Pay, convert or die. Muslims, do you believe this?

[SteveVH]

To add further. I’ve lived on both sides of the fence. We were raised in a Sunni family. My parents were not very religious but living in Saudi Arabia you are indoctronated to a great degree to accept everything and question nothing.

Any idea that would challenge the status quo is systematically censored and so most people who live there are ignorant about a lot of things. Not because they’re inherently bad but because they don’t know anything else.

That sort of environment creates opportunities for extreme elements to manipulate and influence the uninformed and so it creates a breeding ground for extremists.

Like I said before, there is no single standard. Everyone holds on to their idea of “the true islam” even though many of these standards conflict with one another.

It wasn’t until we moved to Canada and in High School that I started to look at all of this critically and after reading, researching and many discussions with Sunnis that I finally came to the conclusion that Sunni Islam is not true islam. long story short I converted to Shia Islam because I felt it represented the true spirit of Islam as closely as possible.

As someone here mentioned, Taqiyya is allowed in Islam if your life is in danger. If I or my family is threatened and the only way out is to hide my faith then It’s completely reasonable to do so. What’s important is that this is only allowed in extreme circumstances.

I hope this helped clarify things a bit.

Thanks for this, famdigy. One thing I find interesting is the fact that you are allowed to lie about your faith in order to save your life. As Christians, we can never deny our faith. We are to be ready to give our lives if necessary. This is true martyrdom; to give your life rather than deny Christ.

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

Steve

 

[SeekerOfIron]

Well, it doesn’t matter what I believe; I’m going to be accused of believing it, regardless. It doesn’t matter what I say.

I can totally understand your frustration. Reading through the first couple posts, I kept looking to see the religion of those answering: “Church of England,” “Catholic,” “Roman Catholic,” “Catholic.” etc. And then, to read “Wow, what an eye-opening thread.”… This forum sometimes makes me literally shout out in frustration.

I’d like to let you know that there are people like me though, who entered this thread not to tell people what Muslims believe, but to hear from Muslims what they believe. Even if you were bashed in the replies later, your voice would be heard and listened to (just not necessarily by those busy talking).

This isn’t a condemnation of your frustration, or saying that you shouldn’t have given up, but to hopefully give you encouragement and to let you know that there are readers on this forum that value your opinion. I don’t know any Muslims (at least, that talk about their faith) in real life, so I get most of my first-hand knowledge from brave internet adventurers like you.

Thanks also to famdigy for your response.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

I can totally understand your frustration. Reading through the first couple posts, I kept looking to see the religion of those answering: “Church of England,” “Catholic,” “Roman Catholic,” “Catholic.” etc. And then, to read “Wow, what an eye-opening thread.”… This forum sometimes makes me literally shout out in frustration.

I’d like to let you know that there are people like me though, who entered this thread not to tell people what Muslims believe, but to hear from Muslims what they believe. Even if you were** bashed **in the replies later, your voice would be heard and listened to (just not necessarily by those busy talking).

This isn’t a condemnation of your frustration, or saying that you shouldn’t have given up, but to hopefully give you encouragement and to let you know that there are readers on this forum that value your opinion. I don’t know any Muslims (at least, that talk about their faith) in real life, so I get most of my first-hand knowledge from brave internet adventurers like you.

Thanks also to famdigy for your response.

“Bashed” like how the churches in Syria are being bashed?

 

[famdigy]

Thanks for this, famdigy. One thing I find interesting is the fact that you are allowed to lie about your faith in order to save your life. As Christians, we can never deny our faith. We are to be ready to give our lives if necessary. This is true martyrdom; to give your life rather than deny Christ.

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

Steve

Steve, it’s a personal choice. The person who is martyred because of his faith will get a martyr’s reward in the next life. If that same person chooses to conceal his faith and preserve his life that’s also ok

 

[7_Sorrows]

I am still waiting for a response by a muslim also. I am sure during these times they feel tested in their faith.

 

[SteveVH]

“Bashed” like how the churches in Syria are being bashed?

I don’t think anyone is cutting any slack to the Muslims who are engaging in this abysmal behavior. The question, however, is whether or not this is mainstream belief.

One thing that I find very troubling is that we hear no Muslims publicly denouncing this behavior, at least I have not heard or seen any. If a “Christian” group was engaging in similar behavior it would be publicly denounced immediately by the Catholic Church and pretty much every denomination as well. This fact leaves me more than a little uneasy.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, it’s a personal choice. The person who is martyred because of his faith will get a martyr’s reward in the next life. If that same person chooses to conceal his faith and preserve his life that’s also ok

Are you saying that Allah cares not whether one denies Him in order to save his own skin? He just gets a different reward?

 

[peace_at_last]

Very recently it has come to light that ISIS is taking over Christian homes and Churches in Syria and Iraq. The message they have written on the walls is “Pay, convert (to Islam) or die”.

I do not know Islam well enough to know whether this is an extremist view or the standard Muslim position. Can a Muslim please help me here?

Thank you.

The answer is simple: both Iraq and Syria were Islamic states before ISIS started claiming territory. Under both of these Islamic states Christians were living their lives like normal people until ISIS came along and started making threats against them.

Furthermore, it is not only the Christians that are threatened. The ISIS shows the same attitude to anyone who opposes them irrespective of them Being Muslim or not. They have killed many many more Muslims that they have killed Christians.

Can a Muslim please interpret Surah 9:29 for me?

The verse says in simple terms fight with them until they pay jizya (tax). Thus these people are required to negotiate a contract with the Islamic government to be regarded as citizens.

Consider this example: if someone wants to become a citizen of a country they have to abide by its laws and they have to pay tax to the government or else they will be punished either by deportation or other means. It is the same reasoning here: If someone wants to become a citizen under the rule of Islam they have to abide by its laws and pay taxes, and in return they will be regarded as citizens and will benefit from the protection of the government like everybody else.

The rules for this law are many and there are some differences amongst Shia Muslim Scholars (and Sunni scholars too) about how these laws are implemented. The exact amount of tax and the conditions of the contract between the government and those who have to pay jizya (tax) are not fixed and are negotiable.

I am using this Shia source here: wikifeqh.ir/%D8%AC%D8%B2%DB%8C%D9%87 that is in Farsi to explain some of the laws. It is very long and refers to many sources and I will only translate the main points:

1-Jizya is a tax taken from the People of the Book (Christians, Jews, etc.) who want to reside under the rule of an Islamic government. By paying this tax they come under the protection of that government.

2-The following people are exempted from paying this tax: a-Women, b-Children, c-Elderly, d-the poor and needy (according to most scholars), e-Religious leaders (although some scholars differ on this) f-those who are not sane. Thus, only a minority of the population pays this tax.
According to the law, if for instance a woman that does not know she is exempted from paying this tax, pays it, she can make a claim later and get her money back.

3-According to some scholars if the government fails to take the tax when the time comes (once a year), the person is no longer required to pay it for that year. The tax can also be paid in installments.

4- The amount of tax that is payable is negotiable. Furthermore, as a rule of thumb, it depends on the wealth of the person paying it and the wealthier have to pay more than the less wealthy.

5-The jizya tax can be completely ignored and everyone become exempt from paying it based on a number of reasons that the government deems appropriate (this is probably why it is not practiced in Islamic countries today).

6-Those who pay jizya tax do not pay the two other taxes that Muslims have to pay that are Khums and Zakat.

7-The agent that collects the tax must show tolerance and must refrain from using physical force.

 

[peace_at_last]

Are you saying that Allah cares not whether one denies Him in order to save his own skin? He just gets a different reward?

Although you asked the question from someone else I am sure you wouldn’t mind if I gave an answer.

First I’ll use an example. Killing fellow humans for no reason at all is inappropriate and a grave sin. This grave sin turns into a justifiable act when performed in self-defense.

The same reasoning applies to lying. In normal conditions it is a grave sin to lie but when someone wants to unlawfully harm you because you have a religion that they do not believe in, then you are justified in hiding your real beliefs even if it means you have to utter a lie.

I think you have mixed up two concepts: 1-Denying our faith by our tongue and 2-denying our faith by our heart. When taqqiya is practiced we deny our faith only by your tongue, never by your heart. Thus, we never ever deny God.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Directing this question to peace at last - you don’t think ISIS was trying to collect the tax in mosul from christian woman and children, only men?

Thank you for joining in the discussion!

 

[peace_at_last]

Directing this question to peace at last - you don’t think ISIS was trying to collect the tax in mosul from christian woman and children, only men?

Thank you for joining in the discussion!

ISIS have no reason and no logic and they are the scum of this earth. These people blow themselves up amongst innocent women and children. I have no idea what they were trying to do with the Christians. I simply explained verse 9:29 as a member had requested.

 

[UnumCorpus]

I don’t think anyone is cutting any slack to the Muslims who are engaging in this abysmal behavior. The question, however, is whether or not this is mainstream belief.

One thing that I find very troubling is that we hear no Muslims publicly denouncing this behavior, at least I have not heard or seen any. If a “Christian” group was engaging in similar behavior it would be publicly denounced immediately by the Catholic Church and pretty much every denomination as well. This fact leaves me more than a little uneasy.

Muslims may not be publicly denouncing this behaviour but there are some Muslims who are standing alongside Christians.

I shared this news story in another thread but I’ll post it here again:

nytimes.com/2014/07/21/wo…t&emc=rss&_r=1

 

[UnumCorpus]

One thing that I find very troubling is that we hear no Muslims publicly denouncing this behavior, at least I have not heard or seen any. If a “Christian” group was engaging in similar behavior it would be publicly denounced immediately by the Catholic Church and pretty much every denomination as well. This fact leaves me more than a little uneasy.

Muslims may not be publicly denouncing this behaviour to the media but there are some who are standing alongside Christians.

I shared this news story in another thread but I’ll post it here again:

nytimes.com/2014/07/21/world/middleeast/concern-and-support-for-iraqi-christians-forced-by-isis-militants-to-flee-mosul.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=1

 

[josie_L]

I’ve known many Muslims, and I consider several to be good friends. None of them fit the descriptions above, and none of them would talk about anyone in those sorts of terms.

Speaking in those offensive and quite frankly, disgusting generalities (you can never believe anything a Muslim says/Muslims can only be good by virtue of their religion’s relationship to Christianity) says far more about the people making those statements than it does about the Muslims that are being disparaged.

One of my favorite social activists is a Muslim. She dedicates her life to trying to prevent people from killing each other. (Ameena Mathews) uic.edu/depts/ccsb/ameena-matthews.html

There are a lot of household names that are also Muslims: Shaquille O’Neal, Fareed Zakaria (doesn’t consider himself religious these days), Dave Chappelle, Lupe Fiasco (about as anti-violence as it gets!), Casey Kasem, Janet Jackson, Ellen Burstyn, and Cat Stevens, just to name a few. These are not strange, foreign, obscure, anti-American whackjobs. These are normal people, many of whom I’m sure some on this site have admired. And many have contributed to society in wonderful ways. Painting all of these people, as well as the rest of the 1.6 BILLION Muslims (23% of the world’s population) as bad people who are not to be trusted strikes me as ignorant and hateful.

As for being violent, below is a link where you can find tons of information on conferences, decrees, statements, etc by North American religious authorities denouncing violence and terrorism against anyone.
theamericanmuslim.org/

Just something to think about, but to a lot of outsiders, the Catholic faith is forever tarnished because of the acts of a few priests. Statistically, violence within Islam comes from a small minority of the faith-and this percentage is even smaller when we’re talking about western Muslims. (You’ll also note that rates of terrorism and violence in the name of religion from Jews and Christians drops when you limit it to the west as well). Perhaps approaching Islam with the same gentleness and understanding that you would want a Muslim to approach you with would go a long way in easing tensions on a small, and hopefully eventually, large scale.

It is believed that between 15 to 25% (as sourced by many government agencies throughout the world) of all Muslims are radicalized, that is not a minority when you consider the 1 600 000 000 Muslims that exist.

 

[josie_L]

Muslims may not be publicly denouncing this behaviour to the media but there are some who are standing alongside Christians.

I shared this news story in another thread but I’ll post it here again:

nytimes.com/2014/07/21/world/middleeast/concern-and-support-for-iraqi-christians-forced-by-isis-militants-to-flee-mosul.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=1

That is laudable but it is still not enough (considerably small numbers considering the number of Muslims throughout the world), i.e., there are no mass demonstrations/rallies (riots) that one can liken to the rallies against Israel and for Palestine/Hamas.

P.S. Can we hope that more will stand up against the horrors of ISIS, it doesn’t seem so?

 

[peace_at_last]

Muslims may not be publicly denouncing this behaviour to the media but there are some who are standing alongside Christians.

I shared this news story in another thread but I’ll post it here again:

nytimes.com/2014/07/21/world/middleeast/concern-and-support-for-iraqi-christians-forced-by-isis-militants-to-flee-mosul.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=1

Actually, the Shias have expressed outrage over the actions of ISIS since day 1 but the media in the western countries do not cover these stories.

The first group of people to offer help to the Christians of Mosul were the Shias of Karbala in Iraq. The only link in English I could find to this story is this:

india.shafaqna.com/content/iraq-hazrat-abbas-holy-shrine-expresses-readiness-host-christians-displaced-mosul

 

[7_Sorrows]

ISIS have no reason and no logic and they are the scum of this earth. These people blow themselves up amongst innocent women and children. I have no idea what they were trying to do with the Christians. I simply explained verse 9:29 as a member had requested.

Now ISIS is calling for female mutilation for all females between 11 and
46. I suppose that would be for females in iraq and syria where they are in control.

 

[UnumCorpus]

That is laudable but it is still not enough (considerably small numbers considering the number of Muslims throughout the world), i.e., there are no mass demonstrations/rallies (riots) that one can liken to the rallies against Israel and for Palestine/Hamas.

P.S. Can we hope that more will stand up against the horrors of ISIS, it doesn’t seem so?

I realize that it is not nearly enough. But I just wanted to show that there is at least some small support for Christians amongst Muslims in the area. Better than none.

 

[UnumCorpus]

Actually, the Shias have expressed outrage over the actions of ISIS since day 1 but the media in the western countries do not cover these stories.

The first group of people to offer help to the Christians of Mosul were the Shias of Karbala in Iraq. The only link in English I could find to this story is this:

india.shafaqna.com/content/iraq-hazrat-abbas-holy-shrine-expresses-readiness-host-christians-displaced-mosul

 

[dronald]

The verse says in simple terms fight with them until they pay jizya (tax). Thus these people are required to negotiate a contract with the Islamic government to be regarded as citizens.

Consider this example: if someone wants to become a citizen of a country they have to abide by its laws and they have to pay tax to the government or else they will be punished either by deportation or other means. It is the same reasoning here: If someone wants to become a citizen under the rule of Islam they have to abide by its laws and pay taxes, and in return they will be regarded as citizens and will benefit from the protection of the government like everybody else.

The rules for this law are many and there are some differences amongst Shia Muslim Scholars (and Sunni scholars too) about how these laws are implemented. The exact amount of tax and the conditions of the contract.

I am using this Shia source here: wikifeqh.ir/%D8%AC%D8%B2%DB%8C%D9%87 that is in Farsi to explain some of the laws. It is very long and refers to many sources and I will only translate the main points:

1-Jizya is a tax taken from the People of the Book (Christians, Jews, etc.) who want to reside under the rule of an Islamic government. By paying this tax they come under the protection of that government.

2-The following people are exempted from paying this tax: a-Women, b-Children, c-Elderly, d-the poor and needy (according to most scholars), e-Religious leaders (although some scholars differ on this) f-those who are not sane. Thus, only a minority of the population pays this tax.
According to the law, if for instance a woman that does not know she is exempted from paying this tax, pays it, she can make a claim later and get her money back.

3-According to some scholars if the government fails to take the tax when the time comes (once a year), the person is no longer required to pay it for that year. The tax can also be paid in installments.

4- The amount of tax that is payable is negotiable. Furthermore, as a rule of thumb, it depends on the wealth of the person paying it and the wealthier have to pay more than the less wealthy.

5-The jizya tax can be completely ignored and everyone become exempt from paying it based on a number of reasons that the government deems appropriate (this is probably why it is not practiced in Islamic countries today).

6-Those who pay jizya tax do not pay the two other taxes that Muslims have to pay that are Khums and Zakat.

7-The agent that collects the tax must show tolerance and must refrain from using physical force.

Thanks. This is why it’s so hard being unable to speak Arabic, because whenever I post the English translations I quickly realize that it must have been translated terribly.

Here’s the passage:Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Qur’an 9:30—The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

When it should look something like this: Surah 9:29 Negotiate with those who do not believe in Allah nor hold forbidden what Allah hath forbidden; assuming they want to live under Islamic law. If they do, they may have to pay the Jizya but maybe not.

30 Christians say that Jesus is the Son of God, but they are still equal and not cursed at all. Besides, Muslims pay a tax too, so it’s basically the same thing.

Oh please. Find me an early Islamic commentator that has the interpretation that you have.

Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4—Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.