

[chrisse]

I am giving you all opportunity to convert me to your religion before I convert to the only one, thus far, that shows me through God’s Word the Truth of the matters.

Are you simplyfickle or simplyargumentative, simplynoone?

 

[rinnie]

J.e.s.u.s states:

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So, anytime that I show anything in the Law and in the Prophets, it is supported by Jesus by his own confession.

Besides, Jesus is not God and God stated in Malachi 3: 6, “I am the LORD, I change not.”

So, either you agree that the Laws of God are perfect for converting the soul and that they are everlasting as declared by God who said He does not change or you admit that God is a liar or you admit that you are worshiping another god, the invention of Christ by Paul. It can not be any other way as I have shown you clearly with the Word of God.

First question where and how did Jesus change the law. He fullfilled it you admitted that yourself.

Second there is one God, divided into three divine being’s. The Father, the Son and the Holy SPirit. All equals one person God.I have asked this before, Which of the ten commandments do you feel God did away with?

The mosaic law gave the Jews privilaged status, and separated them from the gentiles. Jesus abolished this law by fulfilling it once for all on the cross. This new man is the prototype of the new humanity that God re-created in the person of Christ. CHrist is the second Adam, he took away sin by the cross. The new Adam has been created in the goodness and holiness of truth. He is unique because in him the boundaries between any one group and the rest of the human race disappear. Christ united the jews and the gentiles.

 

[simplynoone]

All was fulfilled - in JESUS. Your position is demolished by this rather simple fact.

Nice how you pick some words of Jesus and leave others out. You left out:

John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

So… show me in the Word of God, where Jesus said his teachings would be supported, do you see the name Jesus mentioned? God said He declared these things from the beginning and has not kep them hid from our eyes. So, where is it?

Nowhere?

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

God names His son. You can find it in Hosea 11: 1. Why don’t you post up the name that you see for me. Maybe your version says something different?

If not, God said these things were not hid from our eyes and my KJV it is Israel written there as the Son and not Jesus. So, what does your say? Perhaps we do have a misunderstanding in my version.

I am after Truth and in the name of that quest, I looked it up in 20 different English versions all of which name the Son of God as Israel. shrugs

A mystery is simply something that man cannot understand:

Job 28:23 God understands the way to it and he alone knows where it dwells,

Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

Our understanding does have limits. Clearly, the God of the Old Testament has no problem with pointing out that he understands things man does not.

Proverbs 2: 1-7

Isaiah 43:

7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.

9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

And to those only quoting a verse out of Job… read the whole book and not just one verse. When Job was able to see that man’s knowledge could not save him, God fed him knowledge from His own mouth.

I am giving you knowledge that comes from God and so no one is declaring me wrong, but rather God wrong.

crickets

Oh, and for the schpill about not including the rest of the passage, the end of Psalm 147 declares exactly who it is you can go to to gain the knowledge of God.

19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.

20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

He declares it… the nations have not been dealt with by God as has Jacob, Israel and thus, they cannot know the judgments of God save by the Son of God, which is declared as Israel.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Ok, here is the deal. Some posters have begun throwing this claim around. What we need to see is proof. Not generalities, but specific examples of Paul teaching something that is in opposition to Jesus.

Further, the claim is made that Paul was never a member of the group of followers in Jerusalem. This is disproven in passages in Acts. Why do you hold to that idea?

I’m sorry but your post is most unclear. You make a general statement in the first paragraph with no specifics. What proof on what issue is missing? Who said what about Paul being in opposition to Jesus?

Who are you addressing? It’s all very confusing. You must specify exactly what you believe is being claimed. I’m frankly lost.