Paul rebuked Peter

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Arglaze said:
Why are you assuming Peter was a pope? He never refered to himself as that, nor was He the “infallible” leader of the church, or Vicar of Christ. Even Paul, which wasn’t one of the original 12 rebuked him at one point. Here’s an example of why we need to go according to the Word of God.
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Arglaze, I think you are understandably confused.

There’s actually no contradiction between saying that Peter was a pope, and saying that Paul rebuked him. Indeed, Pope Honorius was condemned as a heretic by the 6th ecumenical council (the Third Council of Constantinople) in 680. I think you’ll agree that condemnation as a heretic is a stronger condemnation than Paul’s rebuke against Peter.
 
P.S. The Catholic teaching on Papal Infallibility only says that the pope is infallible when he makes an ex cathedra statement – which, roughly speaking, is whenever he defines a dogma.
 
St. Catherine of Sienna also rebuked the Pope. It happens all the time.
 
But remember what Peter said when Jesus life was in danger.

Mark 14:71
He [Peter] began to curse and to swear, "I do not know this man[Jesus] about whom you are talking."

Also remember, the next verse 72 is not found some manuscripts.
 
So the point is that Popes are not perfect and need to rebuked, as do all leaders. Catholics recognize this.
 
Peter was rebuked because of his behavior, not what he taught. He taught that Jewish and gentile Christians were equal but he wasn’t exactly acting as though they were. His teaching was not in error.
 
East_and_West said:
So the point is that Popes are not perfect and need to rebuked, as do all leaders. Catholics recognize this.
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Oh, do they? Then why does :Lumen Gentium (25) command:
In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent.This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Oh, do they? Then why does :Lumen Gentium (25) command:
In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent.This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.
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Oh my. Here come the monyphosites to chime in. Once you guys accept that Christ has two natures, then i think you will have something to say on this matter. Now,what is your point?
 
East_and_West said:
Oh my. Here come the monyphosites to chime in. This will be fun. What is your point?
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even when he is not speaking ex cathedra

btw, I’m not Monophysite. Not even Miaphysite, but they give independent testimony to which I speak.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
even when he is not speaking ex cathedra

btw, I’m not Monophysite. Not even Miaphysite, but they give independent testimony to which I speak.
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And how is this a problem? We listen to the Pope even when he is not speaking ex Cathedra. This doesn’t stop us from rebuking him when he was wrong. You should try and understand Catholicism buy look at the history of our Church.
You are not Monophysite? Then why in communion with Pope of Alexandria?
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Oh, do they? Then why does :Lumen Gentium (25) command:
In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent.This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.
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This does not mean the pope should not be rebuked if he is imprudent or not living up to his calling. Only that we need to respect his teaching authority in matters of faith and morals even when the teaching isn’t specifically ex cathedra.

Please don’t shout.😦
 
aaronjo said:
But remember what Peter said when Jesus life was in danger.

Mark 14:71
He [Peter] began to curse and to swear, "I do not know this man[Jesus] about whom you are talking."

Also remember, the next verse 72 is not found some manuscripts.
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Peter denied Jesus out of weakness at that time. But later Jesus told him to ‘feed my sheep’. After that, Peter preached and taught and acted as shepherd and never again denied Jesus and was martyred for Him.

And your point is…?
 
One pope (I would have to search which exactly) was rebuked by St Catherine of Sienna. Another one was maybe not rebuked, but very much impressed by Francis of Assissi and his way of life.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Oh, do they? Then why does :Lumen Gentium (25) command:
In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent.This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.
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Actually, I think the only issue here would be with the last part " … the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will."

I think the best I can do to help understand this is to take a particular example, say Apostolicae Curae. This 1896 papal bull declared all Anglican ordinations to be “absolutely null and utterly void”. It’s not a dogmatic definition, hence it’s not an ex cathedra statement; but y’better agree with if y’wanna be Roman Catholic.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Oh, do they? Then why does :Lumen Gentium (25) command:
In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent.This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.
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It still says in matters of faith and morals, not behavior. It also implies that they are teaching in line with the magisterium.
 
Claire_from_DE said:
Peter was rebuked because of his behavior, not what he taught. He taught that Jewish and gentile Christians were equal but he wasn’t exactly acting as though they were. His teaching was not in error.
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In other words, one could say, Paul was telling Peter, “Faith without works is dead.”
 
Claire_from_DE said:
This does not mean the pope should not be rebuked if he is imprudent or not living up to his calling. Only that we need to respect his teaching authority in matters of faith and morals even when the teaching isn’t specifically ex cathedra.

Please don’t shout.😦
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+1

But it isn’t odd to find one’s personal opine in something entirely separate from the topic at hand.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Please explain.
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You’re injecting your own preconcieved interpretation of that passage, which wholly ignores the history of papal infallibility and other statements from Lumen Gentium
This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father;(136) and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church even to the consummation of the world. And in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles, and instituted in him a permanent and visible source and foundation of unity of faith and communion. And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible magisterium, this Sacred Council again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful.
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Para 18

Emphasis mine. The context of your quote is important.
 
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