Paul founded Christianity-how to refute

[JB_Brother_4446]

You all haven’t heard of Pauline Christianity? Many 20th scholars have written on the teachings of Paul and how they became the foundation of the early Church.

It’s not so much Paul vs Peter, but rather the teachings of Paul vs the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. Two very different foci, and we know that many Protestant branches of the Church rely more on the teachings in Paul’s writings than in the Gospels.

I don’t think it’s a new concept. There are some scholars worth reading:

E.P. Sanders and his three primary books, starting with Jesus and Judaism.
Bishop Wright: What Saint Paul Really Said:Was Paul of Tarsus the Real Founder of Christianity?
A.N. Wilson: Paul, the Mind of the Apostle

and on and on. Please don’t dismiss this; it is quite a valid argument. But again, you aren’t arguing for Peter. There are really no Petrine teachings and the teaching is what this is all about.

St. Peter wrote two books and plenty of his teachings were in Acts.

 

[mattp0625]

Matthew 28 pretty much settles the matter. The eleven were present at the Ascension and Great Commission - all authority on heaven and earth has been given to me, go therefore …

The twelve were present at the last supper.

And I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven (Peter)

Paul, while important to the church, was not present at these foundational events.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

St. Peter wrote two books and plenty of his teachings were in Acts.

There are two medium sized letters in the NT attributed to Peter but not written by him. The Book of Acts has many incidences of Peter’s sermons and works - you are right. But again, Pauline Christianity is NOT about Peter vs Paul. It is about the Gospel teachings of Jesus vs the teachings of Paul.

 

[jcrichton]

According to the following two books Paul was the founder of Christianity:

1. The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity (Harper and Row, 1986) by Hyam Maccoby,
2. Paul: the Founder of Christianity (Prometheus Books, 2002), by Gerd Lüdemann

Hi!
…I’m lazy–just don’t read much… so I will speak in absence of experience (not reading/planning to read the quoted books); anyone can claim anything–hindsight is always 20/20; heard about the group of scholars who contended that they had proof-positive that: a) 'we found Jesus tomb," and b) “we found dna evidence that Jesus married Mary of Magdala and had children with her and we found their tomb?” …well one of those “information” networks (discovery, ng, history, science) went all out in airing their take on it–it went as the “undisputable proof that the Dead Sea Scrolls will set Christianity (the Catholic Church) on its head” *

Claiming that St. Paul is the founder of Christianity (other than to credit him for being the most prolific Writer of the New Testament books) is simply ignorant (yeah, “scholars” do tend to have their ego write checks without foundations–they go on “elitist fume”); insisting on that theory is to be completely blind since Scriptures clearly demonstrates that the Church was Founded by Christ, Who Delegated her development to the Apostles, placing Simon Peter as the lead Apostle:

1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after** giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.**

3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

15 In those days **Peter stood up among the believers **(a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)

26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.(Acts 1:1-5, 15, 26)

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd:

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,** in the name of Jesus Christ** for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

And** the Lord added to their number daily **those who were being saved.(Acts 2:14a, 36-40, 47b)

1 The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to** Peter and John** while they were speaking to the people. 2 They were greatly disturbed because **the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus **the resurrection of the dead. 3 They seized Peter and John and, because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day. 4 But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by **the name of Jesus Christ **of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is
“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

16 “What are we going to do with these men?” they asked. “Everyone living in Jerusalem knows they have performed a notable sign, and we cannot deny it. 17 But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn them to speak no longer to anyone in this name.”

29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

33 With great power** the apostles continued to testify **to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And **God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all **(Acts 4:1-4, 10-12, 16-17, 29-31, 33)

14 Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number.
(Acts 5:14, 17-18)
I’ve just reached the text-limit–Cont. Part II

Maran atha!

Angel*

 

[jcrichton]

According to the following two books Paul was the founder of Christianity:

1. The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity (Harper and Row, 1986) by Hyam Maccoby,
2. Paul: the Founder of Christianity (Prometheus Books, 2002), by Gerd Lüdemann

Part II

14 Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number.

17 Then the high priest and all his associates, who were members of the party of the Sadducees, were filled with jealousy. 18 **They arrested the apostles **and put them in the public jail. 19 But during the night **an angel of the Lord **opened the doors of the jail and brought them out.

21 At daybreak** they entered the temple courts**, as they had been told, and began to teach the people.

38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But** if it is from God**, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

41** The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name**. 42 Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah. (Acts 5:14, 17-19, 21, 38-39, 41-42)

6 In those days when the number of disciples was increasing,

7 So** the word of God spread**. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.(Acts 6:1a, 7)

Scriptures demonstrate that Jesus’ Ascension was, as that movie quotes, only the Beginning!

Saul, which we will later know as Paul aka St. Paul has not even entered the arena–he, as the devote Pharisee that he was, was undoubtedly following the account from the background.

It is not until the Martyrdom of Stephan that Saul directly enters into contact with those known as the Way:

48 “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:
49 “‘Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me?
says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
50 Has not my hand made all these things?
51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted** the coming of the Righteous One**. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.” 54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul. (Acts 7:48-58)

On that day a great persecution broke out **against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles **were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2 Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison. (Acts 8:1-3)

During his active persecution of the Church Saul, converted by Christ, becomes a Believer of Christ, aka of the Way, aka Christian:

1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.” 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” (Acts 9:1-6, 13-16, 20-21)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

How do you know that what they say is unfounded if you have not read them?

…reading fiction does not make it nonfiction!
…are you aware that there are those who claim that the US’s government produced (as in conspired to kill Americans and attack America) the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks? …they even have “expert” testimonies claiming how the towers could not have been brought down as it is claimed but through an intricate and methodical distribution of explosives, expertly placed and wired for simultaneous explosion with the plains assaults (they forget/ignore the other simultaneous attacks that occurred in other parts of the US–oh yeah, and reality).

Ignoring the fact that Saul, aka St. Paul, was a devote Pharisee bent on decimating the Church, cannot but yield a compromised conclusion (much like Star Trek’s always finding intelligent life in the universe); that is, if one starts with the premise that “good guys wear black,” not a single black op by any government or agency in the world would be evil/unrighteous as long as their operatives wear black.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

There are two medium sized letters in the NT attributed to Peter but not written by him. The Book of Acts has many incidences of Peter’s sermons and works - you are right. But again, Pauline Christianity is NOT about Peter vs Paul. It is about the Gospel teachings of Jesus vs the teachings of Paul.

They were written by him. And you still have Acts. Paul’s teaching was given the go-ahead from the leadership of the Church, namely Peter and James, and given directly from Jesus Himself. #howquicklytheyforget

 

[jcrichton]

Where did I say it was necessary? I don’t remember ever saying it was necessary to read any book. I simply asked how a person can say that the thesis of a book is unfounded if he has not read the book.

…a train leaves NY from Grand Central Station, traveling North-East at 200mph, when would the SS Minnow reach Vulcan?

A. One second after entering the wormhole–no one can learn anything about wildlife by reading: “The Jungle Book”–less one accepts the caricaturization of the depicted animals as reality.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You all haven’t heard of Pauline Christianity? Many 20th scholars have written on the teachings of Paul and how they became the foundation of the early Church.

It’s not so much Paul vs Peter, but rather the teachings of Paul vs the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. Two very different foci, and we know that many Protestant branches of the Church rely more on the teachings in Paul’s writings than in the Gospels.

I don’t think it’s a new concept. There are some scholars worth reading:

E.P. Sanders and his three primary books, starting with Jesus and Judaism.
Bishop Wright: What Saint Paul Really Said:Was Paul of Tarsus the Real Founder of Christianity?
A.N. Wilson: Paul, the Mind of the Apostle

and on and on. Please don’t dismiss this; it is quite a valid argument. But again, you aren’t arguing for Peter. There are really no Petrine teachings and the teaching is what this is all about.

…but isn’t this the akin to the argument against December 25th?

…those who are making the argument, are they suggesting that St. Paul advanced Christianity or are they stating that Christianity is a religion founded by St. Paul?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

St. Peter wrote two books and plenty of his teachings were in Acts.

Hi, JB!
…what they ignore is that it is the Holy Spirit that Inspires not man who determines; when it was important for St. Peter to Write, he did:

15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 St. Peter 3:15-16)

…they are also ignorant (perhaps due to pride or hardened resolution to remain separated) of St. Paul’s own admonitions against divisiveness:

12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas**”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.** (1 Corinthians 1:12-47)
…St. Paul’s was not interested in tooting horns (‘most prolific of the Writers’ or ‘being “on fire” for the Gospel’) his concern was this:

1 And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

(1 Corinthians 2:1-2)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[ComplineSanFran]

They were written by him. And you still have Acts. Paul’s teaching was given the go-ahead from the leadership of the Church, namely Peter and James, and given directly from Jesus Himself. #howquicklytheyforget

Sorry, but I don’t know of a single contemporary Biblical scholar who says that the Petrine letters were actually written by Peter. Can you give me a reputable source that says that they were?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

…those who are making the argument, are they suggesting that St. Paul advanced Christianity or are they stating that Christianity is a religion founded by St. Paul?

From my understanding, scholars are not saying that Paul founded Christianity - not by any means. Nor are they saying that he only advanced it. That would be beside the point; of course he did. Pauline Christianity is Christianity that is primarily based on Pauline teachings over and above other teachings in the Gospels.

 

[jcrichton]

From my understanding, scholars are not saying that Paul founded Christianity - not by any means. Nor are they saying that he only advanced it. That would be beside the point; of course he did. Pauline Christianity is Christianity that is primarily based on Pauline teachings over and above other teachings in the Gospels.

…yet, by your statement you seem to imply that there is a distinction of Gospel–St. Paul chastised those who were taking sides as he reminded them that he himself did not even Baptize many of them (that is bring them into the Faith) and that regardless or their inception, Christians are not to be arguing about contentions and sides; there’s but one Christ.

Suggesting that there must be some sort of Apostle’s Christianity vs. Apostle’s Christianity, are those who engage in such things not the same as those to whom St. Paul warned that they must be fed milk instead of solid nourishment?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Sorry, but I don’t know of a single contemporary Biblical scholar who says that the Petrine letters were actually written by Peter. Can you give me a reputable source that says that they were?

So you contend as the “scholars” that the Holy Spirit could not have Inspired the Epistles of St. Peter?:

The authorship of 1 Peter has traditionally been attributed to the Apostle Peter because it bears his name and identifies him as its author (1:1). Although the text identifies Peter as its author the language, dating, style, and structure of this letter has led many scholars to conclude that this letter is pseudonymous. Many scholars are convinced that Peter was not the author of this letter because the author had to have a formal education in rhetoric/philosophy and an advanced knowledge of the Greek language.[1] (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_of_Peter)

…so Jesus was wrong in Choosing Peter? …and “once a fisherman…?”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Sorry, but I don’t know of a single contemporary Biblical scholar who says that the Petrine letters were actually written by Peter. Can you give me a reputable source that says that they were?

The Fathers. Scripture itself. The account is given of ‘we’ seeing Jesus’ glory, and it’s identical to the Transfiguration. Contemporary scholars are a lot of times basically atheists.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

So you contend as the “scholars” that the Holy Spirit could not have Inspired the Epistles of St. Peter?:

…so Jesus was wrong in Choosing Peter? …and “once a fisherman…?”

Maran atha!

Angel

As a side note, Mark was Peter’s secretary. Instead of people writing down letters by hand, they had people do it for them.

 

[PNEUMA]

Paul founded Christianity-how to refute

Paul founded a branch, that is the Church of the uncircumcised. The Church of the circumcised was already founded by Jesus Christ himself.

Matthew 15:24 “He answered, ‘I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”

Matthew 10:5 “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: ‘Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As you go, proclaim the good news, “The kingdom of heaven has come near.”Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons.”

The two churches eventually merged into one Holy Catholic (universal) church

 

[Praedicare]

One way we can tell Paul didn’t *invent *the beliefs that he was explaining can be found in 1 Corinthians 15.

3 … I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received,
that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,
4 that he was buried,
that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

When Paul says “I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received”, and then talks about the death and resurrection of Christ, he is speaking in a very peculiar way. The Greek has a “sing-song”, mnemonic quality to it, as children memorize the ABC Song.

Paul is, in fact, passing down something he has memorized – not a formula created from his own florid, prolix mind, but from something older, from some personality other than himself. The poetic, rhythmic quality of the lines points to an earlier tradition that he is, in fact, honestly passing down; the truth that “I also received”.

There is something very deep, here. Even Bart Ehrman, the atheist scholar against Christianity, admits that the creed Paul is giving is not of Paul’s making, but can be dated to within 6-12 months of the Cross of Jesus.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Paul founded a branch, that is the Church of the uncircumcised. The Church of the circumcised was already founded by Jesus Christ himself.

Matthew 15:24 “He answered, ‘I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”

Matthew 10:5 “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: ‘Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As you go, proclaim the good news, “The kingdom of heaven has come near.”Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons.”

The two churches eventually merged into one Holy Catholic (universal) church

It was Peter who baptized the first Gentile.

 

[jcrichton]

As a side note, Mark was Peter’s secretary. Instead of people writing down letters by hand, they had people do it for them.

…an observation which is usually lost to “scholars”–as is the fact that Jesus foretold His Disciples not to worry about setting up a defense, when brought to court, since it would be the Holy Spirit Himself Who (or is it, Whom) will give them the Words they need to pronounce. Would the Holy Spirit need “scholars” to convey the Word of God?

Maran atha!

Angel