Paul Did NOT See Peter as Head of the Church

[clem456]

Who’s the leader?

I’m the leader!

No, I’m the leader!

No, I’m the leader!

Follow me I’m the leader!

Who’s the leader?

Tag, you are it.

Run!!!

A cause for hope!
You express a consensus that there is, or at least should be, a leader.
Recognizing that God gives people unique charisms is a great thing. Certainly better than saying “we’re all the same”.
It seems to be key for the recognition of human dignity, that each human being is gifted in a unique way. Christ being the prime example, and his mother is uniquely and wonderfully gifted as well. That giftedness extends to all of us in unique ways.

Tag, you are it, cause I’m not given the charism of leadership.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

A cause for hope!
You express a consensus that there is, or at least should be, a leader.
Recognizing that God gives people unique charisms is a great thing. Certainly better than saying “we’re all the same”.
It seems to be key for the recognition of human dignity, that each human being is gifted in a unique way. Christ being the prime example, and his mother is uniquely and wonderfully gifted as well. That giftedness extends to all of us in unique ways.

Tag, you are it, cause I’m not given the charism of leadership.

Smile, Jesus loves you. And you cannot catch me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Luke 22:24-26 – Who is the Greatest?

Luke 22:24-32
24 a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 26 the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules (hegeomai) like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you (plural) as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you (singular), Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen (sterizo) your brothers.”

Hegeomai (Jesus is referring to Simon)

1. to lead
   a) to go before
   b) to be a leader
2. to rule, command
3. to have authority over
4. a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches
5. used of any kind of leader, chief, commander
6. the leader in speech, chief, spokesman
7. to consider, deem, account, think

Sterizo

1. to make stable, place firmly, set fast, fix
2. to strengthen, make firm
3. to render constant, confirm, one’s mind

Who was Jesus referring to? Did Jesus say one of them would NOT be considered greatest? NO. Did He say one would NOT (hegiomai) be the one to lead/have authority over/ rule? No, He confirmed that one would (hegeomai).

Notice the language? Peter is to lead, rule, command, have authority over the others, govern, and control in counsels… make stable his brothers, strengthen them, and confirm them…and be the chief spokesman

Originally posted by steve b

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Luke 22:24-26 – Who is the Greatest?

Luke 22:24-32
24 a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 26 the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules (hegeomai) like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you (plural) as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you (singular), Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen (sterizo) your brothers.”

Hegeomai (Jesus is referring to Simon)

1. to lead
   a) to go before
   b) to be a leader
2. to rule, command
3. to have authority over
4. a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches
5. used of any kind of leader, chief, commander
6. the leader in speech, chief, spokesman
7. to consider, deem, account, think

Sterizo

1. to make stable, place firmly, set fast, fix
2. to strengthen, make firm
3. to render constant, confirm, one’s mind

Who was Jesus referring to? Did Jesus say one of them would NOT be considered greatest? NO. Did He say one would NOT (hegiomai) be the one to lead/have authority over/ rule? No, He confirmed that one would (hegeomai).

Notice the language? Peter is to lead, rule, command, have authority over the others, govern, and control in counsels… make stable his brothers, strengthen them, and confirm them…and be the chief spokesman

Originally posted by steve b

Bro’

If you are posting from stevie b, your formatting should be better

 

[benhur]

Who’s the leader?

I’m the leader!

No, I’m the leader!

No, I’m the leader!

Follow me I’m the leader!

Who’s the leader?

Tag, you are it.

Run!!!

…of the Club ?

Mickey Mouse

Donald Duck

Mickey Mouse

 

[benhur]

A cause for hope!
You express a consensus that there is, or at least should be, a leader.

Well, when I was a child…and when I became a man , I put away childish things…

Recognizing that God gives people unique charisms is a great thing. Certainly better than saying “we’re all the same”.

Quite an" either/ or" and not both/and.

It seems to be key for the recognition of human dignity, that each human being is gifted in a unique way

I agree, there is a man for all seasons, much more so than an “office”. An Assisi , a Theresa, etc…

 

[Jon_S_1]

One word , conditional. He could walk upon water, then sink like a rock . He could proclaim the divinest of revelations then say the most carnal thing. You love him when he was a right on “rock”, and when he exercised the keys rightly.

Can you give an example of when he failed to exercise the keys properly?

Note the keys do not imply perfection, but authority to settle disputes…bind and loose…complete the steps found in Matt 18.

In a word settle doctrinal dispute.

Perhaps he erred when he wrote his epistles…

 

[Jon_S_1]

Right, why would Jesus need a royal steward whilst with us ?

Then why should His equal in the Godhead as you point out ,The Holy Spirit, need one whilst with us ?

This begs the question.

Why should God need anything? Why a world, why men, why death on a cross?

It’s not that he needs anything, it’s that he chooses to do so. He chooses to engage his creation and work with us and use us to further his kingdom.

Jesus needed a steward while with us because he knew he would leave us. He clearly articulated this throughout the gospels and he chose Peter to lead after he was gone.

The Holy Spirit leads the church and guides the church, but unfortunately men are easily deceived by their own self and claim it’s the spirit.

For this reason the church needs leadership that the spirit PROTECTS from teaching error and the SPIRIT helps guard the truth.

 

[Jon_S_1]

OK. But as Tommy points out Christ qualifies this. It will not be as lording over, or as the world knows visible hieirarchy, or even as Israel knew it.
Well, the Rock is in reference to building upon, not heading/hierarchy. The keys is in the leading by example.

Tell me, once a door is open, do you need the keys anymore, especially if no man can shut the door(s) ?

How many of those theologians agree with Tertullian, that the keys stopped with Peter ?

How many see in those passages the “modern” day papacy ?

Why can’t the door be closed?

The keys are like keys for the city gate. The doors are locked when danger is near and opened to let the friends in. Such keys would be used quite a bit.

When the danger of heresy brews. The keys lock out such errors.

When telling the faithful the truth given by Christ and passing on salvation they are used to open the path of salvation up to people.

Others may claim another way in or may even claim that damnation lies in the city and its better outside…but that doesn’t make it so.

 

[Tomyris]

Luke 22:24-26 – Who is the Greatest?

Luke 22:24-32
24 a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 26 the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules (hegeomai) like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you (plural) as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you (singular), Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen (sterizo) your brothers.”

Hegeomai (Jesus is referring to Simon)

If so, it is only in rebuke. Clearly he was one who was loudly proclaiming he was the greatest.

You cannot claim from this that Peter was the leader.

1. to lead
   a) to go before
   b) to be a leader
2. to rule, command
3. to have authority over
4. a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches
5. used of any kind of leader, chief, commander
6. the leader in speech, chief, spokesman
7. to consider, deem, account, think

Sterizo

1. to make stable, place firmly, set fast, fix
2. to strengthen, make firm
3. to render constant, confirm, one’s mind

Who was Jesus referring to? Did Jesus say one of them would NOT be considered greatest? NO. Did He say one would NOT (hegiomai) be the one to lead/have authority over/ rule? No, He confirmed that one would (hegeomai).

Argument from silence. Did he say one would? No. He rebuked them for this attitude.
Notice the language? Peter is to lead, rule, command, have authority over the others, govern, and control in counsels…I don’t see any way you can legitimately draw this from this passage.

… make stable his brothers, strengthen them, and confirm them…and be the chief spokesman

Originally posted by steve b

And today Rome, Moscow and Constantinople are STILL at the “who’s the greatest” game. Some evangelicals join in. Everyone wants their guy to be the one who is in with God more than anyone else. It gives their spiritual pride a thrill to think that they follow the Right One on Earth. It is of the flesh and Jesus utterly rebuked it.

Unfortunately you cannot see it.

 

[Tomyris]

This begs the question.

Why should God need anything? Why a world, why men, why death on a cross?

It’s not that he needs anything, it’s that he chooses to do so. He chooses to engage his creation and work with us and use us to further his kingdom.

I like this part.

Jesus needed a steward while with us because he knew he would leave us.

Does not follow…You just said God does not need anything, now you say he does. He sent the Holy Spirit.

He clearly articulated this throughout the gospels and he chose Peter to lead after he was gone.

Not Peter. Apostolic authority. More than one apostle. Unfortunately they set the example of arguing with each other about who is the greatest and the church is still doing it TODAY. Paul rebuked the church at Corinth for this.

The Holy Spirit leads the church and guides the church,

yes, and he uses people.

but unfortunately men are easily deceived by their own self and claim it’s the spirit.

They do. Consider that this can cut both ways. It is only your personal interpretation by which you conclude that Peter was Supreme Leader.

For this reason the church needs leadership that the spirit PROTECTS from teaching error and the SPIRIT helps guard the truth.

But you do not know what form that protection may take or how he guards the truth. You could equally say Jim Jones or the Pope is the Chosen Vessel by that argument. Or Daffy Duck.

 

[Tomyris]

Originally posted by steve b

Who is steve b?

Thank you for giving credit for one of your sources.

Oh, did you do all that research for your Protestant Pope Pals list, or did you crib that somewhere, without attestation? In the first case I would congratulate you for your diligent research, in the second castigate you for plagiarism and fraudulently representing it as your own work. Which is it?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Who is steve b?

High Petrine Formatting Master of CAF! Really cool dude

 

[Tomyris]

High Petrine Formatting Master of CAF! Really cool dude

Awesome job title!

Maybe…He is the ONE??

 

[benhur]

And today Rome, Moscow and Constantinople are STILL at the “who’s the greatest” game. Some evangelicals join in. Everyone wants their guy to be the one who is in with God more than anyone else. It gives their spiritual pride a thrill to think that they follow the Right One on Earth. It is of the flesh and Jesus utterly rebuked it.

As Paul rebuked the corinthians also,tongue in cheek, saying I believe you do have factions,to show which is right.

 

[KathleenGee]

Who is the greatest? Christ.

His Church gives us the greatest fullness of Christ…it is not about us. It is about Christ.

If people would get off the competition and put downs, and study the fullness of what it means to be Catholic…it is awesome…it may help those who cannot but help to go back to the source and how our fullness of faith came about.

If it is all about one upmanship, then yes, it is very difficult to even understand the full deposit of faith of Christ through the Church, as well as acknowledge Sacred Scripture, the apparent primacy of Peter in the over 180 references to him in contrast to the other apostles…as well as highly knowledgeable and learned Protestant theologians who affirm the Church’s claim to Peter. They likewise could not accept the Church either in spite of their affirmation. So…then what else can one say???

It didn’t come from men or individual leaders, but the working of God through man, through those He has chosen to build His kingdom.

One must pray to seek the Truth…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Clearly he was one who was loudly proclaiming he was the greatest.

Could you quote the actual verse which indicates that Peter was proclaiming himself to be the greatest of the Apostles?

Thanks.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You cannot claim from this that Peter was the leader. Argument from silence. Did he say one would?

Yes.

Luke 22
25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.

Jesus specifically describes the character of those who WOULD be the greatest among them. He never claims that NO ONE would be great. This is a necessary lesson for all of the Apostles, because Jesus goes one to say:

Luke 22
29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So, here we see that the Apostles will sit on thrones judging other people. I’m not sure about how things are run where you come from, but in most places, it is the greater who judge the lesser and not the other way around.

So, the apostles:

1. will sit on thrones,
2. will judge others,
3. will need to do so humbly.

These are the ones who are the “greatest” in the kingdom of God.

Having established that some are greater than others, we would then draw on other verses to demonstrate that Peter was chosen to be the “greatest” of them all.

 

[Tomyris]

Could you quote the actual verse which indicates that Peter was proclaiming himself to be the greatest of the Apostles?

Thanks.

Context, Randy, context.

Now, please answer Post #251.

Oh, did you do all that research for your Protestant Pope Pals list, or did you crib that somewhere, without attestation? In the first case I would congratulate you for your diligent research, in the second castigate you for plagiarism and fraudulently representing it as your own work. Which is it?

 

[Tomyris]

Yes.

Luke 22
25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.

Jesus specifically describes the character of those who WOULD be the greatest among them. He never claims that NO ONE would be great.

He never claimed anyone would be greater, either. This is an argument from silence.

This is a necessary lesson for all of the Apostles, because Jesus goes one to say:

Luke 22
29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So, here we see that the Apostles will sit on thrones judging other people. I’m not sure about how things are run where you come from, but in most places, it is the greater who judge the lesser and not the other way around.

So, the apostles:

1. will sit on thrones,
2. will judge others,
3. will need to do so humbly.

These are the ones who are the “greatest” in the kingdom of God.

Having established that some are greater than others, we would then draw on other verses to demonstrate that Peter was chosen to be the “greatest” of them all.

‘you’ in the passage is the apostles - this is a dispute between the disciples. They were continually arguing about who is the greatest. Instead of saying ‘Peter’, Jesus gave them this lecture repeatedly. They were still arguing about who was the greatest among them - and Jesus was saying none of them and they were not to think that way.

This is something that was carried into the church, with the rise of bishops and archbishops and patriarchs, all powerful positions that entice the power-hungry and ambitious. Historically we see how this has corrupted the church, and now Rome, Moscow and Istanbul are still arguing about “who is the greatest”.

From a Reformed perspective, bishops and popes have been a disaster for the church. A presbyterian structure would have guarded the church from men who were more interested in their own stature, position and wealth, and followers who wanted their own see advanced beyond that of others, and the development of factionalism and envy.

Paul (subject of the thread, by the way) would have none of it in 1 Cor 1. He went so far as to be grateful that he had baptized none of them.