Paul of Tarsus

[StrawberryJam]

His life, claims he makes, and his actions and words. Do they line up upon critical examination?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Was Paul of Tarsus a student of Gamaliel?

 

[Crumpy]

To question whether Paul was a student of Gamaliel means you must doubt it. I’ve heard this doubt before based on 1) that Paul was from Tarsus and 2) well, 2 is complicated.

Jesus’ followers seem to be non-insiders, i.e. non-Jerusalem guys. This is Jewish criticism, that those Jews who really had an extensive knowledge of Jewish scripture rejected Jesus’ claim to be messiah.

I think Paul “lines up” historically if not for what Jewish beliefs he retains, but for what also that he definitively rejects.

The undisputed Paul seems to be well-educated, at the feet of Gamaliel or somebody.

 

[Bookcat]

His life, claims he makes, and his actions and words. Do they line up upon critical examination?

I Highly recommend reading the Weds Aud of Pope Benedict XVI on Paul

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/index_en.htm

You will see them numbered…start at one and keep going…they end the next year

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080827_en.html

 

[diggerdomer]

His life, claims he makes, and his actions and words. Do they line up upon critical examination?

Yes

 

[diggerdomer]

Was Paul of Tarsus a student of Gamaliel?

Possible. Some would say probable.

 

[John7]

Yes

I agree

 

[StrawberryJam]

Possible. Some would say probable.

I would go with possible. Not very probable.
Let me ask you, was Paul a contemporary of Jesus as I am led to believe?

 

[StrawberryJam]

I agree

Explain why you agree with a yes answer.

Was Paul a contemporary of Jesus? And a christian killer?

 

[John7]

His life, claims he makes, and his actions and words. Do they line up upon critical examination?

Yes

For example Paul claimed that he had actually seen the risen Christ. I believe that his words and actions line up with this.

His life was drastically changed on the ‘road to Damascus’. He claimed he had seen the risen Christ in a light from heaven on that road, and his life was transformed because of it. I believe there is ample scriptural evidence that he had actually seen the risen Christ from 1) his writings and 2) his many missionary journeys

for example from Colossians 1 he writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Paul himself was as in vs 13 delivered from the power of darkness (before he met Jesus, when he persecuted the church) and was translated into Christ’s kingdom where he was totally devoted to his Lord Jesus.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Yes

For example Paul claimed that he had actually seen the risen Christ. I believe that his words and actions line up with this.

His life was drastically changed on the ‘road to Damascus’. He claimed he had seen the risen Christ in a light from heaven on that road, and his life was transformed because of it. I believe there is ample scriptural evidence that he had actually seen the risen Christ from 1) his writings and 2) his many missionary journeys

for example from Colossians 1 he writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Paul himself was as in vs 13 delivered from the power of darkness (before he met Jesus, when he persecuted the church) and was translated into Christ’s kingdom where he was totally devoted to his Lord Jesus.

Yes, indeed he “saw” the risen Christ in a vision.

I did not ask you about that. I asked you if he was a contemporary of Jesus, and if he was killing Christians, and earlier asked if he was a student of a well known historical rabbi.

Now, your commentary does not address any of my questions. Your commentary evades my questions.

Why would a student of such a sage and non violent rabbi, go out on a killing spree of christians when Jesus was, as his contemporary available to confront?

 

[John7]

Yes, indeed he “saw” the risen Christ in a vision.

I did not ask you about that.

yes you did.

your original question was:
“His life, claims he makes, and his actions and words. Do they line up upon critical examination”

then you wrote: “Explain why you agree with a yes answer”

I answered yes and gave you an example. Or didn’t you want an example of a claim Paul made and whether it lines up with critical examination. Tell me/us exactly what you mean by ‘critical examination’ and by whom, eg Christian or atheist scholars or other.

I asked you if he was a contemporary of Jesus,

Paul had to have been alive when Jesus was physically on earth (don’t know what the age difference was), but there is no indication the two ever crossed paths, except of course when he met Jesus alive on road to Damascus.

and if he was killing Christians,

Acts 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Now it doesn’t say in this verse that Paul was carrying out physical executions, but his capturing and delivering Christians to prison did lead to Christian deaths. Also he had to ask permission from the high priest to bind the Christians and bring them back to Jerusalem (see Acts 9:1-2).

and earlier asked if he was a student of a well known historical rabbi.

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

I’m assuming that ‘brought up at the feet of’ includes learning from, therefore Paul would have been a student of Gamaliel.

Acts 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;

I’m guessing both Gamaliel’s are the same man.

Now, your commentary does not address any of my questions.

so sorry

Your commentary evades my questions.

not at all

Why would a student of such a sage and non violent rabbi, go out on a killing spree of christians when Jesus was, as his contemporary available to confront?

Why would Paul do such a thing to Christians? This is an important verse for your question. Jesus said to his disciples in John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Paul had to have thought he was doing God service by capturing and imprisoning Christians.

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the **betrayers and **murderers:

tell me if this helped, if not, I’ll try my best to answer some more.

 

[StrawberryJam]

yes you did.

your original question was:
“His life, claims he makes, and his actions and words. Do they line up upon critical examination”

then you wrote: “Explain why you agree with a yes answer”

I answered yes and gave you an example. Or didn’t you want an example of a claim Paul made and whether it lines up with critical examination. Tell me/us exactly what you mean by ‘critical examination’ and by whom, eg Christian or atheist scholars or other.

Paul had to have been alive when Jesus was physically on earth (don’t know what the age difference was), but there is no indication the two ever crossed paths, except of course when he met Jesus alive on road to Damascus.

Acts 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Now it doesn’t say in this verse that Paul was carrying out physical executions, but his capturing and delivering Christians to prison did lead to Christian deaths. Also he had to ask permission from the high priest to bind the Christians and bring them back to Jerusalem (see Acts 9:1-2).

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

I’m assuming that ‘brought up at the feet of’ includes learning from, therefore Paul would have been a student of Gamaliel.

Acts 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;

I’m guessing both Gamaliel’s are the same man.
so sorry
not at all

Why would Paul do such a thing to Christians? This is an important verse for your question. Jesus said to his disciples in John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Paul had to have thought he was doing God service by capturing and imprisoning Christians.

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the **betrayers and **murderers:

tell me if this helped, if not, I’ll try my best to answer some more.

Hello John 7,

Well, here’s my problem with all this. Paul of Tarsus had a peace loving teacher. We all know what the NT claims he said when Paul himself was in trouble.
Now, don’t you think, that a christian killer would have been big news to such a wise old sage, and that he would have found it worthy of comment? A fromer student of his?

Not to mention the more obvious point- How did Paul seem to not find Jesus himself? Were the acts of Jesus not enough to get the attention of the “Zealot” Paul, who was “killing” all these christians? When he lived at the same time of Jesus, and should have heard of him?

 

[John7]

Hello John 7,

Well, here’s my problem with all this. Paul of Tarsus had a peace loving teacher. We all know what the NT claims he said when Paul himself was in trouble.
Now, don’t you think, that a christian killer would have been big news to such a wise old sage, and that he would have found it worthy of comment? A fromer student of his?

From the few verses found in the Bible about Gamaliel I could only speculate on his character, his ongoing relationship with Paul, and whether he approved of Paul’s hounding of the early Church. A peace loving teacher…who knows
Found this in Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel

Not to mention the more obvious point- How did Paul seem to not find Jesus himself? Were the acts of Jesus not enough to get the attention of the “Zealot” Paul, who was “killing” all these christians? When he lived at the same time of Jesus, and should have heard of him?

I don’t know . Saul was a ‘young man’ when Stephen was killed (Acts 7:58). If say he was 18 yrs-old when this happened about 36 AD. Three years to when Jesus was crucified in 33 AD would have put Saul ~15 yrs-old. So about 12 yrs-old when Jesus began his ministry. He was probably in Pharisee (or pre-Pharisee) ‘school’ then and maybe oblivious to anything else…just speculation though.

 

[When_it_comes]

f God is omniscient then he knows how to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering.
If God is omnipotent then he is able to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering.
If God is benevolent then he wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering.
But if God knows how to, is able to and wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering, then why does he not do so?

“God is incomprehensible” you respond.

Theists have often been content to say that we are unable to comprehend God, that his being transcends our mundane experiences and that our concepts, which are derived from such experiences, cannot be used to describe him. If true, then this might be thought to count in favor of agnosticism; if we cannot comprehend God, then how can we reason with any confidence concerning his existence?

Of course, I can’t expect this to make sense to any one here. The only way you could maintain such a blind faith as I see here is if you rejected anything that offended you or challenged your knowledge. At least when I am censored, you must acknowledge the truth of this last paragraph.

 

[hellopeople]

I would go with possible. Not very probable.
Let me ask you, was Paul a contemporary of Jesus as I am led to believe?

He was younger than Jesus, but was alive when Jesus was alive. He never met the physical Jesus, though he claimed to meet the spiritual Jesus.

 

[hellopeople]

Yes, indeed he “saw” the risen Christ in a vision.

I did not ask you about that. I asked you if he was a contemporary of Jesus, and if he was killing Christians, and earlier asked if he was a student of a well known historical rabbi.

Now, your commentary does not address any of my questions. Your commentary evades my questions.

Why would a student of such a sage and non violent rabbi, go out on a killing spree of christians when Jesus was, as his contemporary available to confront?

It says right in Acts that he killed Christians.

 

[crazzeto]

Explain why you agree with a yes answer.

Was Paul a contemporary of Jesus? And a christian killer?

StrawberryJam,

You present a lot of doubts, but so far you have yet to present your basis for them. Since you started this conversation, I would invite you to present the evidence upon which you base your doubts. As for whether Paul was a live at the time of Christ, St. Peter’s writing aboslutly confirm this:

15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

Acts confirms he was present at the Stoning of St. Stephen, and was already in a position of power:

56 And they crying out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and with one accord ran violently upon him. 57 And casting him forth without the city, they stoned him; and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man, whose name was Saul. 58 And they stoned Stephen, invoking, and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 59 And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying: Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep in the Lord. And Saul was consenting to his death.

And in Acts 22, Paul’s words stating he was a student of Gamaliel are recorded:

Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye the account which I now give unto you. 2 (And when they heard that he spoke to them in the Hebrew tongue, they kept the more silence.) 3 And he saith: I am a Jew, born at Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the truth of the law of the fathers, zealous for the law, as also all you are this day:

We also know from his writings, that when Paul converted, he didn’t suddenly become a habitual liar. So honest is he, that he refuses to claim definitivly that he will go to heaven, reserving that to God alone:

1 Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. 2 Here now it is required among the dispensers, that a man be found faithful. 3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man’s day; but neither do I judge my own self.

There is a strong case for Saul of Tarsus in scripture alone, but if that’s not enough the Fathers were’t quite about him either.

Ignatius of Antioch writes in 110AD

Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict

And Dionysius of Corinth in 170

You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time

this can be found in Eusebius, History of the Church

 

[hellopeople]

Not to mention the more obvious point- How did Paul seem to not find Jesus himself? Were the acts of Jesus not enough to get the attention of the “Zealot” Paul, who was “killing” all these christians? When he lived at the same time of Jesus, and should have heard of him?

This argument is weird. Paul didn’t start persecuting Christians until at least 10 years after Jesus’ death…probably longer. When Jesus was alive Paul was likely young and Christianity was unheard of.

 

[crazzeto]

According to St. Polycarp, a student of the Apostle John and martyr, in his Epistle to the Philipians:

These things, brethren, I write to you concerning righteousness, not because I take anything upon myself, but because ye have invited me to do so. For neither I, nor any other such one, can come up to the wisdom (Comp. 2Pe_3:15) of the blessed and glorified Paul. He, when among you, accurately and stedfastly taught the word of truth in the presence of those who were then alive. And when absent from you, he wrote you a letter,6 which, if you carefully study, you will find to be the means of building you up in that faith which has been given you, and which, being followed by hope, and preceded by love towards God, and Christ, and our neighbour, “is the mother of us all.” (Comp. Gal_4:26) For if any one be inwardly possessed of these graces, he hath fulfilled the command of righteousness, since he that hath love is far from all sin.

No doubt, Paul was alive durring the period of time which is claimed.