Pauline language in Romans, isn't it pointing toward imputation?

[guanophore]

To be quite frank, I had a higher opinion of Catholicism before CAF than after joining it. While many Catholic posters in here are superb, charitable, bright folks, I see the works-driven mentality alive and well. **People in here often feel so empowered by the rules and works of Catholicism that they experience a sense of elitism. I hear people **trashing people for missing some obligation Mass or for not buying the NFP rationale/dogma, or **people bragging **because they pray their rosaries x amount per week. I feel an enormous sense of “I play by the rules of the Church! I’m in! I’m ok! I’m saved” really more than I ironically see Protestants feeling “in” and saved? Catholicism seems more driven by following dogmas, obeying rituals and nuances, staying on a steady course of devotions and formulas. That bugs me.

I can see your point about people. However, what you have cited here are individuals who appear to lack the fruit of humility, then you proceed to judge the faith based upon the failings of individuals. This is a grave mistake.

If you are going to judge the teachings of Jesus by those that fail to follow them, then you will end up in the wrong place.

People’s lack of holiness should bother you, but much more, your own. If we are focused on how we each fall short of His calling, then we will not have much energy left to get “bugged” by other’s shorcomings.

It is very important that we understand the faith separate from those who claim to espouse it. Catholicism comprises the teachings of the Apostles. Yet, you are evaluating it based upon those who fall short! What sense does that make?

 Catechism here in my town is all about memorizing prayers.  Heck, as a sixth grade teacher, my Catholic kids in my class (and Protestants) learned infinitely more about Christ, Christianity, and Catholicism in my classroom than at a year's worth of catechism!?

It is a sad fact that catechesis is abysmal. I am glad that you are doing your part to correct this. I hope that more will undertake the same.However, if you focus on other people’s shortcomings instead of Christ, you will not survive.

We study religion in California sixth grade curriculum. Christianity comes up in the last trimester standards with the Roman Empire. My kids learned so much…Catechism here is just memorizing a bunch of prayers. And confirmation in high school is just more of the same plus 15 hours of community service.

Yes, I have taught the HS confirmation programs and I find the curriculum, as well as the spiritual state of the participants and their parents very discouraging.

I have plenty of concerns about Medievel innovations, papal claims, indulgences, purgatory,

This is a good thing. It is concerns that fuel study. It was these same concerns that got me to study my way back to the church!

and at a pastoral level I’m burned out locally. I grow tired of the ethnic pandering, the liberation theology malarcky, and several other things.

I think this is the core of the issue. Only time alone with God can cure this malady. And, when we are renewed by Him, all of these things quickly fall away as having little effect.

I’ve had some personal experiences and observations in the real world that I think point toward several Catholic beliefs being unfeasible.

This is interesting and I would like to hear more about it. It is statements like these that make me doubt your knowledge of the faith.

I won't elaborate in the forum on that.  I get burned out on the tribal stuff I see in here sometimes and the tiber swim team stuff. I get a tad fried.

Perhaps you need a break.

But I love the forum overall and think the people, by and large, are awesome in here. I'm done with Catholicism and I don't have a jag on for it. Not a hater.  Just have a ton of questions and some serious doubts and burn out.

It sounds like you are right on the edge of a growth spurt. I pray that you will be able to discern the Holy, infallible Bride of Christ over, above, and apart from all those who claim to belong to her. It is this understanding of Church that enables the faithful to persevere in the midst of the struggles that you are having.

By the way, Morton Kelsey has a great work on ministry burnout.

You will remain in my prayers, my brother.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

**I’m not just basing everything on individuals. I mentioned it as ONE factor. Obviously if individual fallibility and sinfulness or imperfection was my motivator, why would I be caucusing with Anglicans? And I’m not sure why you think that I’m in a state of feeling superior and holy while I judge others. That’s definitely NOT the case. I judge myself harder than anyone in the world so for you to admonish me to start taking a good hard look at myself, come on. Everyone I know tells me I need to ease off judging and analyzing my own failings and weaknesses. Trust me, friend, I’m not busy pointing out every flawed individual in the world. In IM’s my Catholic and Protestant and Orthodox friends have told me, “Don’t tell people your issues, concerns, problems, or personal thoughts in the forums. They’ll just crucify, guilt-trip, admonish, and blast ya!” Exhibit A…

Please read my comment below…**

I can see your point about people. However, what you have cited here are individuals who appear to lack the fruit of humility, then you proceed to judge the faith based upon the failings of individuals. This is a grave mistake.

If you are going to judge the teachings of Jesus by those that fail to follow them, then you will end up in the wrong place.

People’s lack of holiness should bother you, but much more, your own. If we are focused on how we each fall short of His calling, then we will not have much energy left to get “bugged” by other’s shorcomings.

It is very important that we understand the faith separate from those who claim to espouse it. Catholicism comprises the teachings of the Apostles. Yet, you are evaluating it based upon those who fall short! What sense does that make?

It is a sad fact that catechesis is abysmal. I am glad that you are doing your part to correct this. I hope that more will undertake the same.However, if you focus on other people’s shortcomings instead of Christ, you will not survive.

Yes, I have taught the HS confirmation programs and I find the curriculum, as well as the spiritual state of the participants and their parents very discouraging.

This is a good thing. It is concerns that fuel study. It was these same concerns that got me to study my way back to the church!

I think this is the core of the issue. Only time alone with God can cure this malady. And, when we are renewed by Him, all of these things quickly fall away as having little effect.

I’m just going to be honest here, this hurts. It’s offensive. After all your encouraging, thoughtful, charitable statements, you say this. I’m bummed. And it’s stuff like this that makes me not want to dialogue with you. I can’t believe you’d say something like this. I would never presume to pronounce a charge of ignoramus on you. Kindly don’t assume the same about me. This is just outrageous…
This is interesting and I would like to hear more about it. It is statements like these that make me doubt your knowledge of the faith.

Perhaps you need a break.

It sounds like you are right on the edge of a growth spurt. I pray that you will be able to discern the Holy, infallible Bride of Christ over, above, and apart from all those who claim to belong to her. It is this understanding of Church that enables the faithful to persevere in the midst of the struggles that you are having.

By the way, Morton Kelsey has a great work on ministry burnout.

You will remain in my prayers, my brother.

 

[SteveVH]

Thanks for your post, Steve. I’m truly trying to work this out and get over the conflicts intellectually and spiritually I’ve had for years now. I feel it’s coming to a head soon. A lot of prayer involved. I appreciate your thoughts…

I must join you in your frustration of the poor catechetics practiced in many of our parishes. That played a large part in my becoming a youth minister. The teens were learning about Jesus, but they had never really met Him, so to speak. I find that to be the key. Conversion must come before learning, otherwise it is a pointless exercise.

As for the actions of individual Catholics, that also is frustrating, but you know better than to leave the Truth because others may not practice it.

As for the subject of this thread, sometimes I forget to go right to the source. When I do I am always satisfied. Have you read the Catechism on the subject of “justification”. It cerainly doesn’t avoid the passages that seem to be troubling you, rather it embraces them.

Anyway, I get it, but hang in there.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

How dare you say something like this! I don’t mind your opinions, your approach to theology, your analysis, your disagreements. In fact, I welcome them. I love to be challenged and learn. But for God’s sake, this is personal and over the top insulting.

It seems that you don’t have much confidence in the power of God.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

**In our parish, catechesis is run VERY tightly and the lady in charge is a dragon lady hell-bent on memorization, doing things HER way, and the pastor is unrealistic and tries to micromanage. He requires parents to go to Mass every single week for the two years the kids are in first communion classes. Parents are tracked with a bar code on their donation envelopes. If they miss an envelope or two they’re called in and have to explain themselves. After they miss two their child is booted from the program. If the parents go out of town, they must provide a bulletin from the parish they attended Mass in out of town as evidence they went to Mass. This is just lunacy. Then he has the kids get his signature on a grid after each Mass they attend to show they were there as well. **
You can’t MAKE people want to go to Mass and care. It has to come from the heart 100%…these people can just quit coming to Mass after the two years and do it for show. This is the problem with the obligation mentality IMO.

So making a difference with people in this type of environment is not realistic. Even the music director is a type-A nutjob. He threw a punch at one of the choir ladies who coincidentally is also at the Anglican parish I’ve been attending for a couple of months. We also have a priest that has told us NFP is unrealistic (I happen to agree), that premarital sex is ok if it’s only done “here and there” and a pastor who has said that the catechism is only good for boring a person to sleep at night. LOL

I must join you in your frustration of the poor catechetics practiced in many of our parishes. That played a large part in my becoming a youth minister. The teens were learning about Jesus, but they had never really met Him, so to speak. I find that to be the key. Conversion must come before learning, otherwise it is a pointless exercise.

Great piont. But I’m not convinced I’ve left “The Truth.” If I felt it were the Truth 100% then I’d be going against my conscience and heart. You’d be correct!
As for the actions of individual Catholics, that also is frustrating, but you know better than to leave the Truth because others may not practice it.

**The catechism has not given me the solace it has given many in here. I’m so glad, praise God, that it has given you comfort and answered your questions. **
As for the subject of this thread, sometimes I forget to go right to the source. When I do I am always satisfied. Have you read the Catechism on the subject of “justification”. It cerainly doesn’t avoid the passages that seem to be troubling you, rather it embraces them.

We’ll see. Thanks for the kind wishes and upbeat message! Your posts are always encouraging and thoughtful!
Anyway, I get it, but hang in there.

 

[SteveVH]

**In our parish, catechesis is run VERY tightly and the lady in charge is a dragon lady hell-bent on memorization, doing things HER way, and the pastor is unrealistic and tries to micromanage. He requires parents to go to Mass every single week for the two years the kids are in first communion classes. Parents are tracked with a bar code on their donation envelopes. If they miss an envelope or two they’re called in and have to explain themselves. After they miss two their child is booted from the program. If the parents go out of town, they must provide a bulletin from the parish they attended Mass in out of town as evidence they went to Mass. This is just lunacy. Then he has the kids get his signature on a grid after each Mass they attend to show they were there as well. **
You can’t MAKE people want to go to Mass and care. It has to come from the heart 100%…these people can just quit coming to Mass after the two years and do it for show. This is the problem with the obligation mentality IMO.

So making a difference with people in this type of environment is not realistic. Even the music director is a type-A nutjob. He threw a punch at one of the choir ladies who coincidentally is also at the Anglican parish I’ve been attending for a couple of months. We also have a priest that has told us NFP is unrealistic (I happen to agree), that premarital sex is ok if it’s only done “here and there” and a pastor who has said that the catechism is only good for boring a person to sleep at night. LOL

You do have your hands full. Holy c_ _ _ batman! Have you ever thought of speaking to your Bishop. Actually, I’ve done that and to be honest it never changed a thing, but you never know. Do you have an opportunity to go to another parish?

Anyway, you’re definatley in my prayers. John Paul, II said that the greatest enemy of Christianity was Christians. I have to agree, especially when it entails the clergy…

God bless

 

[BryanM27]

**In our parish, catechesis is run VERY tightly and the lady in charge is a dragon lady hell-bent on memorization, doing things HER way, and the pastor is unrealistic and tries to micromanage. He requires parents to go to Mass every single week for the two years the kids are in first communion classes. Parents are tracked with a bar code on their donation envelopes. If they miss an envelope or two they’re called in and have to explain themselves. After they miss two their child is booted from the program. If the parents go out of town, they must provide a bulletin from the parish they attended Mass in out of town as evidence they went to Mass. This is just lunacy. Then he has the kids get his signature on a grid after each Mass they attend to show they were there as well. **
You can’t MAKE people want to go to Mass and care. It has to come from the heart 100%…these people can just quit coming to Mass after the two years and do it for show. This is the problem with the obligation mentality IMO.

So making a difference with people in this type of environment is not realistic. Even the music director is a type-A nutjob. He threw a punch at one of the choir ladies who coincidentally is also at the Anglican parish I’ve been attending for a couple of months. We also have a priest that has told us NFP is unrealistic (I happen to agree), that premarital sex is ok if it’s only done “here and there” and a pastor who has said that the catechism is only good for boring a person to sleep at night. LOL

I agree with Steve, you’ve got your hands full. You could try going to your bishop, but another approach would be to ask around your parrish and find other adults who are just as disgruntled with the way things are and petition the church leadership to make changes. If you get the right people you’ll find out real quick that money talks.

If that doesn’t work, I would suggest simply finding another nearby parrish.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Unfortunately the money that talks in our parish, which is abundantly wealthy, comes from rich Portuguese dairymen, the enormous Mexican population, some wealthy happy Italians, and the rest is gravy. 9 out of 10 people I talk to LOVE the parish. I’m always the bad cop? And the ones that aren’t crazy about it have that “oh well” mentality and they’re anemic lol…Sadly, our entire diocese leaves a lousy taste in my mouth. Our parish did a parish-wide survey recently asking how happy or disatisfied people were in 25 or so different areas. When they published the survey that only like 15% of the parishoners bothered to fill out, it was overwhelmingly an “I adore this parish!” sentiment…according to the church. I guess I’m the fly in the ointment!

I agree with Steve, you’ve got your hands full. You could try going to your bishop, but another approach would be to ask around your parrish and find other adults who are just as disgruntled with the way things are and petition the church leadership to make changes. If you get the right people you’ll find out real quick that money talks.

If that doesn’t work, I would suggest simply finding another nearby parrish.

 

[Soldier_X]

Unfortunately the money that talks in our parish, which is abundantly wealthy, comes from rich Portuguese dairymen, the enormous Mexican population, some wealthy happy Italians, and the rest is gravy. 9 out of 10 people I talk to LOVE the parish. I’m always the bad cop? And the ones that aren’t crazy about it have that “oh well” mentality and they’re anemic lol…Sadly, our entire diocese leaves a lousy taste in my mouth. Our parish did a parish-wide survey recently asking how happy or disatisfied people were in 25 or so different areas. When they published the survey that only like 15% of the parishoners bothered to fill out, it was overwhelmingly an “I adore this parish!” sentiment…according to the church. I guess I’m the fly in the ointment!

Maybe it’s just proof that you are capable of independent assessment of situations! I’ve always felt like “fly in the ointment” language was a little bit harsh

 

[Soldier_X]

And yes, the Pauline language is pointing toward imputation.

 

[BryanM27]

Unfortunately the money that talks in our parish, which is abundantly wealthy, comes from rich Portuguese dairymen, the enormous Mexican population, some wealthy happy Italians, and the rest is gravy. 9 out of 10 people I talk to LOVE the parish. I’m always the bad cop? And the ones that aren’t crazy about it have that “oh well” mentality and they’re anemic lol…Sadly, our entire diocese leaves a lousy taste in my mouth. Our parish did a parish-wide survey recently asking how happy or disatisfied people were in 25 or so different areas. When they published the survey that only like 15% of the parishoners bothered to fill out, it was overwhelmingly an “I adore this parish!” sentiment…according to the church. I guess I’m the fly in the ointment!

Which diocese are you in?

 

[guanophore]

**I’m not just basing everything on individuals. I mentioned it as ONE factor. Obviously if individual fallibility and sinfulness or imperfection was my motivator, why would I be caucusing with Anglicans? **

I did get that you are experiencing a sense of rebellion against the Magesterium, but it all seemed based in your disdain for certain individuals in that hierarchy that did not seem to meet your standards of worthiness to occupy the positions they had.
gurneyhalleck1;6715280:

And I'm not sure why you think that I'm in a state of feeling superior and holy while I judge others.

I did not.

The fact that you are judging others and finding them wanting does not necessarily equate to you thinking you are superior or more holy.

That’s definitely NOT the case. I judge myself harder than anyone in the world so for you to admonish me to start taking a good hard look at myself, come on.

Perhaps the criticism of self and others is the source of the problem? When I suggested spending time with the Lord, that is what I was thinking. We are, by nature, critical beings ,of ourselves, and of others.Our minds by nature tend to try to make sense of things, to organize that which does not seem to fit into a theory that does fit.

Everyone I know tells me I need to ease off judging and analyzing my own failings and weaknesses. Trust me, friend, I’m not busy pointing out every flawed individual in the world.

No, I did not get that impression. Just those in positions of authority in the Catholic Church that have lost your trust.

They’ll just crucify, guilt-trip, admonish, and blast ya!" Exhibit A…

If you think my encouragement to spend time alone with God equals these things, then I apologize. I personally find it curative, especially with burnout. I am just one beggar reminding another beggar where to find the bread. However, if offends you, I do not need to do so.

I’m just going to be honest here, this hurts. It’s offensive. After all your encouraging, thoughtful, charitable statements, you say this. I’m bummed. And it’s stuff like this that makes me not want to dialogue with you. I can’t believe you’d say something like this. I would never presume to pronounce a charge of ignoramus on you. Kindly don’t assume the same about me. This is just outrageous…

I eagerly await your evidence that the Catholic Church teaches any of the things you have charged in this thread. I will concede that individual Catholics do believe and practice “works” salvation, but it is an error. I used to do it myself! I could not find it in the teachings of the Church. What I did learn is that most Catholics have a deficient understanding of grace. Sojourning among the Baptists really helped me get cured of this.

What would happen if you were wrong? What if your ideas of what the Church taught were not accurate? Is this such a bad thing?

 

[guanophore]

How dare you say something like this! I don’t mind your opinions, your approach to theology, your analysis, your disagreements. In fact, I welcome them. I love to be challenged and learn. But for God’s sake, this is personal and over the top insulting.

It is not my intention to insult you. I am trying to give you some plain feedback about how you come across. When you present your theology this way, it really sounds like you don’t have much confidence in God to accomplish what He said He would do.

 

[guanophore]

**In our parish, catechesis is run VERY tightly and the lady in charge is a dragon lady hell-bent on memorization, doing things HER way, and the pastor is unrealistic and tries to micromanage. He requires parents to go to Mass every single week for the two years the kids are in first communion classes. Parents are tracked with a bar code on their donation envelopes. If they miss an envelope or two they’re called in and have to explain themselves. After they miss two their child is booted from the program. If the parents go out of town, they must provide a bulletin from the parish they attended Mass in out of town as evidence they went to Mass. This is just lunacy. Then he has the kids get his signature on a grid after each Mass they attend to show they were there as well. **

Wow! It is no wonder you are frustrated and discouraged.

You can’t MAKE people want to go to Mass and care. It has to come from the heart 100%…these people can just quit coming to Mass after the two years and do it for show. This is the problem with the obligation mentality IMO.

I have problems with teh obligation mentality too, and I am sure there are other facxtors, but it seems your heart is desiring fellowship with others who come to Mass to celebrate in joy, and not because they are compulsed.

So making a difference with people in this type of environment is not realistic. Even the music director is a type-A nutjob. He threw a punch at one of the choir ladies who coincidentally is also at the Anglican parish I’ve been attending for a couple of months. We also have a priest that has told us NFP is unrealistic (I happen to agree), that premarital sex is ok if it’s only done “here and there” and a pastor who has said that the catechism is only good for boring a person to sleep at night. LOL

Definitely sounds like you need a new parish. I will pray for them. It seems like a serious spiritual attack.

Great piont. But I’m not convinced I’ve left “The Truth.” If I felt it were the Truth 100% then I’d be going against my conscience and heart. You’d be correct!

What draws you to the Anglican communion, rather than to another Catholic parish?

The catechism has not given me the solace it has given many in here. I’m so glad, praise God, that it has given you comfort and answered your questions.

Are you frustrated that the Catechism does not explain sufficiently how come there are poor examples in high places?

What do you think God is calling you to do in the face of these gross spiritual insults?