Pay, convert or die. Muslims, do you believe this?

[peace_at_last]

The link I showed had a death sentence amended for adultery. For a death sentence to be amended there must be a law in the first place no?

The title of the topic is about death for failure to convert so I’ve brought up the issue of apostasy in the countries you seem to support. I do understand if you want to ignore and sugar coat rules for apostasy as it’s ridiculously hard to convert or live freely in Iran or Iraq without experiencing death threats from relatives, friends and then the government.

I’m just glad I’m not wanting to become a Christian in a Muslim country.

Also, when you as a Muslim post what Catholics did hundreds of years ago it makes me believe that Muslims are living in the dark ages.

You asked: “Don’t they often stone adulterers in those countries?” and I said “nope”. You posted the first link to show people are OFTEN stoned in Iran and Iraq for adultery, while the link shows the abolition of this law that has rarely (if ever) been implemented.

Just in case you don’t realize it “death for failure to convert” is radically different from “death for converting aka apostasy” so your questions are still unrelated to this topic.

I find it strange that you think Muslims live in the dark ages because they cite what Catholics did hundreds of years ago but at the same time you think there is no problem in adhering to a religion that came into existence about two thousand years ago.

 

[dronald]

You asked: “Don’t they often stone adulterers in those countries?” and I said “nope”. You posted the first link to show people are OFTEN stoned in Iran and Iraq for adultery, while the link shows the abolition of this law that has rarely (if ever) been implemented.

Just in case you don’t realize it “death for failure to convert” is radically different from “death for converting aka apostasy” so your questions are still unrelated to this topic.

I find it strange that you think Muslims live in the dark ages because they cite what Catholics did hundreds of years ago but at the same time you think there is no problem in adhering to a religion that came into existence about two thousand years ago.

That’s fine; your answer is a fair one. Adulterers are not often stoned but it could happen.

Death for failure to convert is a big deal and entirely on topic. You brought up Iran and Iraq to justify your belief on Surah 9:29. And although many Muslims have different interpretations on how non-Muslims should be treated, they seem consistent on Apostasy. No?

Besides, you want “rejection” so here’s the NYT:

“In 13 countries around the world, all of them Muslim, people who openly espouse atheism or reject the official state religion of Islam face execution under the law, according to a detailed study issued on Tuesday.”

mobile.nytimes.com/reuters/2013/12/09/world/09reuters-religion-atheists.html?_r=0

 

[Rence]

So our Muslim brother has seen fit to link us to a sordid aspect of the history of the Catholic Church, in which her enemies were tortured and put to death. I detect an incipient tu quoque fallacy here.

The subject of this thread is Islam and not Catholicism. Therefore we shall discount arguments pointing to the behavior, tenets and practices of Catholicism and its adherents and focus on Islam and Muslims. The central question appears to me as one of whether it is in the nature of Islam itself to be violent and radical. Are violent and radical acts the norm in the history of Islam, or are they an exception to the rule? Was Islam spread by exploration and trading or by conquest and oppression? Do the founders and leaders of Islam preach love and redemption or do they preach something else?

I do think our Muslim brother has brought up an important point: no matter what religion, tyranny brought about by thinking one religion’s laws and rules should be universally followed is dangerous no matter what religion it is. People who seek to convert others to their religion by force (any force) are no different from each other, they just follow a different religion than the next person. I don’t think we need to focus entirely on muslims here because history has shown that those with a dark nature follow all kinds of religions.

Violent and radical acts are common with most religions, because their followers can be violent and radical. In fact, even the spread of Catholicism wasn’t always that peaceful.

 

[QuestLove]

Very recently it has come to light that ISIS is taking over Christian homes and Churches in Syria and Iraq. The message they have written on the walls is “Pay, convert (to Islam) or die”.

I do not know Islam well enough to know whether this is an extremist view or the standard Muslim position. Can a Muslim please help me here?

Thank you.

I would not use ISIS as an example of Islamic teaching just as in the same way I wouldn’t use The Lord’s Resistance Army as an example of christian teaching. These extremist groups should be condemned. They twist and abuse scriptures for their benefit.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Yes Catholics admit to the dark part of our history which happened many centuries ago. It ended and was never used again. Torture snd horrible sentences of death such as being drawn and quartered were common up until the 16th and 17th centuries and committed in many kingdoms. We are now in the 21st century. Most countries since the 1700’s have become more civilized and what was normal 500 years ago fortunately is not seen in modern society. Some countries won’t even give death sentences as capital punishment.
People of the Book do not use punishments such as stoning and do not believe in an eye for an eye. We are civilized now. Islam seems uncivilized in so many aspects.

 

[dronald]

Yes Catholics admit to the dark part of our history which happened many centuries ago. It ended and was never used again. Torture snd horrible sentences of death such as being drawn and quartered were common up until the 16th and 17th centuries and committed in many kingdoms. We are now in the 21st century. Most countries since the 1700’s have become more civilized and what was normal 500 years ago fortunately is not seen in modern society. Some countries won’t even give death sentences as capital punishment.
People of the Book do not use punishments such as stoning and do not believe in an eye for an eye. We are civilized now. Islam seems uncivilized in so many aspects.

And I’ll be honest; as an Evangelical when I heard how bad the CC was I then looked to see what Scripture they used to justify their actions. I quickly learned that Scripture was rarely ever quoted to give justification because there’s nothing found in the NT that can be interpreted in such a way.

Therefore, the laws of Islam rely on an interpretation of some very mean texts, while in order to come up with harsh laws as Christians we must ignore the Bible.

 

[QuestLove]

We also need to remember too that a large number of the victims of ISIS and other Muslim extremist groups are other Muslims too.
I saw a post of someone saying that Muslims do not speak out against the violence. That simply is not true. There are many Muslims who have lost entire families to this group and they are very scared for the rest of their families.
When we look at groups like Boko Haram, they are kidnapping Muslim girls as well.
The heart of man can be very evil, regardless of what religious groupmyou belong too.

 

[dronald]

We also need to remember too that a large number of the victims of ISIS and other Muslim extremist groups are other Muslims too.
I saw a post of someone saying that Muslims do not speak out against the violence. That simply is not true. There are many Muslims who have lost entire families to this group and they are very scared for the rest of their families.
When we look at groups like Boko Haram, they are kidnapping Muslim girls as well.
The heart of man can be very evil, regardless of what religious groupmyou belong too.

I agree that Muslims will disagree with these groups; but they’re not vocal at all. Christianity is now dead in Mosul and nobody seems to care, but when Israel fights Hamas this happens:

Protest in Germany yesterday

euractiv.com/sections/justice-home-affairs/german-gaza-protests-turn-violent-raising-anti-semitism-fears-303673

Protest in France 4 days ago

ctvnews.ca/world/french-rioters-set-fire-to-cars-during-gaza-protest-in-paris-1.1922772

 

[Elizium23]

I do think our Muslim brother has brought up an important point: no matter what religion, tyranny brought about by thinking one religion’s laws and rules should be universally followed is dangerous no matter what religion it is. People who seek to convert others to their religion by force (any force) are no different from each other, they just follow a different religion than the next person. I don’t think we need to focus entirely on muslims here because history has shown that those with a dark nature follow all kinds of religions.

Violent and radical acts are common with most religions, because their followers can be violent and radical. In fact, even the spread of Catholicism wasn’t always that peaceful.

That is indifferentism at its finest. And a fundamentally flawed argument. Some religions are based on truth, love and peace, and others are based in tyrrany and violence and oppression. One must examine the behavior and beliefs of the founders as well as those contained in the scriptures of each religion. Does a history of violence reflect the fundamental teachings and underpinnings of the faith or does it contradict them? When adherents wage a war, is it a just war to fight off aggressors or survive, or is it a belligerence bent on occupation and oppression? And of course, we cannot paint an adequate picture of a faith by what its adherents in particular countries do. Christians have waged unjust wars, but did they do it at the behest of Church leaders and based on the teachings of Jesus, or in spite of them? What about Muslims?

 

[peace_at_last]

Yes Catholics admit to the dark part of our history which happened many centuries ago. It ended and was never used again. Torture snd horrible sentences of death such as being drawn and quartered were common up until the 16th and 17th centuries and committed in many kingdoms. We are now in the 21st century. Most countries since the 1700’s have become more civilized and what was normal 500 years ago fortunately is not seen in modern society. Some countries won’t even give death sentences as capital punishment.
People of the Book do not use punishments such as stoning and do not believe in an eye for an eye. We are civilized now. Islam seems uncivilized in so many aspects.

Do you think the laws of God are for civilized people or for uncivilized people? Do you think that Moses and the Jews he was preaching to were civilized or uncivilized?

 

[7_Sorrows]

I think the laws against converting from islam or apostasy are made out fear of people converting to christianity or other religions. It is their way of assuring Islam survives.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Do you think the laws of God are for civilized people or for uncivilized people? Do you think that Moses and the Jews he was preaching to were civilized or uncivilized?

I believe the 10 commandments were given to the Jewish people as a way to have laws for people to abide by to know there is one God who wants us to love and honor our neighbor. We are accountable. I think Moses and his fellow Jews were people of their times.
There were probably customs that might have existed back then that seem uncivilized to our eyes but were normal to them.

 

[peace_at_last]

I think the laws against converting from islam or apostasy are made out fear of people converting to christianity or other religions. It is their way of assuring Islam survives.

If that was a response to my question, I didn’t ask that. I asked this: Do you think the laws of God are for civilized people or for uncivilized people? Do you think that Moses and the Jews he was preaching to were civilized or uncivilized?

 

[peace_at_last]

I believe the 10 commandments were given to the Jewish people as a way to have laws for people to abide by to know there is one God who wants us to love and honor our neighbor. We are accountable. I think Moses and his fellow Jews were people of their times.
There were probably customs that might have existed back then that seem uncivilized to our eyes but were normal to them.

So, you believe it is all right for laws to exist in the corpus of a religion that might have been regarded as civilized when that religion was revealed, but if the same (or similar) laws exist in Islam, you believe it is fair to label Islam as being uncivilized?!

 

[dronald]

So, you believe it is all right for laws to exist in the corpus of a religion that might have been regarded as civilized when that religion was revealed, but if the same (or similar) laws exist in Islam, you believe it is fair to label Islam as being uncivilized?!

It’s never been civilized to murder someone for wanting to become a Christian, and it still isn’t. Jesus never taught such things but Muhammad did.

 

[peace_at_last]

That’s fine; your answer is a fair one. Adulterers are not often stoned but it could happen.

Death for failure to convert is a big deal and entirely on topic. You brought up Iran and Iraq to justify your belief on Surah 9:29. And although many Muslims have different interpretations on how non-Muslims should be treated, they seem consistent on Apostasy. No?

Besides, you want “rejection” so here’s the NYT:

“In 13 countries around the world, all of them Muslim, people who openly espouse atheism or reject the official state religion of Islam face execution under the law, according to a detailed study issued on Tuesday.”

mobile.nytimes.com/reuters/2013/12/09/world/09reuters-religion-atheists.html?_r=0

1-The law for stoning adulterers has been completely abolished in Iran.

2-The subject of apostasy has no place in this thread. The subject that was relevant was verse 9:29, which I explained to a fair extent.

3-The link you posted was fairly interesting. I didn’t know these about the European countries:

The IHEU, which has member bodies in some 50 countries and supporters in many more where such organizations are banned, said there was systematic or severe discrimination against atheists across the 27-nation European Union.

The situation was severe in Austria, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Malta and Poland where blasphemy laws allow for jail sentences up to three years on charges of offending a religion or believers.

In these and all other EU countries, with the exception of the Netherlands and Belgium which the report classed as “free and equal,” there was systemic discrimination across society favoring religions and religious believers.

 

[dronald]

1-The law for stoning adulterers has been completely abolished in Iran.

2-The subject of apostasy has no place in this thread. The subject that was relevant was verse 9:29, which I explained to a fair extent.

3-The link you posted was fairly interesting. I didn’t know these about the European countries:

Do you support or are you against killing apostates?

 

[7_Sorrows]

So, you believe it is all right for laws to exist in the corpus of a religion that might have been regarded as civilized when that religion was revealed, but if the same (or similar) laws exist in Islam, you believe is fair to label Islam as being uncivilized?!

Animals are not sacrificed anymore and I believe in Islam before one of the major holidays they sacrifice an animal for each family probably not giving much care to how the animal might suffer.
Although I do hear when the next Jewish temple is rebuilt animal sacrifice might resume-I hope not. Punishment for theft and adultery also seem extreme.

When I lived in Spain I became interested in islam because of the islamic influence on southern spain. The architecture, gardens and the music. I romanticized it. I was young and naive and could have been taken in by it all and pursued it further. I did not know Islam or anything about the Quran. I was so liberal back then.

 

[Elizium23]

Hmm, I thought that kashrut and halal laws required a very humane form of slaughter but apparently this is not the case. This article says many organizations contend that dhabihah slaughter is inhumane and causes great suffering to the animal.

 

[peace_at_last]

It’s never been civilized to murder someone for wanting to become a Christian, and it still isn’t. Jesus never taught such things but Muhammad did.

Do you support or are you against killing apostates?

God clearly advocates the punishment of death for apostasy in the Bible, yet you claim it is not civilized to kill someone for wanting to change their religion (becoming a Christian as you put it). So you believe God was not civilized? Or do you have a problem with the law of God that has been stated in both the Bible and in Islam?