Pay, convert or die. Muslims, do you believe this?

[Per_Crucem]

And we don’t disagree about the Quran and what God said to Muhammad in the Quran. Put the bible aside and you end up with a bunch of books and scriptures that you have differences on. Why don’t you understand that this discussion is pointless?

Muslims differ on what Muhammad said and did (the hadiths).

Christians do not differ on what Jesus said and did. It isn’t that complex.

 

[ptisme]

Well guess what! The government doesn’t care much if someone has sex before marriage. Once you start having sex in the public the government will get involved. Don’t most secular governments have similar laws?

Sure. But sex behind closed doors is something that can get you killed in Islamic states….

 

[peace_at_last]

Historically the crucifixion of Jesus is accepted, so my words actually mean something.

Islam kills apostates and you accept that, Christians don’t. Therefore Christianity is higher morally.

If by history you mean non-religious texts, then according to that kinda history you can’t even prove Jesus existed, let alone being crucified.

Fine, you want to continue this game: since Christians believe killing and stoning the following was acceptable according to the rule of God for hundreds of years, they are morally inferior to Muslims:

“People Who Don’t Listen to Priests”(Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
“Witches”(Exodus 22:17 NAB)
“Homosexuals”(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Fortunetellers"(Leviticus 20:27 NAB)"
Hitting parents"(Exodus 21:15 NAB)"
Cursing Parents"(Proverbs 20:20 NAB)"(Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Sacrificing to other Gods (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Non-believers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
False Prophets(Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Entire Town and livestock if some of them Worships Another God(Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night(Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Apostates(Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)(Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Blasphemy(Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)(Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

 

[ptisme]

Muslims and Christians agree God is good. Yet one book commands its followers to “chop off heads and finger tips and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding.” The other tells us to “love one another as I have loved you”.

Following this thread really sheds light on the minuscule differences between Catholics and Protestants….

 

[peace_at_last]

Sure. But sex behind closed doors is something that can get you killed in Islamic states….

According to the rule of Islam it is no ones business what sin someone commits behind closed doors, except for God and the sinner.

 

[ptisme]

According to the rule of Islam it is no ones business what sin someone commits behind closed doors, except for God and the sinner.

I feel like I’m talking to Screwtape….
"2002-AUG-25: Nigeria: The Upper Sharia court in the northern state of Niger has sentenced two people to be stoned to death. Ahmadu Ibrahim, 32, and his lover Fatima Usman had confessed to pre-marital sex.

 

[ptisme]

You can’t make this stuff up, this is truly something out of middle earth….
“2002-JUN: Nigeria: A Sharai court convicted a man, Yunusa Rafin Chiwaya, of adultery in the northern state of Bauchi, and sentenced him to be stoned to death. He had confessed to engaging in sexual activities with his neighbor’s wife, and had declined multiple opportunities to withdraw his confession.** The woman in the case was cleared after she swore on the Qur’an that she had been hypnotized before she left home with Chiwaya**.”

 

[Catholic_farmer]

What you quoted gives me an impression that is the exact opposite of what you were claiming. They are saying someone will come after Jesus.

How much more clear could it be, my friend? He told us the holy Spirit would guide us. No one else. How else could our peaceful religion survive through heresy, persecution, and reformation. We are still here and will be until the end of time. Jesus also assured us that good will triumph over evil.

(formerly known as “lutheran farmer”)

 

[ptisme]

2002:Bauchi: A woman, Adama Unusua, 19, was sentenced to 100 lashes by a Bauchi court, for engaging in sexual intercourse with her fiancé. She was pregnant at the time of the trial.
religioustolerance.org/isl_adul1.htm

 

[ptisme]

2001-DEC: Sudan: An 18 year-old pregnant woman, Abok Alfa Akok, was accused by her husband of adultery. She claimed that she had been raped. The man co-accused with Abok was not tried due to lack of evidence. She was tried, even though the country claims that Sharia would not be applied to non-Muslims. In Sudan, a married person found guilty of adultery is executed by stoning; an unmarried person receives 100 lashes. She had no lawyer, and was unaware of her rights during the trial. She could not speak or understand Arabic, the language of the court. The Court of Appeal in Southern Darfur overturned the death sentence and sent the case back to the lawyer court which set punishment at 75 lashes. By immediately executing the sentence, she was denied her right to obtain legal advice and/or an launch an appeal prior to the beating.

 

[peace_at_last]

Muslims differ on what Muhammad said and did (the hadiths).

Christians do not differ on what Jesus said and did. It isn’t that complex.

In the canonical gospels like the Quran there no difference.
In non-canonical gospels and other Christian scripture, just like the hadith, there are differences. Yes, it isn’t that complex.

 

[dronald]

1-The ISIS shout Allah Akbar all the time. But that doesn’t mean they are acting in accordance with Islam.

Thousands at one rally in Iran? Come on.

2-Sources then we can discuss that hadith.

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah's Apostle [Muhammad] saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6981:

Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.

Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6983:

Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.

Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6984:

Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.

Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

3-You claim Christ changed the world yet his followers changed not a little (the inquisitions) and still have not changed:

So? The entire point of Christ’s coming is to teach that we are sinful and cannot be perfect. That’s why we need him.

"President Bush said to all of us: ‘I am driven with a mission from God’. God would tell me, ‘George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan’. And I did. And then God would tell me ‘George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq’. And I did."

And you claim Islam is in the dark ages.

LOL! Oh, Bush. There’s a difference between interpreting Jesus’s words as “Go liberate Afghanistan” and apparent schizophrenia. Come to think of it, Bush reminds me a lot of Muhammad; getting random messages to go “liberate” others with killing.

 

[Per_Crucem]

If by history you mean non-religious texts, then according to that kinda history you can’t even prove Jesus existed, let alone being crucified.

Only if you consider Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus, and Lucian of Samosata to be religious sources.

 

[Per_Crucem]

In the canonical gospels like the Quran there no difference.

Which Qu’ran, the one before or after it was burned?

In non-canonical gospels and other Christian scripture, just like the hadith, there are differences. Yes, it isn’t that complex.

There is no other Christian Scripture and the non-canonical gospels are only considered authoritative by certain non-Christian sects.

 

[dronald]

If by history you mean non-religious texts, then according to that kinda history you can’t even prove Jesus existed, let alone being crucified.

Actually you can; and it’s been done. It has been almost unanimously rejected that Jesus never existed, and also accepted that He was crucified.

*In modern scholarship, the baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion are considered to be two historically certain facts about Jesus.[4][6] For example, James Dunn states that these “two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent” and “rank so high on the ‘almost impossible to doubt or deny’ scale of historical facts” that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus.[4] Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.[7] John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.[8] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now “firmly established” that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[9] Craig Blomberg states that most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.[5] Christopher M. Tuckett states that, although the exact reasons for the death of Jesus are hard to determine, one of the indisputable facts about him is that he was crucified.[10]

While scholars agree on the historicity of the crucifixion, they differ on the reason and context for it, e.g., both E. P. Sanders and Paula Fredriksen support the historicity of the crucifixion, but contend that Jesus did not foretell his own crucifixion, and that his prediction of the crucifixion is a “church creation” (p.126).[11] Geza Vermes also views the crucifixion as a historical event but provides his own explanation and background for it.[11]

John P. Meier views the crucifixion of Jesus as historical fact and states that based on the criterion of embarrassment Christians would not have invented the painful death of their leader.[12] Meier states that a number of other criteria, e.g., the criterion of multiple attestation (i.e., confirmation by more than one source), the criterion of coherence (i.e., that it fits with other historical elements) and the criterion of rejection (i.e., that it is not disputed by ancient sources) help establish the crucifixion of Jesus as a historical event.[13]

Although almost all ancient sources relating to crucifixion are literary, the 1968 archeological discovery just northeast of Jerusalem of the body of a crucified man dated to the 1st century provided good confirmatory evidence that crucifixions occurred during the Roman period roughly according to the manner in which the crucifixion of Jesus is described in the gospels.[14] The crucified man was identified as Yohan Ben Ha’galgol and probably died about 70 AD, around the time of the Jewish revolt against Rome. The analyses at the Hadassah Medical School estimated that he died in his late 20s. Another relevant archaeological find, which also dates to the 1st century AD, is an unidentified heel bone with a spike discovered in a Jerusalem gravesite, now held by the Israel Antiquities Authority and displayed in the Israel Museum.[15][16]*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus

Fine, you want to continue this game: since Christians believe killing and stoning the following was acceptable according to the rule of God for hundreds of years, they are morally inferior to Muslims:

Yes. Christians that stoned people for things like adultery which Jesus condemned; and burned heretics, apostates, etc were morally worse than the Muslim doctor who prays 5 times a day. Now Christians can read the Bible easily and see that it’s not okay to do those things, although it’s very easy to interpret the Qur’an as an oppresive Religion. Especially the Hadiths.

“People Who Don’t Listen to Priests”(Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
“Witches”(Exodus 22:17 NAB)
“Homosexuals”(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Fortunetellers"(Leviticus 20:27 NAB)"
Hitting parents"(Exodus 21:15 NAB)"
Cursing Parents"(Proverbs 20:20 NAB)"(Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Sacrificing to other Gods (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Non-believers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
False Prophets(Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Entire Town and livestock if some of them Worships Another God(Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night(Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Apostates(Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)(Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Blasphemy(Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)(Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

This law wasn’t “harder” to follow; it was down right impossible. That’s the point.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Muslims and Christians agree God is good. Yet one book commands its followers to “chop off heads and finger tips and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding.” The other tells us to “love one another as I have loved you”.

Following this thread really sheds light on the minuscule differences between Catholics and Protestants….

Indeed.

 

[peace_at_last]

How much more clear could it be, my friend? He told us the holy Spirit would guide us. No one else. How else could our peaceful religion survive through heresy, persecution, and reformation. We are still here and will be until the end of time. Jesus also assured us that good will triumph over evil.

(formerly known as “lutheran farmer”)

So that was the Holy Spirit guiding you during the period you refer as the dark ages and the inquisitions. You know well that the popes and high priests were involved in those acts.

 

[Peebo]

youtube.com/watch?v=chnP_hHIE_M&list=PL0B89A05F9F6D3E47
So while Christians here might feel justified in themselves for pointing out their critique of Islam… in Iraq Christianity is being exterminated by ISIS terrorists…there are no more Christians in Mosul after 2000 of Christianity…no more mass celebrated…watch the above link with Mother Yaqob…founder of The Daughters of Mary of Nazareth who makes it quite clear that Iraqi Christians blame the US for causing the present genocide of their Christian community…if Christians here spent as much time helping fellow Christians who are suffering and dying for their faith maybe they might have a reason to criticize others…until then…‘judge not unless ye be judged’.

 

[Per_Crucem]

youtube.com/watch?v=chnP_hHIE_M&list=PL0B89A05F9F6D3E47
So while Christians here might feel justified in themselves for pointing out their critique of Islam… in Iraq Christianity is being exterminated by ISIS terrorists…there are no more Christians in Mosul after 2000 of Christianity…no more mass celebrated…watch the above link with Mother Yaqob…founder of The Daughters of Mary of Nazareth who makes it quite clear that Iraqi Christians blame the US for causing the present genocide of their Christian community…if Christians here spent as much time helping fellow Christians who are suffering and dying for their faith maybe they might have a reason to criticize others…until then…‘judge not unless ye be judged’.

I saw the interview with her. Very, very sad stuff. I have been to Iraq, and know full well how joyous the Christian community there was. All that we can say, outside of direct government intervention by destroying ISIS, and/or restoring the Christian community there, is that Christ exists and is present in and fills all things and He will watch His flock regardless of what country they are forced to go to.

 

[dronald]

So that was the Holy Spirit guiding you during the period you refer as the dark ages and the inquisitions. You know well that the popes and high priests were involved in those acts.

No. In fact the Church has apologized for every evil act it committed back in the day. While I believe in turning the other cheek even in the midst of oppression, the Christians of that time did defend themselves against attacking Muslims. However, I disagree with any war as I believe in praying for those who hate you, persecute you, etc.

I know this was directed at a Lutheran and I am an Evangelical, but I’m sure you really want to direct this at the Catholics. But I can speak on behalf of my position and what I presume is the Lutheran position regarding this, and how it can relate to Islam.

Evangelicals believe that some disagreements are incredibly important as it keeps other Church’s in line. When there is one authoritative Church it can be dangerous, because said Church can use that power for corruption. That’s why there was a reform, which the Lutheran poster here represents. Although, corruption and killing continued within many Church’s, and doctrinal disagreements persued causing many breaks.

However, this has brought us to a point where all Church’s can unanimously condemn another Church for it’s actions. Let’s say for example the CC wanted another inquisition; every other Church would stand up and say NO. This sort of thing does not happen in Islam as there are no authorities, and many of them are very corrupt; especially considering they use their texts to back it up.

Now I will say personally as an Evangelical I looked for quotes from Pope’s, Church Fathers, etc; trying to prove that they distorted the Bible in order to fit an agenda and it turns out there’s nothing. It was one of the reasons that I wanted to become Catholic is that even though they acted evil, it was despite their religious texts; not because of them. That’s why the crusades and inquisitions don’t have Pope’s quoting Jesus Christ.