Paying Taxes as an Excuse Against Giving more to the Church

[joe_monk]

What are people’s thoughts on the concept that paying taxes is an excuse against giving more to the Church?

I ask, as I have a friend who makes a fair amount of money, but does not give much when the collection basket is passed around. He and his family volunteer, and certainly have talents that they share with they community. He very much thinks that the times have changed, and that the Church is no longer in need of as much monetary support, as the government has taken on the role of feeding the poor (through things like SNAP and WIC), housing the poor, et cetera… My friend pays taxes, so does not feel any obligation to give more than, let us say, 3% of his income, and makes at least $100,000 a year.

I know that everyone has to follow there own conscience when it comes to giving to the Church, but how does one cultivate a love for the poor, and embrace the Church’s teaching on giving? Or does paying taxes exempt one from giving to the Church?

 

[EasterJoy]

He needs to learn about how much your local St. Vincent de Paul Society does, and how much more they’d do, if they had the money.

 

[Allegra]

I think that’s a pretty lame excuse. The government program give emergency assistance to people who are in dire straits, but many of the programs that Vincent de Paul Society and St. Patrick’s Center run help people before they get there. They provide education, help with addiction, legal troubles, emergency rent and utilities, job training, and all sorts of other things. THat doesn’t even take into account the spiritual programs that help marriages in crises, families dealing with trauma, and other things like that which the government doesn’t touch.

 

[Lorelei12]

He’s very mistaken about how much monetary support the Church needs.

However, it’s not your place to make an assumptions about how much he gives in proportion to his income- “let us say, 3%”, if you don’t actually know.

 

[Xantippe]

He’s very mistaken about how much monetary support the Church needs.

However, it’s not your place to make an assumptions about how much he gives in proportion to his income- “let us say, 3%”, if you don’t actually know.

Right.

Also, there isn’t an official set level of giving.

 

[Operalan]

Let’s also not assume just how much he gives to the Church. Some people give money at other times than just at the collection time. It’s really none of our business how much someone else gives and I’d hate to think that people are looking, during the collection, to see how much our neighbor is putting in.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

How do you know how much someone else gives to the Church? It seems like a highly improper topic of conversation.

 

[Lookingforjoy]

Yeah, I think his reasoning is faulty. However, I also think his giving is none of your business

You could always talk up the great programs the church has and the needs they meet in the community if you want to correct his impression of what the church does and how much society needs active parishes that really give back to the community. What he gives is still none of your concern, though.

 

[joe_monk]

So, context, as well as what the topic of my question is.

Context: My friend volunteered the information to me during the course of a conversation in which we were discussing tithing and giving to the Church, all in the context of family budgeting. I say around 3%, because that was the language my friend used. I gave the numbers as context in regards to the attitude presented by my friend, and was more interested in discussing the attitudes he holds (and not so much the amount he gives).

The Topic: The title of the post “Paying Taxes as an Excuse Against Giving more to the Church”

Not the Topic: Let’s peer into everyone’s wallet to make sure they are giving enough.

I appreciate the advice on learning more about the St. Vincent de Paul Society, I am going to look into that. These are difficult conversations to have, and no one likes talking about money. I think there is a section in the New Testament where Jesus and the Disciples are commenting on specific people giving to the Church, but it ends with Jesus saying “It is none of our business what other people give to the Church.”

 

[CallMeDad]

The taxes were onerous in Jesus’s time, and he never retracted a word of the OT teaching on tithing, e.g., Malachai. In my family, we give most of our donations to the parish, which obviously gets no tax money. Building the Church will build all of the charities by fostering the spirit of God and softening hearts.

It is sometimes hard to talk about tithing, but the Church is all about witness. I feel as if my family has been blessed beyond belief as a result of our commitment to give 10% in thick or thin. I would love to tell others, but I am stopped by the verse that my left hand should not know what my right hand is doing in these matters. My witness could end up sounding like bragging. Yet, we would not be doing it if we did not hear the witness of a deacon who was also blessed by the same commitment to give 10%.

 

[EasterJoy]

…I appreciate the advice on learning more about the St. Vincent de Paul Society, I am going to look into that…

The most frugal charities, the ones that use very little of their funding for fundraising or administration, also make charitable dollars go a very long way.

Here is one example:
svdp.us/
This group uses just shy of 90% of charitable income for providing programs and services:
charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=14738#.VZdQ_flViko

I cite this one because it is the largest nonprofit human services organization in Lane County, Oregon.

I have heard a priest say that those in his parish who tithe 10% of what they make are encouraged not to give over half of that to the parish. He thought that the other half should go to charities that can concentrate more of what they take in directly on services to the poor and who are set up to provide a wider range of services needed by the poor than his particular parish was capable of doing. Your friend might want to look at this like that: that is, even if your parish doesn’t need so much from just one parishioner, those who serve the poor in the area in a very efficient way could do a lot of good with it that the government will not be doing. Your friend might find a local organization that provides financial aid and educational support to young women who are single mothers trying to finish high school. There are many possibilities.

 

[Sunbreak]

Your friend is just using this as an excuse. The truth is, income has to be pretty low for some welfare benefits to kick in, so many people i.e. the working poor are still in need of assistance. Plus, the Church needs money for things other than charity - the buildings have to be maintained, the utilities have to be paid, etc.

 

[SMH_2015]

I have heard that tithing only applied to Jews following the Mosaic law, not Christians. In fact, there’s always a notice in the parish bulletin asking if we’ve given “at least” our first hour of weekly wages to the Church, which would be much less than 10%.

 

[CallMeDad]

I have heard that tithing only applied to Jews following the Mosaic law, not Christians. In fact, there’s always a notice in the parish bulletin asking if we’ve given “at least” our first hour of weekly wages to the Church, which would be much less than 10%.

I am on our parish’s finance council, and I can say that if all of the parishioners gave the equivalent of whatever they are paid for one hour of work the parish finances would be in great shape.

I would also say, again, that my family does give 10% and the blessings have been great. The promises God made to the Jews at the time of Moses or Malachi are as good today as they were then because God is unchanging. I would encourage you to study the Book of Malachi, especially Ch. 3, and do a little research on those who have experienced the leap of faith that tithing really is. I would be happy to tell more about my story if need be. Prior to committing to this, I also tried to convince myself that this was Old Testament stuff, consigned to the dustbin of Biblical history, but I could not satisfy myself of any such thing. Tithing may seem a burden at first but it is truly a liberation in many ways from materialism. Weird but true, at least in our case (my wife and I).

 

[underacloud]

To suggest that government services have negated the need to give to the Church and/or other charities is a remarkably insular viewpoint.

While it *may *be arguable in many wealthy countries that social sevrices and welfare have overtaken the role of the Church in taking care of the poor, this remains the exception and not the norm on a global scale.

The world’s poor are crying out for their fare share of the world’s riches, given by God to us all. Many saints have spoked very provocitavely about how the failure of the rich to give the poor what is their due is the sin of theft.

Now, of course, it is never that easy to determine how much to give, how much to reasonably keep for yourself and your family, taking into account costs of living, etc. But only a (metaphorically) blind person could pretend that their need to give has been negated.

I shudder sometimes thinking that one day I will be called to account for some of my own decadences.

 

[silver_moon]

So, context, as well as what the topic of my question is.

Context: My friend volunteered the information to me during the course of a conversation in which we were discussing tithing and giving to the Church, all in the context of family budgeting. I say around 3%, because that was the language my friend used. I gave the numbers as context in regards to the attitude presented by my friend, and was more interested in discussing the attitudes he holds (and not so much the amount he gives).

The Topic: The title of the post “Paying Taxes as an Excuse Against Giving more to the Church”

Not the Topic: Let’s peer into everyone’s wallet to make sure they are giving enough.

I appreciate the advice on learning more about the St. Vincent de Paul Society, I am going to look into that. These are difficult conversations to have, and no one likes talking about money. I think there is a section in the New Testament where Jesus and the Disciples are commenting on specific people giving to the Church, but it ends with Jesus saying “It is none of our business what other people give to the Church.”

Does he have a large family? Are there any other expenses such as medical conditions that he’s dealing with? You don’t have to answer this here, but I can’t tell if he’s really living well on that salary or has a lot of people to support. His attitude could be caring for family, or it could be saving money or buying nice things, it’s hard to tell. Or some combination.

 

[CatholicSheila]

While it *may *be arguable in many wealthy countries that social sevrices and welfare have overtaken the role of the Church in taking care of the poor, this remains the exception and not the norm on a global scale.

The world’s poor are crying out for their fare share of the world’s riches, given by God to us all. Many saints have spoked very provocitavely about how the failure of the rich to give the poor what is their due is the sin of theft.

I somewhat agree with the sentiment expressed in the OP, with regards to Australia. I rarely give to charities based in and for Australians as a result. Even the very poor here are rich compared to what we see over seas, primarily as a result of the intervention of the government and my taxes.

I can’t say the same is true for those living in impoverished countries. Even if my charity dollars aren’t needed here, there are plenty of people crying out for help in other areas that I can give to.

 

[iepuras]

The tax bill as a percentage of gross income is higher when one gets into six figures. Not to get too much into TMI, but my income has increased significantly over the past 5 years and have seen my relative tax burden also increase significantly as a percentage of gross. Tax breaks such as child tax credits, child care credits and personal exemptions are also reduced or eliminated on top of higher marginal tax rates.

Higher income can mean higher expenses too. Due to my income, my children do not qualify for public pre-k that I pay for with my taxes. So my children are on an equal educational footing as their poorer peers, I have to pay for private pre-school, which is far from inexpensive.

I’m not trying to justify his lack of giving to the church, but you probably don’t know what your friend’s total financial outlook is. What is his total tax bill? How much goes to his retirement accounts? How much goes to paying for children’s higher education, private school or after-school care? What are his health care expenses like? How many dependents does he have whether it be children or elderly parents? Does he only give to the church or does he give to other charitable organizations? While he probably told you too much about his personal finances, there is probably still a lot that you do not know.

If you look at just what I put in the collection basket on Sundays, you could make the judgement that I do not care about the Church or the poor. Yet, I separately give to organizations that help the poor in the Middle East and Africa, a monastery, apostolates involved in evangelization and help support my in-laws including paying for their health care. When I buy gifts, I try to buy them from monasteries and convents to help them support themselves. I also pay a lot in taxes and have paid a lot more in recent years on a percentage basis than I did when I made less than $100k. And yes, I will complain about how much I pay in taxes. Because I pay a lot in taxes, I tend to not give to organizations that help the poor in the United States. I try to focus that giving to those who are truly poor around the world.

While I agree that the government has taken on a lot of charitable giving through our taxes, that doesn’t absolve us from helping the poor around the world. Nor does it excuse how we treat the poor in our own country. Much of the charity provided by the government is demoralizing and ignores the dignity of the poor. That is where there is much room for improvement.