Pay, convert or die. Muslims, do you believe this?

[peace_at_last]

peace_at_last;12202314:

So, you believe it is all right for laws to exist in the corpus of a religion that might have been regarded as civilized when that religion was revealed, but if the same (or similar) laws exist in Islam, you believe it is fair to label Islam as being uncivilized?!

Animals are not sacrificed anymore and I believe in Islam before one of the major holidays they sacrifice an animal for each family probably not giving much care to how the animal might suffer.
Although I do hear when the next Jewish temple is rebuilt animal sacrifice might resume-I hope not. Punishment for theft and adultery also seem extreme.

When I lived in Spain I became interested in islam because of the islamic influence on southern spain. The architecture, gardens and the music. I romanticized it. I was young and naive and could have been taken in by it all and pursued it further. I did not know Islam or anything about the Quran. I was so liberal back then.

That is not an answer to my question.

 

[peace_at_last]

Hmm, I thought that kashrut and halal laws required a very humane form of slaughter but apparently this is not the case. This article says many organizations contend that dhabihah slaughter is inhumane and causes great suffering to the animal.

According to that article itself, nearly everything in that article is disputed. Go back hundreds of years to the time that these laws were revealed: Can you tell me of a more humane method for slaughtering animals that could have been used in those times?

 

[peace_at_last]

Hmm, I thought that kashrut and halal laws required a very humane form of slaughter but apparently this is not the case. This article says many organizations contend that dhabihah slaughter is inhumane and causes great suffering to the animal.

According to that article itself, nearly everything in that article is disputed (even the claimed more humane methods of nowadays).

Go back hundreds of years to the time that these laws were revealed: Can you tell me of a more humane method for slaughtering animals that could have been used in those times?

 

[manualman]

The answer is simple: both Iraq and Syria were Islamic states before ISIS started claiming territory. Under both of these Islamic states Christians were living their lives like normal people until ISIS came along and started making threats against them.

Oh really? So had I lived in Iraq prior to ISIS coming along, I could share my faith in Jesus with regular muslims on the street and not suffer violence for it? I could operate a vineyard? Could I publish a book in which I criticized Muhammed’s decision to practice polygamy? Could I operate a school for girls? If my 9 year old child said the words “There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet” would I be forever barred from instructing him in the Christian faith on pain of death? Could I build a new catholic church and invite people to join it? If my wife were raped by muslims would a judge prosecute it or would he instead require an insulting and absurd standard of proof first (or perhaps even prosecute HER for adultery)?

THESE are ways of living like normal people. They aren’t possible in most Islamic majority nations because of the oppressive nature of the teachings of Muhammed, commonly called Islam. Unless I’m wrong and you tell me all those things would have been just fine before ISIS came along. But every Christian I’ve ever known that came to this country from a muslim majority country tells me it is as I said.

 

[dronald]

God clearly advocates the punishment of death for apostasy in the Bible, yet you claim it is not civilized to kill someone for wanting to change their religion (becoming a Christian as you put it). So you believe God was not civilized? Or do you have a problem with the law of God that has been stated in both the Bible and in Islam?

Question dodge.

Do YOU support the death penalty for apostasy?

 

[SteveVH]

Oh really? So had I lived in Iraq prior to ISIS coming along, I could share my faith in Jesus with regular muslims on the street and not suffer violence for it? I could operate a vineyard? Could I publish a book in which I criticized Muhammed’s decision to practice polygamy? Could I operate a school for girls? If my 9 year old child said the words “There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet” would I be forever barred from instructing him in the Christian faith on pain of death? Could I build a new catholic church and invite people to join it? If my wife were raped by muslims would a judge prosecute it or would he instead require an insulting and absurd standard of proof first (or perhaps even prosecute HER for adultery)?

THESE are ways of living like normal people. They aren’t possible in most Islamic majority nations because of the oppressive nature of the teachings of Muhammed, commonly called Islam. Unless I’m wrong and you tell me all those things would have been just fine before ISIS came along. But every Christian I’ve ever known that came to this country from a muslim majority country tells me it is as I said.

Bingo!

 

[manualman]

So, you believe it is all right for laws to exist in the corpus of a religion that might have been regarded as civilized when that religion was revealed, but if the same (or similar) laws exist in Islam, you believe it is fair to label Islam as being uncivilized?!

This is an excellent question! Made me think some.

Not sure if it’s true, but I’ve been told that Islam understands Allah to be inscrutable and His will not to be examined critically. Fair statement? Christianity has a slightly different take. We also believe God to be so far above human comprehension that we often don’t even understand what we don’t understand. Nevertheless, we’ve been told that we’re created in His image and likeness and share in a limited capacity the ability to reason and comprehend good and evil as principles, not just commands.

This makes for a crucial difference between Islam and Christianity. While there are plentiful problems in the behavior and leadership of Christianity over the centuries, there has never been any REVELATION from God that later examination found to be morally repugnant. Contrast that with Muhammed’s insistence that the Koran and Hadith directly communicate the will of Allah and it becomes hard to understand the general instructions to kill given by Allah for things that offend even our poor and limited human consciences. The OT Scriptures certainly also have instances that commanded killing, but there are profound differences. The command to wipe out whole city populations was always highly specific in time and place, never a generalized command. If God commanded it, the Christian can trust that there truly was not one soul there that had any potential left for redemption (and only God can judge that). In cases where general commands to kill were given (adultery, for example) it appears to be a case of gradual revelation unlike the fixed, once for always revelations claimed by Muhammed. I’ve been told for example that in pre-Abrahamic societies when a wife committed adultery both she and her children were stoned to death. Early revelation removed the blatant injustice of the death of the children, but the people of the time weren’t ready to hear that adultery did not warrant killing. God revealed himself gradually, culiminating in the message of mercy and forgiveness that is Christ. Muhammed never gets that far. Worse, he fixed forever the standard by which Allah is demonstrably less moral than many mere humans alive today. Unimpressive, to say the least.

I do think it’s a fair statement to say that Muhammed was a significant moral advance compared to the wider 7th century culture in which he lived and that in HIS day, his ideas were a civilizational step forward towards conformance with the will and character of God. But the fatal flaw was that the way he established Islam as a religious system forever fixed the civilizational standard of human decency in the 7th century. Yikes. Jesus, by contrast, wasn’t just a good guy by 1st century or even 7th century standards. He really is the perfect example of man conformed to the will and character of God - because He IS God. Have I heard correctly that Islam considers Muhammed to have been morally impeccable and his teachings absolutely reliable as revelation (thus impervious to reforms)?

 

[dronald]

This is an excellent question! Made me think some.

Not sure if it’s true, but I’ve been told that Islam understands Allah to be inscrutable and His will not to be examined critically. Fair statement? Christianity has a slightly different take. We also believe God to be so far above human comprehension that we often don’t even understand what we don’t understand. Nevertheless, we’ve been told that we’re created in His image and likeness and share in a limited capacity the ability to reason and comprehend good and evil as principles, not just commands.

This makes for a crucial difference between Islam and Christianity. While there are plentiful problems in the behavior and leadership of Christianity over the centuries, there has never been any REVELATION from God that later examination found to be morally repugnant. Contrast that with Muhammed’s insistence that the Koran and Hadith directly communicate the will of Allah and it becomes hard to understand the general instructions to kill given by Allah for things that offend even our poor and limited human consciences. The OT Scriptures certainly also have instances that commanded killing, but there are profound differences. The command to wipe out whole city populations was always highly specific in time and place, never a generalized command. If God commanded it, the Christian can trust that there truly was not one soul there that had any potential left for redemption (and only God can judge that). In cases where general commands to kill were given (adultery, for example) it appears to be a case of gradual revelation unlike the fixed, once for always revelations claimed by Muhammed. I’ve been told for example that in pre-Abrahamic societies when a wife committed adultery both she and her children were stoned to death. Early revelation removed the blatant injustice of the death of the children, but the people of the time weren’t ready to hear that adultery did not warrant killing. God revealed himself gradually, culiminating in the message of mercy and forgiveness that is Christ. Muhammed never gets that far. Worse, he fixed forever the standard by which Allah is demonstrably less moral than many mere humans alive today. Unimpressive, to say the least.

I do think it’s a fair statement to say that Muhammed was a significant moral advance compared to the wider 7th century culture in which he lived and that in HIS day, his ideas were a civilizational step forward towards conformance with the will and character of God. But the fatal flaw was that the way he established Islam as a religious system forever fixed the civilizational standard of human decency in the 7th century. Yikes. Jesus, by contrast, wasn’t just a good guy by 1st century or even 7th century standards. He really is the perfect example of man conformed to the will and character of God - because He IS God. Have I heard correctly that Islam considers Muhammed to have been morally impeccable and his teachings absolutely reliable as revelation (thus impervious to reforms)?

I agree and disagree in part. I don’t believe in some type of abrogation in Christianity as Muslims do in Islam. For example, Muslims believe that Muhammad told people to drink less, then not drink at all.

I believe that all sin is deserving of death, and even at that time disobeying the Sabbath. God takes sin so seriously that each and every sin demands our death, including bearing false witness and being rude to our parents! God proved that being perfect is impossible and trying on our own will only lead to what we deserve.

Because God is perfect and Holy and His law is so strict He sent His Son, not only so that we no longer deserve such death when we have Him, but also to prove His love. Before animals would be sacrificed, but as we read by Isaiah and David, sacrifices mean nothing to God; except the one true sacrifice.

 

[dolphinlove]

God clearly advocates the punishment of death for apostasy in the Bible, yet you claim it is not civilized to kill someone for wanting to change their religion (becoming a Christian as you put it). So you believe God was not civilized? Or do you have a problem with the law of God that has been stated in both the Bible and in Islam?

One of the 10 commandments is thou shalt not kill, which means we cannot kill fellow human beings.

 

[peace_at_last]

Oh really? So had I lived in Iraq prior to ISIS coming along, I could share my faith in Jesus with regular muslims on the street and not suffer violence for it? I could operate a vineyard? Could I publish a book in which I criticized Muhammed’s decision to practice polygamy? Could I operate a school for girls? If my 9 year old child said the words “There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet” would I be forever barred from instructing him in the Christian faith on pain of death? Could I build a new catholic church and invite people to join it? If my wife were raped by muslims would a judge prosecute it or would he instead require an insulting and absurd standard of proof first (or perhaps even prosecute HER for adultery)?

THESE are ways of living like normal people. They aren’t possible in most Islamic majority nations because of the oppressive nature of the teachings of Muhammed, commonly called Islam. Unless I’m wrong and you tell me all those things would have been just fine before ISIS came along. But every Christian I’ve ever known that came to this country from a muslim majority country tells me it is as I said.

So you believe pre-ISIS Mosul was a hell-hole for Christians. Why all the outrage now that ISIS has taken over.

You throw a bunch of questions at me that are related to Isolated incidents committed by individuals towards Christians that I can find parallels for most cases in western countries against Muslims too. I’ve lost count of the number of hate-crimes and abuse of Muslims in western countries just because they were Muslims (Look at all the negative responses I’m getting here just because I’m a Muslim). Could I publish publish a book in Vatican city that criticizes Jesus and the Pope? Could I entrust my children to a priest without having the fear that they might, just might, be raped or sodomized by him? Can a Muslim send his daughter to a public school in France without being forced to take off her headscarve? Why is it that most Christians who convert to Islam face harsh reactions from fellow Christians, family and friends? Could I build a minaret for a mosque in Switzerland or a church in Moscow ( shoebat.com/2013/12/03/russia-outlaws-building-mosques-will-get-tougher-islam/ )? Can a Muslim slaughter animals using the Halal method in Denmark? etc. etc. etc.

 

[peace_at_last]

Question dodge.

Do YOU support the death penalty for apostasy?

I support what God advocates. Now it’s your turn to answer my questions:

God clearly advocates the punishment of death for apostasy in the Bible, yet you claim it is not civilized to kill someone for wanting to change their religion (becoming a Christian as you put it). So you believe God was not civilized? Or do you have a problem with the law of God that has been stated in both the Bible and in Islam?

 

[peace_at_last]

One of the 10 commandments is thou shalt not kill, which means we cannot kill fellow human beings.

For example:

Deuteronomy 13:

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

 

[dronald]

So you believe pre-ISIS Mosul was a hell-hole for Christians. Why all the outrage now that ISIS has taken over.

It was bad; not as bad.

You throw a bunch of questions at me that are related to Isolated incidents committed by individuals towards Christians that I can find parallels for most cases in western countries against Muslims too.

Ours aren’t incited by our religious text.

I’ve lost count of the number of hate-crimes and abuse of Muslims in western countries just because they were Muslims (Look at all the negative responses I’m getting here just because I’m a Muslim).

This is a common response from objections thrown at muslims; that somehow they are victims because they are criticized. To be honest the West is way too afraid of offending Muslims these days for fears of being labeled “Islamophobes”. It’s a joke, as no Religion is above criticism. There’s nothing wrong with being a Muslim but there’s a whole lot wrong with Islam.

Could I publish publish a book in Vatican city that criticizes Jesus and the Pope?

If you went to Vatican City and tried to proselytize, criticize Jesus and call the Pope and Anti-Christ, you’d likely be asked kindly to leave. It’s the smallest country in the world. For a quick video on Vatican City (and why your comparison is ridiculous) click here.

Could I entrust my children to a priest without having the fear that they might, just might, be raped or sodomized by him?

Yes, it’s likely. Although I wouldn’t blame his Catholicness, lol.

Can a Muslim send his daughter to a public school in France without being forced to take off her headscarve?

France has issues with all Religions because it’s trying to remain secular. Only Muslims are causing consistent extremism however. They even had to ban some protests because things got violent just recently. presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/25/372736/france-bans-propalestine-protest/

Why is it that most Christians who convert to Islam face harsh reactions from fellow Christians, family and friends?

Honour killings are far more common amongst Muslims and pretty much non existent among Christian converts so this is a poor argument.

Could I build a minaret for a mosque in Switzerland or a church in Moscow ( shoebat.com/2013/12/03/russia-outlaws-building-mosques-will-get-tougher-islam/ )?

I’m not sure? Can I have some better sources please?

Can a Muslim slaughter animals using the Halal method in Denmark? etc. etc. etc.

Please quote the reason given that the process of Halal slaughtering is forbidden.

 

[dronald]

I support what God advocates. Now it’s your turn to answer my questions:

God clearly advocates the punishment of death for apostasy in the Bible, yet you claim it is not civilized to kill someone for wanting to change their religion (becoming a Christian as you put it). So you believe God was not civilized? Or do you have a problem with the law of God that has been stated in both the Bible and in Islam?

So your answer is, “Yes I support killing another for apostasy.”

Is that correct? I will immediately get to your question as soon as I know that we’re certain on this point.

 

[peace_at_last]

This is an excellent question! Made me think some.

Not sure if it’s true, but I’ve been told that Islam understands Allah to be inscrutable and His will not to be examined critically. Fair statement? Christianity has a slightly different take. We also believe God to be so far above human comprehension that we often don’t even understand what we don’t understand. Nevertheless, we’ve been told that we’re created in His image and likeness and share in a limited capacity the ability to reason and comprehend good and evil as principles, not just commands.

This makes for a crucial difference between Islam and Christianity. While there are plentiful problems in the behavior and leadership of Christianity over the centuries, there has never been any REVELATION from God that later examination found to be morally repugnant. Contrast that with Muhammed’s insistence that the Koran and Hadith directly communicate the will of Allah and it becomes hard to understand the general instructions to kill given by Allah for things that offend even our poor and limited human consciences. The OT Scriptures certainly also have instances that commanded killing, but there are profound differences. The command to wipe out whole city populations was always highly specific in time and place, never a generalized command. If God commanded it, the Christian can trust that there truly was not one soul there that had any potential left for redemption (and only God can judge that). In cases where general commands to kill were given (adultery, for example) it appears to be a case of gradual revelation unlike the fixed, once for always revelations claimed by Muhammed. I’ve been told for example that in pre-Abrahamic societies when a wife committed adultery both she and her children were stoned to death. Early revelation removed the blatant injustice of the death of the children, but the people of the time weren’t ready to hear that adultery did not warrant killing. God revealed himself gradually, culiminating in the message of mercy and forgiveness that is Christ. Muhammed never gets that far. Worse, he fixed forever the standard by which Allah is demonstrably less moral than many mere humans alive today. Unimpressive, to say the least.

I do think it’s a fair statement to say that Muhammed was a significant moral advance compared to the wider 7th century culture in which he lived and that in HIS day, his ideas were a civilizational step forward towards conformance with the will and character of God. But the fatal flaw was that the way he established Islam as a religious system forever fixed the civilizational standard of human decency in the 7th century. Yikes. Jesus, by contrast, wasn’t just a good guy by 1st century or even 7th century standards. He really is the perfect example of man conformed to the will and character of God - because He IS God. Have I heard correctly that Islam considers Muhammed to have been morally impeccable and his teachings absolutely reliable as revelation (thus impervious to reforms)?

Why is it that you can easily worship a God that condemns his enemies to eternal hellfire but if He issues harsh punishments (that are in no way as harsh as eternal hellfire) in this world for sins He deems grave, those laws suddenly become outrageous?

 

[peace_at_last]

It was bad; not as bad.

Ours aren’t incited by our religious text.

This is a common response from objections thrown at muslims; that somehow they are victims because they are criticized. To be honest the West is way too afraid of offending Muslims these days for fears of being labeled “Islamophobes”. It’s a joke, as no Religion is above criticism. There’s nothing wrong with being a Muslim but there’s a whole lot wrong with Islam.

If you went to Vatican City and tried to proselytize, criticize Jesus and call the Pope and Anti-Christ, you’d likely be asked kindly to leave. It’s the smallest country in the world. For a quick video on Vatican City (and why your comparison is ridiculous) click here.

Yes, it’s likely. Although I wouldn’t blame his Catholicness, lol.

France has issues with all Religions because it’s trying to remain secular. Only Muslims are causing consistent extremism however. They even had to ban some protests because things got violent just recently. presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/25/372736/france-bans-propalestine-protest/

Honour killings are far more common amongst Muslims and pretty much non existent among Christian converts so this is a poor argument.

I’m not sure? Can I have some better sources please?

Please quote the reason given that the process of Halal slaughtering is forbidden.

I’ll just ignore everything else you said for now except for this: Why the hell must I be kicked out of Vatican if I tried to proselytize, criticize Jesus or the Pope?

 

[peace_at_last]

So your answer is, “Yes I support killing another for apostasy.”

Is that correct? I will immediately get to your question as soon as I know that we’re certain on this point.

My answer was very simple and obvious. I repeat: I support what God advocates.

Now instead of dodging my questions answer them:
God clearly advocates the punishment of death for apostasy in the Bible, yet you claim it is not civilized to kill someone for wanting to change their religion (becoming a Christian as you put it). So you believe God was not civilized? Or do you have a problem with the law of God that has been stated in both the Bible and in Islam?

 

[dronald]

My answer was very simple and obvious. I repeat: I support what God advocates.

Now instead of dodging my questions answer them:
God clearly advocates the punishment of death for apostasy in the Bible, yet you claim it is not civilized to kill someone for wanting to change their religion (becoming a Christian as you put it). So you believe God was not civilized? Or do you have a problem with the law of God that has been stated in both the Bible and in Islam?

I assure you that I will not dodge any of your questions, in fact I take much pride in doing things the ol’ Evangelical way and bluntly explaining what the Bible says without apology or sugar coat.

However, the only reason I have not responded is that I’m not sure what your answer is, as you have neither given an affirmation or a negative response to my question; rather a neutral one.

I’ll give you an example: Imagine you approached a Jehovah’s witness and asked, “Do you believe Jesus is God?” and he says, “I support what God advocates.” Said person then approaches a Catholic and asks, “Do you believe Jesus is God?” To which the Catholic responds, “I support what God advocates.” Either way said inquisitor cannot be certain.

I enjoy discussing apologetics with others so I promise a detailed answer as soon as I know your position as they often differ among Muslims; and the question is as follows:

Do you support the death penalty for apostasy?

 

[dronald]

I’ll just ignore everything else you said for now except for this: Why the hell must I be kicked out of Vatican if I tried to proselytize, criticize Jesus or the Pope?

I don’t know the official VC protocol for such activities. I know that in order to have a passport one must work there or be part of their high holy order (ie; Pope, Cardinal, etc.)

I only assume you would be asked nicely to leave as you would be a guest in what’s basically a giant Catholic museum of sorts. (sorry for the generalization Catholics but tourism is big for the pretty Church and paintings)

I will let a Catholic with better knowledge of VC answer based on the policies therein as I don’t have knowledge of their laws regarding trying to convert others. I can imagine it would be quite awkward considering what VC is like.

 

[MindlightRC]

Actually, the Shias have expressed outrage over the actions of ISIS since day 1 but the media in the western countries do not cover these stories.

The first group of people to offer help to the Christians of Mosul were the Shias of Karbala in Iraq. The only link in English I could find to this story is this:

india.shafaqna.com/content/iraq-hazrat-abbas-holy-shrine-expresses-readiness-host-christians-displaced-mosul

Cool link thanks for sharing that