Pauline-Christianity??

[lostnovember]

I was not sure were to start this thread.

I was directed to this website while discussing the beginnings of the Church with someone.

sullivan-county.com/news/paul/paul.htm

His position being that what we have now is Pauline-Christianity.
The church as we know it today and its basic beliefs, such as the death of Jesus as saving mankind from sin, was set-up by Paul.

Anything that can help me with this would be much appreciated.

 

[MariaG]

lostnovember:

I was not sure were to start this thread.

I was directed to this website while discussing the beginnings of the Church with someone.

sullivan-county.com/news/paul/paul.htm

His position being that what we have now is Pauline-Christianity.
The church as we know it today and its basic beliefs, such as the death of Jesus as saving mankind from sin, was set-up by Paul.

Anything that can help me with this would be much appreciated.

This sounds like the thesis of a History Channel program that I watched.

The contention is that Paul changed the teachings of Christ. While this may be true of many Protestant churches who seem to put more reliance on Romans than on the Gospels of Christ, it just is quite simply not true.

Scripture itself tells us that some of Paul’s writings are hard to understand. If you first do not understand the teachings of the Christ, which the history Channel clearly did not, it would be understandable that they think Paul teaches something different than Christ.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[inJESUS]

why is it Pauline and not Peterine for example? Paul, Peter and others lived,met and preached at the same time

 

[lostnovember]

Well, the information on the site seperates them into the Pauline camp and the Jerusalem-Jewish/Christian camp.

 

[Steadfast]

la plus ca change…

This is a very old heresy known as Marcionism…with a new face and new “scholarly” proponents…

It’s nonsense. What the church has always taught is that the apostolic kerygma; i.e. that message given by Christ was faithfully transmitted by all the Apostles including Paul.

Since Paul wrote about two-thirds of the New Testament his unpacking of the message has been perhaps fuller than what we have from the other Apostles, but I’d challenge anyone to show me where Paul’s doctrine differs substantially from Peter’s or John’s or Our Lord’s.

 

[inJESUS]

lostnovember:

Well, the information on the site seperates them into the Pauline camp and the Jerusalem-Jewish/Christian camp.

it wasnt only Paul Peter and other disciples were with him.

 

[Justice2006]

lostnovember:

Anything that can help me with this would be much appreciated.

Here is a very useful qoute for you:

"The most famous of all Jewish-Christian disputations was between **the apostate Jew Pablo Christiani ** and Moses Nachmanides (the Ramban).

Nachmanides argued that the central issue separating Christianity and Judaism was not the issue of Jesus’ messiahship, but whether or not Jesus was divine. There was no basis in Judaism, Nachmanides said, for believing in the divinity of the Messiah or, indeed, of any man.

To Nachmanides, it seemed most strange :

“**that the Creator of heaven and earth resorted to the womb of a certain Jewess and grew there for nine months and was born as an infant, and afterwards grew up and was betrayed into the hands of his enemies who sentenced him to death and executed him, and that afterwards… he came to life and returned to his original place. The mind of a Jew, or any other person, cannot tolerate this.” **

Nachmanides told the Spanish monarch:

“** You have listened all your life to priests who have filled your brain and the marrow of your bones with this doctrine, and it has settled with you because of that accustomed habit.”

Had King James heard these ideas propounded for the first time when he was already an adult, Nachmanides implied, he never would have accepted them. ** "

​

simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm

God bless you all.
.

 

[inJESUS]

and we should ask the jews who denied even that Jesus is the messiah? no, we believe the same jews who knew who Jesus is despite their different/wrong expectations …

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

From the site,

Paul’s originality lies in his conception of the death of Jesus as saving mankind from sin. Instead of seeing Jesus as a messiah of the Jewish type human saviour from political bondage he saw him as a salvation-deity whose atoning death by violence was necessary to release his devotees for immortal life. This view of Jesus’ death seems to have come to Paul in his Damascus vision. Its roots lie not in Judaism, but in mystery-religion, with which Paul was acquainted in Tarsus. The violent deaths of Osiris, Attis, Adonis, and Dionysus brought divinization to their initiates. Paul, as founder of the new Christian mystery, initiated the Eucharist, echoing the communion meal of the mystery religions. The awkward insertion of eucharistic material based on I Corinthians 11:23-26 into the Last Supper accounts in the Gospels cannot disguise this, especially as the evidence is that the Jerusalem Church did not practise the Eucharist.

This is nothing more than the olde copy-cat thesis which historians laugh at.

Basically to refute it, one need only show from the Gospels, where Jesus is God ( John 1:1, 5:18, 8:58, 10:30 and so on ), where Jesus spoke about his ressurrection, and the meaning of his death as victory over sin to refute him — also catholic understanding of John 6.

Confronting the Copycat Thesis
A Multi-Essay Examination
tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html

google.com/search?hl=en&q=copycat+thesis&spell=1

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

and we should ask the jews who denied even that Jesus is the messiah? no, we believe the same jews who knew who Jesus is despite their different/wrong expectations …

Dear inJESUS,

The reason you cannot make Jews realise their few false ideas about Messiah because you (Church) have been busy in making their lives miserable by either persecuting them, torchering them or making them refugees instead of bringing them to the common terms such as helping the poor, fearing God’s punishment if you kill anyone for no valid reasons, working for greater cause etc.

The moment you assume anyone as your enemy and attack his specific ideas due to your imaginary “truths” you cannot have a meaningfull dialogue/debate. If you attack even your dad, see what your own dad will do with you?

God bless you.

.

 

[inJESUS]

Justice2006:

Dear inJESUS,

The reason you cannot make Jews realise their few false ideas about Messiah because you (Church) have been busy in making their lives miserable by either persecuting them, torchering them or making them refugees instead of bringing them to the common terms such as helping the poor, fearing God’s punishment if you kill anyone for no valid reasons, working for greater cause etc.

The moment you assume anyone as your enemy and attack his specific ideas due to your imaginary “truths” you cannot have a meaningfull dialogue/debate. If you attack even your dad, see what your own dad will do with you?

God bless you.

.

Justice oh Justice babbling here again…what kind of fallacy is this…mmmm let me see…are we “persecuting” jews now? no…did they accept Jesus as the Messiah because of that or because of millions like mother Thersesa? i don’t think so

Justice, if words are of silver value, silence sometimes is of gold.

 

[JimG]

Justice2006:

Here is a very useful qoute for you:

"The most famous of all Jewish-Christian disputations was between **the apostate Jew Pablo Christiani ** and Moses Nachmanides (the Ramban).

This dispute took place in the year 1263. Are you trying to say that no Jew could believe in Jesus as Divine Messiah? Remember that Jesus preached to Jews, the first Christians were Jews, the Apostles were Jews. It was these Jewish apostles who testified to the truth of Christ the Jewish Messiah. It was only later that Paul (not only a Jew but a Pharisee) began to preach and make converts among the Gentiles. The preachiing of Christ was a fullfillment of the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. It was Jesus Messiah that they preached. Because they were Jews, they understood the scriptures and their fullfillment.