Paul did not use the Septuagint nor did Jesus or any of His apostles

[Jaguar]

Here is a response from a Protestant friend. Will someone help me with a response for him.

No paul did not use the septuagint nor did Jesus or any of His apostles, for the following reasons:

Jesus spoke of the jots and tittles of the Old Testament (Mat. 5:18), and this refers specifically and solely to the Hebrew language. the ST is in Greek.

Jesus referred to the Old Testament by its Hebrew division rather than by its Greek division. Following are two evidences:

In Luke 24:44 He referred to the things “which were written in THE LAW of Moses, and in THE PROPHETS, and in THE PSALMS, concerning me.” This is precisely the order of the Old Testament in Hebrew, but in the Greek Old Testament the order is the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets, as in the English Bible.

When Jesus referred to the first and last prophets that were martyred in the Old Testament, He referred to them by the order of the Hebrew Text rather than by the order of the Greek Septuagint. “That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar” (Mat. 23:35). By this statement, the Lord Jesus charged the Jewish leaders with the deaths of the prophets throughout the Old Testament age, and He used the Hebrew canon. Abel was killed in Genesis (chapter 4) and Zacharias in 2 Chronicles (24:20-22). This follows the order of the Hebrew Old Testament, which begins with Genesis and ends with 2 Chronicles, as does the English. The Greek Septuagint, on the other hand, ends with the prophets (concluding with Malachi) and with some apocryphal books.

And, orthodox Jews did not accept the deuterocanonicals as scripture and they are not quoted from in the NT while evry other book is.

Thank you.

 

[Christy_Beth]

First off, Jesus spoke hebrew and not greek. So comparing the greek version to the hebrew one, IMO, is a nonissue. Why compare two the two languages? If we had the original texts, we would find that hebrew as the main language. Some greek may have been used, and I think that it was only well after most of the gospels and letters were written down and saved. I think that in the book of Luke and the book of Acts, the original language was greek, but not the others.

 

[ziapueblo]

During the time of Christ and the Apostolic Church the Jews did not even have a canonical list of Scriptures.

The Sadducees regarded only the first five books of the Old Testament to be inspired. This is seen in the Gospel of Matthew 22:23-33 when they, the Sadducess, argued with Jesus against the resurrection. They could not see it in the five books of Moses because the later Scriptures which spoke of the resurrection, such as Isaiah and 2 Maccabee, were not believed to be inspired and canonical.

The Pharisees held to a canon resembling the modern Jewish canon, one far larger than that of the Sadducees but not as large as other Jewish collections of Scripture.

The rest, and majority, of the Jews at the time used the Septuagint. The Septuagint, which include the Deuterocanonical Books, is the Greek translation of the Hebrew text used by the Pharisees. This translation was used because at the time of Christ Hebrew was a dead language. The spoken language of time was Aramaic, which is what our Lord and the Apostles spoke (many references in the New Testament), and if anyone could read they read in Greek.

300 or so of the 350 some quotes of Old Testament quotations that are in the New Testament come from the Septuagint. Thats about 90%!

 

[NotWorthy]

Why don’t you just go to the Scriptures. You’ll see that Paul use the Septuagint translation of the Scriptures way more often than the Hebrew.

And it makes sense. If I wish to quote Scripture today, wouldn’t I go to an approved English translation or do I go back to the original Greek and re-translate it. Yes, it could be done, but its only rarely done.

 

[NotWorthy]

And, orthodox Jews did not accept the deuterocanonicals as scripture and they are not quoted from in the NT while evry other book is.

Thank you.

This is interesting.

Pharisees accepted the Septuagints Canon.
Sadducee’s accepted only the Torah.

I would consider the Pharisees far more orthodox than the Sadducee’s.

 

[peary]

First off, Jesus spoke hebrew and not greek. So comparing the greek version to the hebrew one, IMO, is a nonissue. Why compare two the two languages? If we had the original texts, we would find that hebrew as the main language. Some greek may have been used, and I think that it was only well after most of the gospels and letters were written down and saved. I think that in the book of Luke and the book of Acts, the original language was greek, but not the others.

**Jesus spoke ARAMAIC. Hebrew was a dead language and was only spoken by rabbis in a synagogue. It is also possible (and probable) that Jesus spoke Greek. **

 

[peary]

Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of canon of the Old Testament. Here are some examples:

Matt. 1:23 / Isaiah 7:14 - behold, a “virgin” shall conceive. Hebrew - behold, a “young woman” shall conceive.

Matt. 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23 / Isaiah 40:3 - make “His paths straight.” Hebrew - make “level in the desert a highway.”

Matt. 9:13; 12:7 / Hosea 6:6 - I desire “mercy” and not sacrifice. Hebrew - I desire “goodness” and not sacrifice.

Matt. 12:21 / Isaiah 42:4 - in His name will the Gentiles hope (or trust). Hebrew - the isles shall wait for his law.

Matt. 13:15 / Isaiah 6:10 - heart grown dull; eyes have closed; to heal. Hebrew - heart is fat; ears are heavy; eyes are shut; be healed.

Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7 / Isaiah 29:13 - teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Hebrew - a commandment of men (not doctrines).

Matt. 21:16 / Psalm 8:2 - out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has “perfect praise.” Hebrew - thou has “established strength.”

Mark 7:6-8 – Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13 from the Septuagint – “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”

Luke 3:5-6 / Isaiah 40:4-5 - crooked be made straight, rough ways smooth, shall see salvation. Hebrew - omits these phrases.

Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 61:1 - and recovering of sight to the blind. Hebrew - the opening of prison to them that are bound.

Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 58:6 - to set at liberty those that are oppressed (or bruised). Hebrew - to let the oppressed go free.

John 6:31 / Psalm 78:24 - He gave them “bread” out of heaven to eat. Hebrew - gave them “food” or “grain” from heaven.

John 12:38 / Isaiah 53:1 - who has believed our “report?” Hebrew - who has believed our “message?”

John 12:40 / Isaiah 6:10 - lest they should see with eyes…turn for me to heal them. Hebrew - shut their eyes…and be healed.

Acts 2:19 / Joel 2:30 - blood and fire and “vapor” of smoke. Hebrew - blood and fire and “pillars” or “columns” of smoke.

Acts 2:25-26 / Psalm 16:8 - I saw…tongue rejoiced…dwell in hope… Hebrew - I have set…glory rejoiced…dwell in safety.

Acts 4:26 / Psalm 2:1 - the rulers “were gathered together.” Hebrew - rulers “take counsel together.”

Acts 7:14 / Gen. 46:27; Deut. 10:22 - Stephen says “seventy-five” souls went down to Egypt. Hebrew - “seventy” people went.

Acts 7:27-28 / Exodus 2:14 - uses “ruler” and judge; killed the Egyptian “yesterday.” Hebrew - uses “prince” and there is no reference to “yesterday.”

Acts 7:43 / Amos 5:26-27 - the tent of “Moloch” and star of god of Rephan. Hebrew - “your king,” shrine, and star of your god.

Acts 8:33 / Isaiah 53:7-8 - in his humiliation justice was denied him. Hebrew - by oppression…he was taken away.

Acts 13:41 / Habakkuk 1:5 - you “scoffers” and wonder and “perish.” Hebrew - you “among the nations,” and “be astounded.”

Acts 15:17 / Amos 9:12 - the rest (or remnant) of “men.” Hebrew - the remnant of “Edom.”

Rom. 2:24 / Isaiah 52:5 - the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles. Hebrew - blasphemed (there is no mention of the Gentiles).

Rom. 3:4 / Psalm 51:4 - thou mayest “prevail” (or overcome) when thou art judged. Hebrew - thou might “be clear” when thou judges.

Rom. 3:12 / Psalm 14:1,3 - they “have gone wrong.” Hebrew - they are “corrupt” or “filthy.”

Rom. 3:13 / Psalm 5:9 - they use their tongues to deceive. Hebrew - they flatter with their tongues. There is no “deceit” language.

Rom. 3:13 / Psalm 140:3 - the venom of “asps” is under their lips. Hebrew - “Adder’s” poison is under their lips.

Rom. 3:14 / Psalm 10:7 - whose mouth is full of curses and “bitterness.” Hebrew - cursing and “deceit and oppression.”

Rom. 9:17 / Exodus 9:16 - my power “in you”; my name may be “proclaimed.” Hebrew - show “thee”; may name might be “declared.”

Rom. 9:25 / Hosea 2:23 - I will call my people; I will call my beloved. Hebrew - I will have mercy (love versus mercy).

Rom. 9:27 / Isaiah 10:22 - only a remnant of them “will be saved.” Hebrew - only a remnant of them “will return.”

Rom. 9:29 / Isaiah 1:9 - had not left us “children.” Hebrew - Jehova had left us a “very small remnant.”

Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 Peter 2:6 / Isaiah 28:16 - he who believes will not be “put to shame.” Hebrew - shall not be “in haste.”

Rom. 10:18 / Psalm 19:4 - their “voice” has gone out. Hebrew - their “line” is gone out.

Rom. 10:20 / Isaiah 65:1 - I have “shown myself” to those who did not ask for me. Hebrew - I am “inquired of” by them.

Rom. 10:21 / Isaiah 65:2 - a “disobedient and contrary” people. Hebrew - a “rebellious” people.

Rom. 11:9-10 / Psalm 69:22-23 - “pitfall” and “retribution” and “bend their backs.” Hebrew - “trap” and “make their loins shake.”

Rom. 11:26 / Isaiah 59:20 - will banish “ungodliness.” Hebrew - turn from “transgression.”

Rom. 11:27 / Isaiah 27:9 - when I take away their sins. Hebrew - this is all the fruit of taking away his sin.

Rom. 11:34; 1 Cor. 2:16 / Isaiah 40:13 -the “mind” of the Lord; His “counselor.” Hebrew - “spirit” of the Lord; “taught” Him.

Rom. 12:20 / Prov. 25:21 - feed him and give him to drink. Hebrew - give him “bread” to eat and “water” to drink.

Rom. 15:12 / Isaiah 11:10 - the root of Jesse…“to rule the Gentiles.” Hebrew - stands for an ensign. There is nothing about the Gentiles.

Rom. 15:21 / Isaiah 52:15 - been told “of him”; heard “of him.” Hebrew - does not mention “him” (the object of the prophecy).

1 Cor. 1:19 / Isaiah 29:14 - “I will destroy” the wisdom of the wise. Hebrew - wisdom of their wise men “shall perish.”

1 Cor. 5:13 / Deut. 17:7 - remove the “wicked person.” Hebrew - purge the “evil.” This is more generic evil in the MT.

1 Cor. 15:55 / Hosea 13:14 - O death, where is thy “sting?” Hebrew - O death, where are your “plagues?”

2 Cor. 4:13 / Psalm 116:10 - I believed and so I spoke (past tense). Hebrew - I believe, for I will speak (future tense).

2 Cor. 6:2 / Isaiah 49:8 - I have “listened” to you. Hebrew - I have “answered” you.

Gal. 3:10 / Deut. 27:26 - cursed be every one who does not “abide” by all things. Hebrew - does not “confirm” the words.

Gal. 3:13 / Deut. 21:23 - cursed is everyone who hangs on a “tree.” Hebrew - a hanged man is accursed. The word “tree” does not follow.

Gal. 4:27 / Isaiah 54:1 - “rejoice” and “break forth and shout.” Hebrew - “sing” and “break forth into singing.”

2 Tim. 2:19 / Num. 16:5 - The Lord “knows” those who are His. Hebrew - God will “show” who are His.

Heb. 1:6 / Deut. 32:43 - let all the angels of God worship Him. Hebrew - the Masoretic text omits this phrase from Deut. 32:43.

Heb. 1:12 / Psalm 102:25 - like a “mantle” … “roll them”… “will be changed.” Hebrew - “raiment”… “change”…“pass away.”

Heb. 2:7 / Psalm 8:5 - thou has made Him a little “lower than angels.” Hebrew - made Him but a little “lower than God.”

Heb. 2:12 / Psalm 22:22 - I will " sing" thy praise. Hebrew - I will praise thee. The LXX and most NTs (but not the RSV) have “sing.”

Heb. 2:13 / Isaiah 8:17 - I will “put my trust in Him.” Hebrew - I will “look for Him.”

Heb. 3:15 / Psalm 95:8 - do not harden your hearts as “in the rebellion.” Hebrew - harden not your hearts “as at Meribah.”

Heb. 3:15; 4:7 / Psalm 95:7 - when you hear His voice do not harden not your hearts. Hebrew - oh that you would hear His voice!

Heb. 8:9-10 / Jer. 31:32-33 - (nothing about husband); laws into their mind. Hebrew - I was a husband; law in their inward parts.

Heb. 9:28 / Isaiah 10:22 - “to save those” who are eagerly awaiting for Him. Hebrew - a remnant of them “shall return.”

Heb. 10:5 / Psalm 40:6 - “but a body hast thou prepared for me.” Hebrew - “mine ears hast thou opened.”

Heb. 10:38 / Hab. 2:3-4 - if he shrinks (or draws) back, my soul shall have no pleasure. Hebrew - his soul is puffed up, not upright.

Heb. 11:5 / Gen. 5:24 - Enoch was not “found.” Hebrew - Enoch was “not.”

Heb. 11:21 / Gen. 47:31 - Israel, bowing “over the head of his staff.” Hebrew - there is nothing about bowing over the head of his staff.

Heb. 12:6 / Prov. 3:12 - He chastises every son whom He receives. Hebrew - even as a father the son in whom he delights.

Heb. 13:6 / Psalm 118:6 - the Lord “is my helper.” Hebrew - Jehova “is on my side.” The LXX and the NT are identical.

James 4:6 / Prov. 3:34 - God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. Hebrew - He scoffs at scoffers and gives grace to the lowly.

1 Peter 1:24 / Isaiah 40:6 - all its “glory” like the flower. Hebrew - all the “goodliness” as the flower.

1 Pet. 2:9 / Exodus 19:6 - you are a “royal priesthood.” Hebrew - you shall be to me a “kingdom of priests.”

1 Pet. 2:9 / Isaiah 43:21 - God’s own people…who called you out of darkness. Heb. - which I formed myself. These are different actions.

1 Pet. 2:22 / Isaiah 53:9 - he “committed no sin.” Hebrew - he “had done no violence.”

1 Pet. 4:18 / Prov. 11:31 - if a righteous man “is scarcely saved.” Hebrew - if the righteous “is recompensed.”

1 Pet. 5:5 / Prov. 3:34 - God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. Hebrew - He scoffs at scoffers and gives grace to lowly.

Isaiah 11:2 - this verse describes the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, but the seventh gift, “piety,” is only found in the Septuagint

 

[Jaguar]

Pretty convincing! Thank you all very much.

 

[toaslan]

Everybody, the Mormons (who embrace as infallible the KJV) are coming to our apologetics class tomorrow night on Mormonism.

The King James Version bible’s OT is the smaller collection canonized by the Jews in the First Century after Christ, right?

Not only is the collection missing the deuterocanonicals, it is also a different translation, right?

Because Martin Luther and therefore the KJV rejected the Septuagint, the KJV rejects some books and also some translations of the other books. (The Jews attempted to retain only books for which there were verifiable Hebrew originals, getting rid of all Greek-only books; though the Dead Sea Scrolls have since shown they made a mistake to leave some books out on these grounds alone.)

To show this, the real clincher would be if Our Lord actually quoted from the deuterocanonicals, right? Then the differences in translations which elevate the Septuagint wouldn’t be so important…I mean, one could argue directly, rather than by implication.

So, did Our Lord quote from the deuterocanonicals even once?

Or does Peary’s sample list tell me, by the absence from it of the deuteros, that there is no direct quote from Jesus from, say, Tobit?

 

[Spirithound]

To show this, the real clincher would be if Our Lord actually quoted from the deuterocanonicals, right? Then the differences in translations which elevate the Septuagint wouldn’t be so important…I mean, one could argue directly, rather than by implication.

So, did Our Lord quote from the deuterocanonicals even once?

Or does Peary’s sample list tell me, by the absence from it of the deuteros, that there is no direct quote from Jesus from, say, Tobit?

That’s not really a good proof either way, since there are several undisputed OT books which are never quoted.

 

[toaslan]

Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament)

peary, I looked up one of your examples:

KJV Matt. 3:3-- make his paths straight.
KJV Mark 1:3–make his paths straight.
KJV John 1:23–Make straight the way of the Lord
DR Matt 3:3–make straight his paths
DR Mark 1:3–make straight his paths.
DR John 1:23–make straight the way of the Lord

Isaiah 40:3
Hebrew – make “level in the desert a highway.”
Septuagint – make “His paths straight.”
KJV – “make straight in the desert a highway for our God.”
DR – “make straight in the wilderness the paths of our God”

Here’s what I see from this one example of Our Lord quoting from the OT:

1. Same words for all Christians in Our Lord’s mouth as He quotes Isaiah.
2. Going back to look at Isaiah itself, the protestant bible copies the Hebrew using a different word “highway”; while the Catholic bible copies the Septuagint, using the same language with shows up in Our Lord’s mouth in the NT.

This shows that the Septuagint version of the OT is better than the Hebrew translation, at least for us Christians!

Do I have this right?

But taking another example:

Matt. 12:21 / Isaiah 42:4 - in His name will the Gentiles hope (or trust).

DR Matt 12:21 – And in his name the Gentiles shall hope.
KJV Matt 12:21–And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

KJV Isaiah – and the isles shall wait for his law.
DR Isaiah – and the islands shall wait for his law.

Hebrew - the isles shall wait for his law.

This time both Catholic and Protestant bibles reflect the Hebrew–what is the Septuagint instead? I don’t get what this is an example of…

Does anybody have a link to the site where each Greek word in the Septuagint is shown parsed in strict english? I’ve misplaced it… I could use the same resource for the Hebrew…

 

[toaslan]

That’s not really a good proof either way, since there are several undisputed OT books which are never quoted.

I’m trying to argue from a positive, rather than from a negative.

Do you deny that if Our Lord quoted Tobit it would show He accepted the Septuagint? How so.

 

[Spirithound]

I’m trying to argue from a positive, rather than from a negative.

Do you deny that if Our Lord quoted Tobit it would show He accepted the Septuagint? How so.

I do not thusly deny.

 

[NotWorthy]

I’m trying to argue from a positive, rather than from a negative.

Do you deny that if Our Lord quoted Tobit it would show He accepted the Septuagint? How so.

Well, isn’t the “Acts of Moses” referenced in Jude’s Epistle. I don’t think canonicity depends on quotations.

Also, the woman in one of the Maccabees who had all 7 of her children tortured in front of her - isn’t this story referenced by Jesus, if not quoted directly? There are numerous other references, that can be traced to the Deuteros, but no exact quotes that I’ve found.

 

[Jaguar]

This is getting more and more interesting!

I’ll just sit back and wait for more.

 

[mijac]

To show this, the real clincher would be if Our Lord actually quoted from the deuterocanonicals, right? Then the differences in translations which elevate the Septuagint wouldn’t be so important…I mean, one could argue directly, rather than by implication.

So, did Our Lord quote from the deuterocanonicals even once?

Or does Peary’s sample list tell me, by the absence from it of the deuteros, that there is no direct quote from Jesus from, say, Tobit?

In **the Original 1611 King James Version we find eleven New Testament verses that the Protestant translators felt were quotes from “Apocrypha” books, and in the margin notes they cross-referenced them as such. **
Mat 6:7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. Ecclesiasticus 7:13 Be not full of words in a multitude of ancients, and repeat not the word in thy prayer.

Mat 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldst not?

4 Esdras 1:30
So haue I gathered you, as the henne her chickenes vnder her winges. But now what shal I doe to you? I wil throw you from my face. (Matt. 23:37)
Mat 27:43He trusted in God: let him now deliver him if he will have him. For he said: I am the Son of God.

And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner. Tobit 4:16 See thou never do to another what thou wouldst hate to have done to thee by another.

John 10:22 And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: and it was winter. 1 Maccabees 4:59
And Judas, and his brethren, and all the church of Israel decreed, that the day of the dedication of the altar should be kept in its season from year to year for eight days, from the five and twentieth day of the month of Casleu, with joy and gladness. (Hanakah)

Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour? Wisdom 15:7 The potter also tempering soft earth, with labour fashioneth every vessel for our service, and of the same clay he maketh both vessels that are for clean uses, and likewise such as serve to the contrary: but what is the use of these vessels, the potter is the judge

Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counsellor? Wisdom 9:13 For who among men is he that can know the counsel of God? or who can think what the will of God is?

2 Cor 9:7 Every one as he hath determined in his heart, not with sadness or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. Ecclesiasticus 35:9 The sacrifice of the just is acceptable, and the Lord will not forget the memorial thereof.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory and the figure of his substance and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high: Wisdom 7:27 And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again. But others were racked, not accepting deliverance, that they might find a better resurrection. 2 Maccabees 7:1-42

 

[runandsew]

Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of canon of the Old Testament.

They only used the Septuagint to make their translation easier since they weren’t educated men. They just assumed that the Jews would go home and look to their Hebrew Old Testament to verify what the inspired passage should actually read, they didn’t expect them just to acccept the uninspired greek quote.
Again, this was only done because it was easier and quicker than actually translating Hebrew into Greek. No one with an education such as mine really believes that they actually used the Septuagint.

 

[NotWorthy]

They only used the Septuagint to make their translation easier since they weren’t educated men. They just assumed that the Jews would go home and look to their Hebrew Old Testament to verify what the inspired passage should actually read, they didn’t expect them just to acccept the uninspired greek quote.
Again, this was only done because it was easier and quicker than actually translating Hebrew into Greek. No one with an education such as mine really believes that they actually used the Septuagint.

I disagree. The whole reason for the Greek Septuagint was so that more Jews could read the Old Testament. Hebrew was a dying language by the lst and 2nd century BC, especially with most Jews living outside of Judea in the diaspora.

 

[peary]

They only used the Septuagint to make their translation easier since they weren’t educated men. They just assumed that the Jews would go home and look to their Hebrew Old Testament to verify what the inspired passage should actually read, they didn’t expect them just to acccept the uninspired greek quote.
Again, this was only done because it was easier and quicker than actually translating Hebrew into Greek. No one with an education such as mine really believes that they actually used the Septuagint.

Sorry that I am not as educated as you; however, you have an opinion, and nothing based on factual historical data.

 

[Spirithound]

They just assumed that the Jews would go home and look to their Hebrew Old Testament to verify what the inspired passage should actually read, they didn’t expect them just to acccept the uninspired greek quote.
Again, this was only done because it was easier and quicker than actually translating Hebrew into Greek.

How precisely would they go home to look at a scroll that they didn’t possess, and that they couldn’t read, to find a sentence without any reference markers (ie, chapter and verse numbers), which would at any rate be rather different from what Jesus or whichever Apostle actually said?