R
rinnie
Guest
But you did not answer the question.
- Status
C
ckempston
Guest
Are you trained in textual criticism? The same “evidences” you give for collusion and deceptive authorship could be found in Old Testament writings where different authorship is widely accepted. The differences between the Pauline epistles and the other letters are far more than the similarities. You have failed to consider other possibilities, such as the the possibility that similar words and phrases are simply a result of similar cultural background.Seriously? It was not just a standard heading in which I showed. It was a style of writing. Read 3 John. He slanders, he salivates over others, and it is the exact same style as Paul… the whole of it. If you say otherwise then you are indeed admitting your ignorance in Paul’s writings. It is one in the same. Still, this was just a side note that is obvious, but I have presented much more factual evidence of his deception. Why don’t you hit on those?
P
planten
Guest
**rinnie is suggesting some special (Catholic) version of scripture. Is there a catholic bible? I hope so. I had been reading the King James Version only. Now I can consult the Gateway bible, not with any bad intention.
We also hade raised our objections to the doings of Saul. But nobody listened. Is Jesus not enough? Are there no good teachings of Jesus in the gospels?
Specially mixing the clean monotheistic teachings of Jesus with the malevolent pagan greek mythology of sons of gods and daughters of gods and goddesses etc. That ruined the original teachings of Jesus which were completely Jewish.
So, the topic : “Paul Corrupted/Created Christianity” is 100 % true. Jesus never knew about the present day christianity.**
We also hade raised our objections to the doings of Saul. But nobody listened. Is Jesus not enough? Are there no good teachings of Jesus in the gospels?
Specially mixing the clean monotheistic teachings of Jesus with the malevolent pagan greek mythology of sons of gods and daughters of gods and goddesses etc. That ruined the original teachings of Jesus which were completely Jewish.
So, the topic : “Paul Corrupted/Created Christianity” is 100 % true. Jesus never knew about the present day christianity.**
C
ckempston
Guest
What’s really sad here is that you don’t even realize (or maybe you do) that the same methods you are using to tear down the New Testament writings are the same methods used by liberal, atheist scholars to discount the veracity and reliabilty of the Old Testament writings. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.Ben, considering Paul was so into this "beloved’ term, and considering what I have said about 3 John… I am wondering if our “beloved”Paul had his hand in that as well. Just a thought that progressed as I brought forth the evidence in which was asked for by the OP.
S
simplynoone
Guest
You are speaking of the following Jesus obviously:
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
That flesh and blood that he is talking about is called experience. Yes, here your christ is giving your St. the church and the keys because he has acknowledged this Christ for what he is.
I have even helped you to support your claims.
Quite at ease thank you. It was a promise my to me by the G.d of Israel… and here is how He promised it to me… Just so you can see Him working before your very eyes!
Isaiah 46:
1Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast.
2They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
3Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
4And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
5To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
6T hey lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.
8Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel
That’s the God I serve. The one who is declaring the end from the beginning even now as you sit here reading His Word that I merely typed out… not my words, but His Word. Declaring Himself since He does not need me to do it for Him.
Yes, as I have shown, the lord Jesus Christ did indeed leave the church to you all.
I am honestly fine with this. I am happy with my God and with His Word that declares the end from the beginning so that as these things continue to pour forth that He has declared (Himself), His children will know that it is Him who is working and they will not be put to shame.
You are not arguing me as I have continued to back up everything with the Word of God. I guess it is only a matter of time that we see which had the true Word, no? It seems to be the only option since you are giving me no proof to validate your claims that God handed the church to you… kind of at a stand still.
S
simplynoone
Guest
You do know what it means when He says that He is declaring the end from the beginning, right?
Isaiah 48: 3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
4Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;
5I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
6Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
7They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
8Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
9For my name’s sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
10Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Yes, the NT is now in the state of a glass house as I have been showing via the beginning of the Book. Look at that. He even declare who it is that He considers His namesake! O Jacob and Israel! How cool is He?!
9For my name’s sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
Considering that He declares His namesake, I guess Ben wasn’t wrong after all and that salvation really IS of the Jews (just taking note that it is because of His namesake that He defers His anger). Psalm 2!
S
simplynoone
Guest
Why, Yes I am, and my certificate of education is actually available for viewing!
Proverbs 2:
1My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
6For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Sealed by the Teacherr Himself, the LORD, in Malachi 3:6.
S
simplynoone
Guest
I did. And I backed it up with the Word of God. The Laws of God, of course.
S
simplynoone
Guest
I did not ignore your questions. I do believe every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God… how could I not when He is proving them even now; and because of that I am faithful to Him.
Well, though I did not mention Paul in reference to Genesis… funny how your mind picked up on what is clearly written there in that account of Abraham. God… declaring the end from the beginning right in front of your eyes!
C
ckempston
Guest
Nice how you snipped the second part of my post. If you really are a professional textual critic, then you should know what I pointed following the one sentence you lifted out of context. But instead, you ignore the elephant in the room and only reply to statements on which you can provide rhetoric instead of substance. The very arguments you are using here can be used to discredit the Old Testament. Your position is one big special pleading fest.Why, Yes I am, and my certificate of education is actually available for viewing!
R
rinnie
Guest
What are you calling this an answer. Again you accuse me of living on faith. Again did Abraham also not live on faith. Yes or No?I did not ignore your questions. I do believe every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God… how could I not when He is proving them even now; and because of that I am faithful to Him.
Well, though I did not mention Paul in reference to Genesis… funny how your mind picked up on what is clearly written there in that account of Abraham. God… declaring the end from the beginning right in front of your eyes!
R
rinnie
Guest
Yes there most certainly is. It was the first Bible written. All by the Catholic Church. You may want to read the book or get the history on where the first bible came from. there is much imfo out there. All you have to do is look it up. Better yet ask your preacher where the bible came from. He knows.
R
rinnie
Guest
Oh my some truth. Guess what I even agree with you. You did have the truth. But then when our Lord came back he was rejected by you. And so Jews are no longer the chosen People. It is the gentliles who have the truth now. We accept Jesus Christ, we know who God is. He became man. You cannot accept this truth. We have, and we have the Living Church. We do not call the apostles of CHrists liars, we do not try to twist the gospel to work into our minds. We have the Church. The Roman Catholic Church. We have the Pope. We have it all. Nothing is lacking, We have faith, we have the Pope, we have the Church the living Christ. There is nothing else left. We have the law and it is hard to keep the commandments and to show Love to people like you who try tricks, and lies. But we must love, and if we do not feel love at the moment we pray. That is again what I must do for you is pray. And I must love my those who try to persecute my God and my Church. But it is difficult. But with my Love for Jesus, it will over power any bad feeling and help me through difficult times. May our dear Lord come into your heart and show you the peace he has given me, and you so sadly seek.You are speaking of the following Jesus obviously:
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
That flesh and blood that he is talking about is called experience. Yes, here your christ is giving your St. the church and the keys because he has acknowledged this Christ for what he is.
I have even helped you to support your claims.
Quite at ease thank you. It was a promise my to me by the G.d of Israel… and here is how He promised it to me… Just so you can see Him working before your very eyes!
Isaiah 46:
1Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast.
2They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
3Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
4And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
5To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
6T hey lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.
8Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel
That’s the God I serve. The one who is declaring the end from the beginning even now as you sit here reading His Word that I merely typed out… not my words, but His Word. Declaring Himself since He does not need me to do it for Him.
Yes, as I have shown, the lord Jesus Christ did indeed leave the church to you all.
I am honestly fine with this. I am happy with my God and with His Word that declares the end from the beginning so that as these things continue to pour forth that He has declared (Himself), His children will know that it is Him who is working and they will not be put to shame.
You are not arguing me as I have continued to back up everything with the Word of God. I guess it is only a matter of time that we see which had the true Word, no? It seems to be the only option since you are giving me no proof to validate your claims that God handed the church to you… kind of at a stand still.
R
ralphinal
Guest
Planten is a member of a branch of Islam that most of the other branches consider heretical. He would have no concept of were the Bible came from or why it matters.
Ok, I still have not seen an answer for what Jesus meant when he said FULFILLED.
Do you have any actual documentation from other sources about 3 John being written by Paul? One important reason that I ask is that John was known for preaching LOVE to all. It would not be crazy for him to use such language.
If Paul “Invented” the last supper, why did the other Apostles celebrate it? Why did they allow it to be written about?
Ok, I still have not seen an answer for what Jesus meant when he said FULFILLED.
Do you have any actual documentation from other sources about 3 John being written by Paul? One important reason that I ask is that John was known for preaching LOVE to all. It would not be crazy for him to use such language.
If Paul “Invented” the last supper, why did the other Apostles celebrate it? Why did they allow it to be written about?
R
rinnie
Guest
Exactly Ralph. I REST MY CASE.
S
simplynoone
Guest
I assure you, I am free to consider all possibilities and have done such. I do not believe in coincidences. I know there is a reason for the things that I am pointing out.
Certainly Paul served his purpose quite well. I do not deny him that… Romans 11 is quite telling, no? Psalm 2… you are biting toward me for something you all are guilty of yourselves. Now tell me… who is it in Hosea 11:1 and in Exodus 4 that God declares as His son? Not the assumptions, but rather the declaration. Please, post it JUST as it says without interpretation. Else, you suffer in your own hypocrisies.
S
simplynoone
Guest
I have accused you of nothing in what it is you are replying to. I was very careful with my choice of wording so as not to upset the chosen of Christ.
Though I must point out that you seem rather upset at the thought of being told that you are living on faith. Care to share with us why that is?
No, Abraham did not live on faith. No one lives on faith. Abraham lived in the only way that it is possible to live… in knowledge. God was showing him and teaching him things, was He not? So that is not living on faith. He was faithful to the One who had already proved Himself to Abraham. He trusted His Word because He had been given reason to do so.
I answered your question, now please, show me that you are not hypocritical in your biting remarks and tell me, who is that is declared as the Son of God in Hosea 11:1 and Exodus 4:22,23. Only what it says… nothing else.
D
dzheremi
Guest
Simplynoone, if you could go more than one post without mentioning how YOU have the truth, YOU’VE discovered this, YOU know that YOU follow God and others don’t, YOU, YOU, YOU…well, it would be really great. Your posts have a ring of gnosticism in them in that you often hint at some divine knowledge you alone have come to possess since deciding that you are right about everything just because you can read (or whatever it is that you think you are proving by cramming your replies with as many disparate scripture verses as you can).
Who is it around here who has that great quote in their signature: “Until you become an unbeliever in your own self, you cannot become a believer in God”?
That is great advice.
Who is it around here who has that great quote in their signature: “Until you become an unbeliever in your own self, you cannot become a believer in God”?
That is great advice.
S
simplynoone
Guest
The only place that I saw a question asked about the word FULFILLED
I was asked what it meant. I did not see the point of giving an adult the answer to something that is easily found within the pages of a dictionary and I still do not. I know the definition and am surprised that you would not.I suspect you are anxious to say that Jesus fulfilled the Law for the whole of mankind. Am I correct? If this is the case, then it is your burden of proof to show where he said mankind when he said that he came not to abolish the Law, but to fufill the Law. I am not one that places that insertion there.
However, I will give you a deeper clue as to what it is Jesus meant by that declaration and it is found not only in Jeremiah 31, but Romans 11 is quite telling indeed… especially in light of the whole of the Tanakh.
Now, I would like to know how it is you view Romans 11, if you do not mind.
Do you have actual documentations in accordance with Jesus guidelines (the Scriptures that existed at that time) that declare him to be the only son of God? or even the son of God?
Maybe you will show more confidence than your friends have and find the courage to post up for me who it is (only the declaration… no insertions) that God declares as His son in both Hosea 11:1 and Exodus 4:22,23. I am unsure why this is so hard to do since it is pretty clear cut.
S
simplynoone
Guest
A simple study of the Son of Man in the context of the declared and Sealed Word of God (in which Jesus confirmed to be Truth) and who He really is and then a corresponding study of who it was the Son of Man was sold to should clear up the confusion as to why we would dare question and use our minds to search (prov 2: 1-7) these things out.
- Status