Paul Did NOT See Peter as Head of the Church

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What is the point of Christ bothering to become incarnate and form a human community???
The problem becomes when one community claims infallibility ,even over another. When one community claims rule over all other sources of truth, be it scripture,tradition magisterium, infallibly…The key word is infallible , or as Myst posts, “unimpeachably correct”.

Perhaps a bit like we see now thru a glass darkly, or let every man be a liar, only God is true.

Finally, every man must account for himself before God and you can not get away from personal revelation on a matter, working it out in fear and trembling in answering the question (and others) , “who do you say that I am ?”.
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Men do indeed tell us who God is, because God’s fullest revelation of his very self is through the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.
Not sure how it ties in to Incarnation, but yes, “for God so chose that by the foolishness of preaching should men be saved”, and by hearing by the word of God, and salvation was of the Jews then and thru the Church now…This is universal. What is not is what is the church, or what is salvation, what is the word? etc… You can not escape what do you say?
 
So… Is this about what Paul say or didn’t say about Peter… Or is it about ganging up on Mystophilus and what he believes or doesn’t believe?

🍿
 
So let me get this straight: you believe that your priests, somehow, were given a charism by God to confect the Eucharist, but it has nothing to do with the laying of hands on them?
From one of my other comments, in this ridiculously-long, unbelievably-complicated, and far-too-me-centred thread:
"you asked me about my view, and my view is that, of any such metaphysical power, God is the source, hence the imposition of hands and the invocation of the Holy Spirit in the rite of ordination.

Still, one of the things which it might be useful to recognise is that there are differences between Catholic and Anglican views of priesthood. If I recall correctly, ours are not permitted to celebrate the Eucharist when they are alone. The charism thus resides not in the person alone, but in the performance of the office."

Since that charism is for the performance of the sacrament, it may only obtain during the sacrament, but there we run back into that “cannot test metaphysics” issue.

I really need to read up on all this, though, and the discussion has made me more curious about Anglican theology than I have ever been before.
 
So let me get this straight: you believe that your priests, somehow, were given a charism by God to confect the Eucharist, but it has nothing to do with the laying of hands on them?

They just received it…somehow, mysteriously, at their ordination?
BTW, there is a very helpful paper from the bishops of the CofE here. It not only addresses Anglican Eucharistic theology, but specifically details the points of agreement and disagreement between Anglican and Catholic Eucharistic theologies. As such, it should give you a better view of Anglican belief than a poor sample of one shall.
 
The problem becomes when one community claims infallibility ,even over another. When one community claims rule over all other sources of truth, be it scripture,tradition magisterium, infallibly…The key word is infallible , or as Myst posts, “unimpeachably correct”.

Perhaps a bit like we see now thru a glass darkly, or let every man be a liar, only God is true.

Finally, every man must account for himself before God and you can not get away from personal revelation on a matter, working it out in fear and trembling in answering the question (and others) , “who do you say that I am ?”.
.Not sure how it ties in to Incarnation, but yes, “for God so chose that by the foolishness of preaching should men be saved”, and by hearing by the word of God, and salvation was of the Jews then and thru the Church now…This is universal. What is not is what is the church, or what is salvation, what is the word? etc… You can not escape what do you say?
Interesting you would choose that passage.
Let’s place the emphasis on that passage where it should be
Who do you say that I am?
What “you say” must be in context of who “I am”.
And please note the setting of this question. This question is posed to the community, not to individuals in an exclusively personal sense. He is not asking Peter for his individualist expression of who Jesus is. When Jesus asks for “your” affirmation of faith, he is addressing the small community of disciples. This becomes the setting for Christ’s appeal to authoritative expression of truth.

When Peter takes Christ aside to rebuke him with his private understanding, Christ rebukes him while gazing on the community!
And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. *33But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter *and said, “Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s
Who is the “I Am” of Jesus’ question?
He is the way, the truth, the life. He is the source of a community. Christ asks Peter to give truthful expression to His person, but only in the context of His community, not his personal ramblings.

We cannot know who Christ is outside his Mystical Body. (this is not a mandate to be explicitly Catholic, but an observation that Christ acts through His Body, by definition of his Incarnation).
Christ reveals himself incarnate, in the flesh. To become flesh is to become part of the human community. Christ becoming part of the human community propels us toward unity even while we are scattered.
“That they all be one”
All authority must be seen in this context, and this is the way he Catholic Church sees it. Authority is not a rigid and literalist claim to arbitrary human whim, or the exercise of master/slave contracts, or an individualist wielding of earthly power. Authority is servant leadership modeled on the life of Christ, who,
although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Authority is a charism based in the Incarnation of Christ, who becomes one of us to form a community out of disparate parts. The Incarnation is God’s fullest revelation of himself to us. Authority is exercised in the context of His Body which accepts this unique charism as his grace, not the yoke of slavery.
 
Did you miss the part which says, “with the constant certainty that I am wrong much of the time”?
I don’t see how that changes anything.

You happen to have a God who agrees with you on every moral issue.

That doesn’t sound consonant with reality. 🤷

If God exists, then by His very Nature, He’s going to have some thoughts and ideas which are different from ours.

And, as such, we ought to conform our views to what God has said. Not re-create a god whose ideas conform to ours.
 
From one of my other comments, in this ridiculously-long, unbelievably-complicated, and far-too-me-centred thread:
"you asked me about my view, and my view is that, of any such metaphysical power, God is the source, hence the imposition of hands and the invocation of the Holy Spirit in the rite of ordination.
So what gives someone the authority to impose hands and invoke the HS and ordain?

Could I do that to my child right now, according to your theology?
 
BTW, there is a very helpful paper from the bishops of the CofE here. It not only addresses Anglican Eucharistic theology, but specifically details the points of agreement and disagreement between Anglican and Catholic Eucharistic theologies. As such, it should give you a better view of Anglican belief than a poor sample of one shall.
Well, since you have said yourself that you don’t really follow everything the Anglican church teaches, I’m not that interested in reading about Anglicanism which may not even represent your theology.

I’m more interested in your views, which may or may not be in union with Anglican theology.
 
So what gives someone the authority to impose hands and invoke the HS and ordain?

Could I do that to my child right now, according to your theology?
Sort of like saying, “My bishop has authority because I say she does.”

Now, that IS one way that authority is conveyed - through the will of those over whom that authority exists.

However, Christians have, historically, looked to God for guidance as to who He designated as the proper authority over His people.
 
How do you know what God revealed…except by following men who told you what God revealed?
  1. The transmission of the faith not only brings light to men and women in every place; it travels through time, passing from one generation to another. Because faith is born of **an encounter which takes place in history **(The Incarnation) and lights up our journey through time, it must be passed on in every age. It is through an **unbroken chain of witnesses **that we come to see the face of Jesus. But how is this possible? How can we be certain, after all these centuries, that we have encountered the “real Jesus”? Were we merely isolated individuals, were our starting point simply our own individual ego seeking in itself the basis of absolutely sure knowledge, a certainty of this sort would be impossible. I cannot possibly verify for myself something which happened so long ago. But this is not the only way we attain knowledge. Persons always live in relationship. We come from others, we belong to others, and our lives are enlarged by our encounter with others. Even our own knowledge and self-awareness are relational; they are linked to others who have gone before us: in the first place, our parents, who gave us our life and our name. Language itself, the words by which we make sense of our lives and the world around us, comes to us from others, preserved in the living memory of others. Self-knowledge is only possible when we share in a greater memory. The same thing holds true for faith, which brings human understanding to its fullness. Faith’s past, that act of Jesus’ love which brought new life to the world, comes down to us through the memory of others — witnesses — and is kept alive in that one remembering subject which is the Church. The Church is a Mother who teaches us to speak the language of faith. Saint John brings this out in his Gospel by closely uniting faith and memory and associating both with the working of the Holy Spirit, who, as Jesus says, “will remind you of all that I have said to you” (Jn 14:26). The love which is the Holy Spirit and which dwells in the Church unites every age and makes us contemporaries of Jesus (the Word Incarnate), thus guiding us along our pilgrimage of faith.
  2. It is impossible to believe on our own. Faith is not simply an individual decision which takes place in the depths of the believer’s heart, nor a completely private relationship between the “I” of the believer and the divine “Thou”, between an autonomous subject and God. By its very nature, faith is open to the “We” of the Church; it always takes place within her communion.
w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20130629_enciclica-lumen-fidei.html
 
Jesus renamed Simon Bar Jona = Peter= Rock= Cephas and gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven singularly in the presence of all the original apostles.

Paul is known and recorded in the scriptures as acknowledging the name Christ gave to Simon Peter, when Paul addresses Peter as Cephas = Rock.

Paul see’s Peter as the Rock of which Jesus builds His Church upon. Sure the gates of hell will come against it, and it did, when Peter denied Jesus three times, but they have never prevailed over the Church Jesus builds upon Peter.

All of the historical Church’s evangelized by the original apostles have all fallen in and out of heresy and have succumbed to the gates of hell except one, the Church Jesus builds upon Peter in the Roman Catholic church under the unbroken apostolic succession of Peter in the bishop’s of Rome, where both Peter and Paul’s bones remained since their Christian martyrdom.

Jesus commissioned Paul to the Gentiles. Jesus builds His Church upon Peter before Jesus passion and death and commissioned Peter to tend and feed His flock ( in the presence of the apostles minus Judas) after the resurrection, until Jesus returns.

Paul follows and confirms Peter’s faith statement before the first Church council recorded in Acts with signs and wonders. Paul publicly proves Peter is the head of the Church for all to listen and follow when it is Peter when all the whole Church falls silent when and after Peter speaks.

Jesus revealed Himself to Paul and commissioned Paul unto the Gentiles, but it was Peter who was given the divine heavenly vision from the Father who Jesus is and the divine authority to allow the Gentiles into the Church. Paul see’s Cephas as the one the Father chose for Jesus to begin building His Church upon Peter.
 
I don’t see how that changes anything.

You happen to have a God who agrees with you on every moral issue.
That conclusion does not logically follow from those premisses.

If I believe that I am wrong much of the time, as already stated, then I would only believe that God agrees with me on every moral issue (a claim which I have never made) if I believed that God were also wrong much of the time.
 
Well, since you have said yourself that you don’t really follow everything the Anglican church teaches, I’m not that interested in reading about Anglicanism which may not even represent your theology.

I’m more interested in your views, which may or may not be in union with Anglican theology.
First, “I do not follow everything” does not mean “I follow nothing”.

Second, if I imagined that your interest extended beyond an interrogation, I might be inclined to discuss this further.
 
First, “I do not follow everything” does not mean “I follow nothing”.
So this is an area where you agree with Anglicanism?

How am I to know when you are in conformity with Anglicanism?
Second, if I imagined that your interest extended beyond an interrogation, I might be inclined to discuss this further.
It is against forum rules to doubt the sincerity of a member’s posts, Mystophilus.

Just a FYI.

Not to mention, the Christian thing to do is to see me in the best light.

So please just assume that my interest in your opinion is genuine, and you can proceed to answer my questions, and I will answer your questions, and we will do what folks here have been doing for a long time. 🙂
 
That conclusion does not logically follow from those premisses.
Actually, it does.
If I believe that I am wrong much of the time, as already stated, then I would only believe that God agrees with me on every moral issue (a claim which I have never made) if I believed that God were also wrong much of the time.
If you can’t name a single belief that you have changed because that’s what God said, despite your own preferences, then, logically, the conclusion is that you have a god who believes everything that you happen to prefer.

And does that sound reasonable? You* think homosexuality is fine. God happens to think homosexuality is fine. You think premarital sex is fine. God happens to think premarital sex is fine. You think abortion is fine. God happens to think abortion is fine. You think Peter was simply another apostle. God thinks Peter was simply another apostle. You think Peter wasn’t the Head. God thinks Peter wasn’t the Head.

I think that God is going to demand that we change our views on some things. That’s what the Scriptures say. And that’s what common sense tells us, as well.

*You: rhetorical you. Not necessarily a personal You.
 
If you can’t name a single belief that you have changed because that’s what God said, despite your own preferences, then, logically, the conclusion is that you have a god who believes everything that you happen to prefer.
And that’s what we call the fallacy of the excluded middle.

If I couldn’t name a belief which I had changed to conform with God’s view, that could mean a/ that God agrees with everything I think, or b/ that I know that God disagrees, but I continue to believe what I believe, or c/ that I do not know what God thinks.

Ignoring b/ and c/ in order to presume a/ is illogical. Ignoring b/ and c/ to presume a/ when I have already stated that I believe myself to be wrong much of the time either ignores that previous statement or presumes that I believe God to be wrong much of the time. As a final comment, I will note that the last presumption would be inaccurate.
 
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