Paul's Thorn in the Flesh

[ProVobis]

Barbs, briars, thorns… same thing.

Maybe but you didn’t cross reference all the possible synonyms of thorn in the English Bible(s) to make your comparisons. I didn’t mean to make Knox the issue.

I tend to agree with DaveBj on this, that yours is only a particular interpretation of St. Paul. And based more on semantics than anything else. I’m sure there are many which can’t be disproven.

(edited) I just noticed that this is a spin-off from another thread. So my apologies to those who made similar arguments to mine.

 

[TimothyH]

No, and there won’t be enough evidence, because it all boils down to . . . dare I say it? . . . one’s personal interpretation of the passage in question. Paul didn’t think to tell us specifically what he was talking about, so we’re all just guessing, based on what we think he was talking about.

I’m not guessing. I am using evidence from Scripture that Paul was talking about Gentiles.

Yes, that is what I think, but it is more than a guess.

I’m sorry I wasn’t clearer in the original post. I was hoping someone could post what they think the thorn might have been based on evidence, reason.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

(edited) I just noticed that this is a spin-off from another thread. So my apologies to those who made similar arguments to mine.

No, the other thread is eight years old and should not have been reopened. It is a subject of some interest to me and I started a new one.

-Tim-

 

[SuS33]

What if he meant his past sins haunting him? What if he was not able to forgive himself fully for persecuting christians? That is something Satan can work with to hurt him and cuz it makes a person think they are not worthy, and also a reminder that he was saved by Jesus both on the Cross and on the road to Damascus and without Jesus he couldn’t have done all that he did. That should keep him from elevating himself.

Just my theory, what do you think?

 

[friardchips]

Lots of theories but little evidence to convince me that I’m wrong.

Well, gentiles were still people, and so to be filled with the Holy Spirit I would imagine inspired love, not anger.

Second, by this assertion you are stating that gentiles are a kind of thorn which demons brought to him, which doesn’t really make sense, as St. Paul’s mission was to preach to them given by our Creator.

 

[friardchips]

In accordance with several other posters, I have always believed that the thorn represented a physical aliment that plagued St. Paul. Maybe it was his poor vision? I think it is possible that St. Paul was the first stigmatist and the stigmatas were the source of his pain.

Stigmata, are not demonic!

 

[friardchips]

Since I have Epilepsy, I always wanted it to be Epilepsy myself. Anybody that has the proverbial thorn in their flesh but still makes you stronger spiritually, believe whatever you want when it comes to that!

We don’t believe in religious relativism, as in, anything goes, as truth. There are definite truths within the whole Truth.

What you say about things making us stronger, is true. All things can sanctify us. ‘Stronger’, in this sense, is to learn that we have to rely on our Creator completely, and not on our…selves.

Our Creator does not give thorns of suffering but does allow for them, and in some cases, these manifest as holy signs for the good of the faithful, after those chosen, give their assent (in the cases of saints, for example). And in the case of St. Paul, his thorn chipped away at his pride. It was a personal thorn that was eventually included for us in Scripture. But he did not know why he had it, at first. We know this because he asked for it to be gone. And we know it was an infliction brought on by a demon. Epilepsy, on the other hand, brought on by diabolical activity, is rare, as possession is rare. And I don’t believe St. Paul was possessed by an evil spirit! Epilepsy, otherwise, is a natural sickness. But his thorn would have been more along the lines of demonic oppression. So, epilepsy is not likely, as demons are not natural occurrences and neither are their oppressive tendencies; rather, they are supernatural.

We can estimate that the demon must have been allowed only after St. Paul’s conversion because demons manifest in a more obvious way as the soul moves closer to Heaven. Again, pointing to an affliction of external temptations.

 

[SonOfMan]

A thorn in flesh, as I was given to understand, is a strong temptation for the flesh. And for that temptation to persistently arise, there has to have been a tempter. And this “thorn” being ‘temptation’, is supported by the passage in which he was empathising with people about their ill desires, by saying how he does the things he does not want to do - only to empathise, mind you - but then goes on to emphatically state that he has “kept the faith”; IOW, despite, his temptations, he has kept to the Commandments and not given in, as an example to those to whom he preached, who might have been prone to giving in or who felt like giving in to the sinful ways of the flesh.

Thats how I understand it as well. A literal thorn in flesh would be a nagging, persistent pain. A thorn in the flesh in a spiritual sense is a weakness of the flesh; a nagging, persistent temptation.

 

[friardchips]

Thats how I understand it as well. A literal thorn in flesh would be a nagging, persistent pain. A thorn in the flesh in a spiritual sense is a weakness of the flesh; a nagging, persistent temptation.

Precisely.

 

[TK421]

St & Doctor of the Church Alphonsus Liguori, writing on the subject of chastity, interpreted Paul’s thorn as a temptation of the flesh.

The epistles don’t offer a precise explanation and I would imagine the Holy Spirit did this on purpose. A thorn that plagues you - any thorn imaginable - can be prayed over to be removed, and yet not removed. In all things, Paul tells us, “His grace is enough”. God permits the assaults of Satan to ravage mankind so that man will discover his inability to overcome, and therefore man might turn to Him in prayer, and in so doing, be granted the grace to overcome.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Actually, it’s more likely that the thorns were Judaizers, Jewish believers who insisted that Gentile believers had to be circumcised and taught to follow the Torah. His conflicts with them were documented in the Acts of the Apostles, and one entire letter (Galatians) was written to counter their doctrine.

Edit: The above should be prefixed with “If one believes that the thorns were human beings . . .” Obviously, if one believes that the thorn was an eye disease or sexual temptation, that’s a whole 'nother story.

Actually, I think this is the best interpretation. Paul was definitely frustrated and blocked by the Judaizers, and wrote about them often. They were the ones who ultimately sent him to his doom in Rome.

 

[bibcat]

Remember that Paul highly advanced in his study and understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures. Remember also that he was a Pharisee, a strict separationist who prior to his conversion would never have associated with Gentiles.

But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then those of them whom you let remain shall be as pricks in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall trouble you in the land where you dwell. (Numbers 33:55)

know assuredly that the LORD your God will not continue to drive out these nations before you; but they shall be a snare and a trap for you, a scourge on your sides, and thorns in your eyes, till you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you. (Joshua 23:13)
**
But godless men are all like thorns** that are thrown away;
for they cannot be taken with the hand;
(2 Samuel 23:6)

Paul was sent to the godless Gentiles. The Gentiles were the thorns in Paul’s flesh. This is my opinion.

-Tim-

I agree. If our Savior allowed his faithful servant Paul to continually suffer with a physical ailment, then he’d be nothing more than the cruel and aloof God of Job. And we know he’s not that.

 

[TK421]

Millions of people as we speak continually suffer in the service of God with a physical ailment. He is not cruel in permitting this to happen.

 

[tryphon]

2 Samuel 23:6 Sinful men he treats like briars, too sturdy to be plucked away with the hand, (spinae)
newadvent.org/bible/2sa023.htm

The first translation for the Latin “spinae” is, indeed, thorns. (finally I get to use the eight years of Latin studies I did in the Italian school system!)

 

[LoveMercyGrace]

Since I have Epilepsy, I always wanted it to be Epilepsy myself. Anybody that has the proverbial thorn in their flesh but still makes you stronger spiritually, believe whatever you want when it comes to that!

I have no sources other than our parish priest- he referred to the thorns as having seizures

aka Epilepsy. He said theologians now generally believe this was the thorn in St Paul’s

side.

this may be worthy of research to learn more on their thoughts.