Pause now before we go further

[yeshua]

Greetings,

There is a diversity in what is an Eastern or Oriental Catholic, there currently is no right answer, however much one person might say. For every remark from Bishop A there will be a remark from Patriarch B, and each person is right to listen to their spiritual father and tradition. My participation on this forum, and I assume a great many other Eastern and Oriental Catholics, will only increase once this is understood by all. I originally came to this forum to answer the Eastern and Oriental Catholic question (that is, “What are we as Eastern and Oriental Catholics supposed to believe?”), and if things proceed down the path that posts are showing, we will violate the very reason why this new forum is in existence.

To be honest, my posting of this is completely out of fear. I am afraid that my catholicity will be doubted, my tradition will be scrutinized, and that some of my fellow Eastern and Oriental Catholics who defend their orthodoxy (lower case “o”) will find themselves marginalized. Already, a member of my own church has had his catholicity doubted, by a fellow Eastern Catholic at that. This is not a matter of standing up and defending our positions, we do that regularly, it’s a matter of being told we are not “faithful” Eastern and Oriental Catholics, or having every experience we have had in our church, from patriarch to deacon, labeled as wrong; as if a casual reader who is Latin or a fervent Byzantine poster has any authority to say such.

Again, there is no right to denounce the catholicity of an Eastern or Oriental Catholic based on their experiences and derived beliefs, and no one, from the Latinized Coptic to the over-zealous Maronite that I am has the right to dictate to another the validity of that experience, which are going to be stark and very different. The minute that someone draws the line between a “faithful” Eastern and Oriental Catholic and not, I am gone, and I know I won’t be alone. These questions deserve an air of respect and diversity, an atmosphere these issues need if we are every going to succeed in answering them.

My apologies if I have offended, but I rigidly stand next to what I say.

Peace and God Bless!

 

[SiempreFiel]

I am afraid that my catholicity will be doubted, my tradition will be scrutinized, and that some of my fellow Eastern and Oriental Catholics who defend their orthodoxy (lower case “o”) will find themselves marginalized.

The only thing that I’m really afraid of is to find out that the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Roman Catholic Church do not profess one faith but rather two faiths that contradict one another.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Greetings,

There is a diversity in what is an Eastern or Oriental Catholic, there currently is no right answer, however much one person might say. For every remark from Bishop A there will be a remark from Patriarch B, and each person is right to listen to their spiritual father and tradition. My participation on this forum, and I assume a great many other Eastern and Oriental Catholics, will only increase once this is understood by all. I originally came to this forum to answer the Eastern and Oriental Catholic question (that is, “What are we as Eastern and Oriental Catholics supposed to believe?”), and if things proceed down the path that posts are showing, we will violate the very reason why this new forum is in existence.

To be honest, my posting of this is completely out of fear. I am afraid that my catholicity will be doubted, my tradition will be scrutinized, and that some of my fellow Eastern and Oriental Catholics who defend their orthodoxy (lower case “o”) will find themselves marginalized. Already, a member of my own church has had his catholicity doubted, by a fellow Eastern Catholic at that. This is not a matter of standing up and defending our positions, we do that regularly, it’s a matter of being told we are not “faithful” Eastern and Oriental Catholics, or having every experience we have had in our church, from patriarch to deacon, labeled as wrong; as if a casual reader who is Latin or a fervent Byzantine poster has any authority to say such.

Again, there is no right to denounce the catholicity of an Eastern or Oriental Catholic based on their experiences and derived beliefs, and no one, from the Latinized Coptic to the over-zealous Maronite that I am has the right to dictate to another the validity of that experience, which are going to be stark and very different. The minute that someone draws the line between a “faithful” Eastern and Oriental Catholic and not, I am gone, and I know I won’t be alone. These questions deserve an air of respect and diversity, an atmosphere these issues need if we are every going to succeed in answering them.

My apologies if I have offended, but I rigidly stand next to what I say.

Peace and God Bless!

Very sad. Why would any Catholic be critical of another valid tradition in the Church? It would be one thing if someone went completely berserk, claiming the Pope is not infallible or doesn’t have primacy or that Jesus is not divine, etc. - then we’d have issues, regardless of who they were or from what tradition they come from. But to scrutinize someone for a different outlook is not good. God is infinite, and thus there are infinite ways to look at Him and His Mystery. Us humans have only come up with a dozen or so (Latin, Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic, etc.), but each, though they are different, express the same Mystery.

Again, don’t criticize a different Catholic theological expression!

 

[yeshua]

The only thing that I’m really afraid of is to find out that the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Roman Catholic Church do not profess one faith but rather two faiths that contradict one another.

To be honest, you might presented with posters and their experiences that show that. It’s not a rarity, especially on these boards, I know the two of us can both conjure some names (my own experience at that).

All I am affirming is that when this debate does spark, no one poster has the right to denounce the other as not “Catholic” enough, or fails to meet the requirements of being “Catholic.” This attitude is what shoved the Eastern and Oriental Catholics into the shadows as the Orthodox-Latin mess sprang in the Eastern Christianity forum.

Peace and God Bless!

 

[jimmy]

Thankyou yeshua for posting this. I have been having the same thought. I feel like we have been backed into a corner. I, as another overzelous Maronite, hope that there will be some respect for the corresponding traditions.

 

[SiempreFiel]

Thankyou yeshua for posting this. I have been having the same thought. I feel like we have been backed into a corner. I, as another overzelous Maronite, hope that there will be some respect for the corresponding traditions.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how respectful have we (Latin Catholics) been to your traditions since the opening of this sub-forum?

 

[Threepwood]

On a level of 1 to 10, how respectful have we (Latin Catholics) been to your tradiditions since the opening of this sub-forum?

It would be one thing if someone went completely berserk, claiming the Pope is not infallible

The Eastern Catholic Churches do not differ only in tradition. There is a different theology. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have their best theologians discussing these issues. The Catholic side opened the door to the post-schism councils being local councils with the most recent ecumenical dialog, which would mean non-Latin Catholics would not be held to it. Calling someone berserk for wrestling with what the Vatican and many Eastern Catholics bishops say is a justifiable belief does not respect either side.

 

[Walking_Home]

The Eastern Catholic Churches do not differ only in tradition. There is a different theology. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have their best theologians discussing these issues. **The Catholic side opened the door to the post-schism councils being local councils with the most recent ecumenical dialog, which would mean non-Latin Catholics would not be held to it. **Calling someone berserk for wrestling with what the Vatican and many Eastern Catholics bishops say is a justifiable belief does not respect either side.

---

Could you please clarify the above. Are you saying that the Catholic Church is in the process of becoming an umbrella type structure with no unity of Faith.

 

[Threepwood]

---

Could you please clarify the above. Are you saying that the Catholic Church is in the process of becoming an umbrella type structure with no unity of Faith.

Is the Vatican saying that the Catholic Church is in the process of becoming an umbrella type structure with no unity of Faith?

Statement of the Joint Catholic-Orthodox Commission
Ravenna,Italy
13 October 2007
orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/130.aspx#2

Unlike diocesan and regional synods, an ecumenical council is not an “institution” whose frequency can be regulated by canons; it is rather an “event”, a kairos inspired by the Holy Spirit who guides the Church so as to engender within it the institutions which it needs and which respond to its nature. This harmony between the Church and the councils is so profound that, even after the break between East and West which rendered impossible the holding of ecumenical councils in the strict sense of the term, both Churches continued to hold councils whenever serious crises arose. These councils gathered together the bishops of local Churches in communion with the See of Rome or, although understood in a different way, with the See of Constantinople, respectively. In the Roman Catholic Church, some of these councils held in the West were regarded as ecumenical. This situation, which obliged both sides of Christendom to convoke councils proper to each of them, favoured dissentions which contributed to mutual estrangement. The means which will allow the **re-establishment of ecumenical consensus must be sought **out.

 

[dbacks5439]

It’s not so much what each side believes, but how they believe. To use the American and the Chinese example, there is a picture that both look at. The American will spend more time looking in the foreground whereas the Chinese person will spend more time looking in the background (It could be the other way around, but the point is the same). Both are looking at the same picture, but draw different conclusions about it that are essentially the same. Same is going on here. We are all looking at the Truth as revealed through both Scripture and Tradition. It’s just that both sides have a different perspective, but both draw the same conclusions. There are things that the West may not see but the East can help them, and vice-versa.

 

[Ghosty]

I’m glad you posted this, Yeshua. On the bright side there will always be fellow Catholics who understand and are willing to go to bat for you.

Perhaps perma-links to Orientale Lumen, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, and Orientalium Dignitas, should be posted.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Joab_Anias]

I’m glad you posted this, Yeshua.

I am too. I am anxious to hear the Church position on what establishes us in communion much more than any differences though I still find the difference interesting.

From your observation of the non-Catholic EO Church how would you say the Eastern Catholic Church differ in such a way that puts us in communion? I ask from a genuine interest and in no way to be provocative or inflamitory. I think we have had enough of that (not mean to speak for all). I know I have.

Peace.

 

[East_and_West]

The only thing that I’m really afraid of is to find out that the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Roman Catholic Church do not profess one faith but rather two faiths that contradict one another.

I am concerned with exactly the same thing. Some Eastern Catholics (remember, i attend a Ruthenian Parish) have taken the Pope’s call for delatinization as an excuse for a blatant rejection of Catholic dogma. Not all do this. But in the case of others, I wonder whey they are not simply Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Aramis]

The only thing that I’m really afraid of is to find out that the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Roman Catholic Church do not profess one faith but rather two faiths that contradict one another.

That very dichotomy is part of what creates schisms…

At the moment, those are exemplified by FSSJ and SSPX supporters.

But, when looking at it, the faiths do differ from Rite to Rite and Sui Iuris Church to Sui Iuris Church. Always have, and always will.

Mainly because, as Humans, we are frail things, prone to error and misunderstanding.

THe thing is that the faith of the Maronite, of the Ruthenian, of the Roman, and of the Copt, these all share the same fundamental truths, and while the other elements of faith differ, all are in fact valid expressions of the Truth of Christ.

 

[ForeverAdam]

THe thing is that the faith of the Maronite, of the Ruthenian, of the Roman, and of the Copt, these all share the same fundamental truths, and while the other elements of faith differ, all are in fact valid expressions of the Truth of Christ.

What are some of the differences in belief between the Roman-rite and Eastern-rite Catholics. Thanks.

God bless,

Adam

 

[yeshua]

From your observation of the -]non-Catholic/-] EO Church how would you say the Eastern Catholic Church differ in such a way that puts us in communion?

Joab,

First, there is no Eastern Catholic Church. There are a variety of Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches.

What separates the EC from the EO is the intent on being in communion with Rome. Mind you, many of these churches existed and came into union far before the definitions of infallibility, IC, and such existed. As such, these were non-issues when communing with Rome. The most prevalent example would be the Melkites who shared union with both Rome and Constantinople for a dramatically long period of time after the schism, again, lacking the developments found in the West. This is why the Melkites in particular will be very fervent (rightly so) defending their lack of original sin, purgatory, IC as defined by being free from original sin (which again they don’t have), etc. I would encourage you to look up the words of the Melkite Patriarchs to hear their views of their office versus Rome’s; you will be surprised.

What separates the OC from the EO is tradition and history. Those liturgical and praxis qualities found in the Oriental Orthodox are what the Oriental Catholics share. To me, this is a non issue, from my personal experience with Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox, their degree of separation is not noticeable beyond their practice, however, I come from a place where EO, EC, OC, OO commune amongst each other. Again, the issue that would separate the Orientals from the Easterners would be the original intent in communing with Rome.

I don’t subscribe to the Western debates between Oriental and Byzantine theology, from pastoral counsel and personal experience, these issues tend to be resolved, and near fruition at the ecclesiastical level. This would also involve Latin commentary on Syriac tradition, which more often than not is flagrantly misrepresented to defend things such as the IC and universal jurisdiction.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[ForeverAdam]

From your observation of the non-Catholic EO Church how would you say the Eastern Catholic Church differ in such a way that puts us in communion? I ask from a genuine interest and in no way to be provocative or inflammatory. I think we have had enough of that (not mean to speak for all). I know I have.

Was it really necessary to add “Non-Catholic” in describing the Orthodox Church? I think people get the message that you weren’t referring to the Roman Catholic Church without you adding that rather provocative word. I guess you’ve not really had enough of the inflammatory words.

God bless,

Adam

 

[East_and_West]

Was it really necessary to add “Non-Catholic” in describing the Orthodox Church? I think people get the message that you weren’t referring to the Roman Catholic Church without you adding that rather provocative word. I guess you’ve not really had enough of the inflammatory words.

God bless,

Adam

Well its messy. You have to understand that. From a traditional Catholic prespective, the Churches that are not in communion with Rome are neither Catholic nor are they Orthodox, since some of their teachings are false. Yet the still refer to themselves as such. I would understand why some one might want to call them “non-catholic Orthodox” since we are the true orthodox Catholics. But then, those terms carry so much historical baggage. Try to understand what is going on while we stumble around for the appropriate terms.

 

[Woodstock]

Well its messy. You have to understand that. From a traditional Catholic prespective, the Churches that are not in communion with Rome are neither Catholic nor are they Orthodox, since some of their teachings are false. Yet the still refer to themselves as such. I would understand why some one might want to call them “non-catholic Orthodox” since we are the true orthodox Catholics. But then, those terms carry so much historical baggage. Try to understand what is going on while we stumble around for the appropriate terms.

They were just told they couldn’t call themselves Orthodox Catholics because it is too confusing for those who don’t understand who is who. Why would you turn around and do it to them, knowing they can’t respond?

Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Orthodox
Eastern Catholic
Oriental Catholic
Roman or Latin Catholic

That’s not hard and doesn’t need any stumbling about to figure out.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Was it really necessary to add “Non-Catholic” in describing the Orthodox Church? I think people get the message that you weren’t referring to the Roman Catholic Church without you adding that rather provocative word. I guess you’ve not really had enough of the inflammatory words.

God bless,

Adam

Perhaps I wasn’t necessary after all. I am sorry. I didn’t think about how that would make anyone feel. Its a side effect of the new differentiation here. I will try to be more sensitive in the future.

As I am thinking about it and reading other posts I see The Eastern Catholics meantion themselves as EC and the otherwise out of communion Eastern Churches calling themselves EO.

To me Orthodox has always meant correct. For me its just as offensive to say that you are Orthodox at the exclusion of the EC or RCC. We find no need to add RC Orthodox or EC Orthodox for the most part. Perhaps the O is what needs to drop.

Anyway, I honestly didn’t mean any harm by it and again hope you can forgive my insensitivity.

Peace.