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peace_at_last
Guest
That is what I have been trying to say all along: only God can make the judgment about which sin warrants spiritual and/or physical death.
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Elizium23
Guest
Nothing of the sort. I am not talking about murder or death penalties, I am talking about the mortality of man. Adam and Eve enjoyed physical immortality until the Fall. Part of their curse for committing the First Sin was that they and their descendants would suffer death, eventually.
Since Christ sacrificed himself He opened the gates of Heaven and revealed the Resurrection. He is the firstborn of the dead. He showed us the future promise of the Resurrection of the Dead. We will all be reborn in Christ on the Last Day, except for those unfortunate few who have elected to suffer the fires of Hell.
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dronald
Guest
Yup. Essentially we don’t deserve to breathe another breath when we sin. Nothing unclean can enter the presense of God and every time we sin we separate from God. There is no Sin-O-Meter where a certain amount of sins send you to Hell and doing less sins will allow one to Heaven. All sin is sin, although some worse than others they all lead to death and deserve death.
God implemented a law to be followed that was impossible to follow because it required perfection and proved this through His Holy Scriptures. For example:
Lev 20:9"'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.
Or
Numbers 15:32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses.
This is how God punishes sin; with death. Now, animals were often sacrificed for sins but as the Old Testament says:
Psalm 51:16 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened – burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
The entire point of the Sacrificial system was to point to a much greater Sacrifice that would soon come. Someone to bare our sin and shame and take it to Hell, leaving it there for us to be without blemish.
Check out Jeremiah 31:31 (OT way before Jesus) 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
Or Isaiah 53 (750 years before Christ)
53 Who has believed what he has heard from us?[a]
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected** by men;
a man of sorrows,[c] and acquainted with[d] grief;[e]
and as one from whom men hide their faces[f]
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;[g]
when his soul makes[h] an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see* and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.*
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,[j]
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,[k]
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.**
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dronald
Guest
I agree my friend, that’s why we are not to carry out such acts. Of course the government may have the death penalty based on their laws, but this should be separate from the Christian Religion. If one is motivated that another should be killed for killing then it should never be “because the Bible says so” in fact, the New Testament says nothing of the sort, and Jesus fulfilled the NT.
So is it your stance that Allah has made the judgement that one ought to be killed for apostasy and therefore governments are carrying out the process legitimately in Allah’s eyes? Because Christians take no stance on killing for apostasy based on what the Bible says.
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SteveVH
Guest
Yes, absolutely.
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SteveVH
Guest
Yes, we would agree. That is the problem we have with some Muslim laws. Men are acting as God, deciding who lives and who dies.
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Martin_Pastore
Guest
7 sorrows, I appreciate your post.
The only problem I find with it, I’m sorry to say, is you are addressing it to a commenter who
identifies themselves as --East Coast, Atheist. (I know the type all too well.)
I’m originally from NYC,… IF, the person takes the time to read your post, in their head it will sound something akin to “Charlie Brown’s Teacher” ==>wok,wa,wok,wok,wa,wok blap bla.
I’m sorry 7sorrows…I hope I’m wrong, but.
God Bless
Peace. Martin.
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peace_at_last
Guest
Will you let go of the apostasy stuff for a second. It seems the differences we have are fundamental.
What I understand from your words is that you deem it appropriate to punish someone based on secular laws but God does not have the right to dictate any punishment for any sin (in this world)?
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Contarini
Guest
Which crimes are punished with death under shari’a law which would not be punished with death under OT law?
Edwin
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
If we were judged by God’s law we would all be dead.
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dronald
Guest
Sure, but it is something of a concern for me so if you do clear up your official belief on killing others for leaving the faith I can then no longer ask you what the official Islamic belief is.
We have no right to try and interpret God’s Words in a way that will lead us to judge others fate or soul. For me to say, “You deserve death because of [X] sin” God could look into my heart and know that I am also not perfect and therefore I had no right to make a judgement.
Regarding your question on secular laws; Jesus taught us to “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s.” That is, we keep God out of politics. If we are convicted that a death sentence is deserving due to a murder, theft, whatever; it would be abscent from our Biblical beliefs. We don’t have any specific punishments for each sin.
For example; if someone steals something small, something big, lots of something, or a little of something; we aren’t given specific commands on what to do. Now, the person may go to a judge and may be put in prison, but it would have nothing to do with Christianity, rather it would just be the law at work.
However, all this aside the Bible does teach forgiveness and prayer in all situations. If our brother sins against us then forgive him, lead him away from his sin, pray for him, etc. If he goes about sinning then as the Bible says, “let him be like a tax collector to you” that’s to say have nothing to do with him and his sin. How the law gets involved or what happens later has nothing to do with Christianity.
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Contarini
Guest
You can always reread, of course–but I understand if you don’t think it’s worth itAlthough you present some very good discussions in your posts, but they are sometimes so long and you speak about so many different concepts at the same time that I tend to lose the point and get lost therein.
:Some do. I don’t claim to speak for all.
I think the best way to put it is that there is a culmination: Jesus. Jesus is the apex of God’s revelation.
Up to Jesus, we have “progressive revelation.” That is to say, the OT reveals God, and reflects a process in which God was revealing Himself more and more fully to the Hebrew people, but the OT does not fully reveal God–it points to Jesus.
After Jesus, we have progress in understanding the revelation given in Jesus, but no further “public revelation.”
Edwin
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7_Sorrows
Guest
Hi. I checked and most of the celebrities she mentioned are converts. I am not sure some are even still practicing.
Intetesting, some of the male converts also identify themselves as
5% ers. I understand where you are coming from. My post fell on deaf ears?
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Steve7
Guest
I hope that something is going to be done about this. I am going to continue to pray for the Christians that are being persecuted. God bless them
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dronald
Guest
The OT law has been fulfilled so none. But I’m sure that’s not what you’re asking; what you’re asking is, “If I lived in the time of Moses as a Levite, what would sentence me to death?” My answer would be, “a whole lot more.” As I showed you in a couple examples above, picking up sticks on a Sabbath or disobeying one’s parents would get one killed.
The Old Covenant was for the Jewish people for that exact time in that exact place to establish God’s chosen. However, the Bible did call for a New Covenant to come and Jesus brought it so we are no longer bound.
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Servant19
Guest
Just a quick note to say that Sharia Law has also been fulfilled.
We can look at God and His Divine Plan as a whole, or nitpick at specifics deemed necessary for a specific population at a specific time.
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Contarini
Guest
Right. But my point is that if you grant that the Torah was given by God (albeit only for a specific period of time) then it’s a bit odd to accuse Muslims of “acting as God” when they impose the same penalties found in the Torah.
Edwin
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dronald
Guest
I don’t believe I used any such words.
And to be honest I still have not gotten an answer from our Muslim friend on whether or not he believe it right to kill someone for leaving Islam, and that alone. So I have not even judged his interpretation its self as I cannot be certain of the poster’s beliefs.
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peace_at_last
Guest
You see that is the problem you and I have. I believe God gives us guidelines for everything, even how people are to be punished. I find it irrational that God’s erring servants are allowed to come up with methods of punishment but God with all his omniscience, who knows what punishment is best for what crime, can not legislate laws for punishments because we are not to judge peoples hearts. We don’t judge peoples hearts either. God will judge everyones hearts and actions in Judgment day. We judge the actions, based on God’s legislation just like secular governments that judge the actions based on their constitution.
For example, if someone commits murder, we are not judging his heart, we judge his action. Under different secular laws, the murderer can get a range of punishments from living on a 5 Star Island to being hanged. Under the law of God-Who definitely knows better than his erring servants which punishment is more appropriate-one has these choices: 1-Capital punishment, 2-Pay blood money, 3-Forgiveness. God advises number 3 but he has left it up to the deceased’s heir’s to decide for they have suffered the most. You might not know this but in Iran, there are special groups connected to the law enforcement body whose duty is to try to persuade the deceased’s heir to forgive the murderer (of course not for all forms of murder).
The Islamic laws all have forgiveness included in them. As I said in many of the punishments the person in charge can simply put aside the punishment for whatever reason. In some cases if the person orally claims that he has repented he is not to be punished. There are documented instances that people have come to the First Shia Imam (Imam Ali) requesting to be punished for severe sins they had committed but he had told them: No. Simply go and repent to God and ask Him for forgiveness. There is no need for punishment.
I’ve lost count of the number of times I have answered your question: If God deems it appropriate that under specific conditions a sin/crime be met with a harsh punishment, who am I to oppose this order? My answer is obvious and based on the condition that I keep repeating.
You keep repeating the kindness and forgiveness that exists in the bible. I do not deny this but it seems you don’t know much about the guidelines for forgiveness and kindness that exist in (Shia) Islam. How about we create a comparative thread on ethics, Morals, and/or forgiveness in Christianity and Shia Islam and enlighten each other about the guidelines given on these subjects?
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Servant19
Guest
While I agree with the generality of what you are saying here dear friend, it is important to acknowledge the lamentably poor record of “correct judgement” that humans have shown in the past and today.
While I agree that God should be the judger of the murderer and the rapist etc etc, and it is for Him to provide guidance as to what the punishment should be (through Revelation), it is a whole diffeent matter in discerning who was the TRUE murderer, and the TRUE rapist.
False and incorrect judgements are passed down every single day in the Middle East, and for the punishments to be given in these circumstances proves the defectiveness of Sharia Law in todays society. There are today, walking freely in the Middle East, those who are murderers and rapists…and those who were punished (incorrectly) in their place…well
(sad indeed, I’m sure you will agree)The intention is for true justice. Often it is the messenger of true injustice.
I love and honour the intention. The time for it to be implemented is not now…
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