PBS special on the Mormons

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BumpSetSpike said:
It would be great if everyone could use these things (or anything) in moderation, but you and I both know that there will always be people who take advantage of it. The LDS church just doesn’t want to chance allowing something “only if in moderation” that could make someone dependent or addicted to that thing, including coffee.

Of course the church also provides services like AA meetings if something does happen, it’s not like they shun an individual who has an addiction.

Anywho, that pretty much explains it. It’s mostly just for yor own health but also so one can have the most focus they can on their own spirituality instead of having to focus on satifying an unnecessary dependancy.
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Yeah, I think it is a good thing overall. I disagree with the need for a religious body to prohibit the use of anything that God has provided for our use and enjoyment, but I certainly understand the place for religious discipline. I once belonged to a church that didn’t allow men to have beards, or women to cut their hair. The women also were expected to cover every inch of their bodies with clothing except their hands and faces. With their long long hair and the old-fashioned style dresses they wore, it often seemed like something out of 1850 to be in that church. When we went on the annual church picnic, the women and men couldn’t swim together at the same time in the pool. We’d take our turns swimming, men with men, women with women. This was in San Francisco… These people have hardcore faith. Mostly working class people, small educations, very simple, very passionate about their faith. No smoking, no drinking, no fooling around, though they didn’t have any problems with coffee, as I recall.
 
Something that REALLY bothered me from the second night was the explanation of the baptism of the dead. I had always assumed this was done for members of the lds church, for their dead relatives. I had no idea that they had a huge complex in the mountains designed to gather names of dead people and that they baptized those people in their temples. I find that incredibly rude, and uneccessary, and downright disgusting. The dead are dead, leave them alone. If they didn’t chose to be mormon in life, leave them alone in death.

I for one would be very angry to find that my dead mother and father, baptized cathlics, were baptized lds after dead. Even though it’s false and holds no power, they shouldn’t be doing such things.
 
thomasf said:
Something that REALLY bothered me from the second night was the explanation of the baptism of the dead. I had always assumed this was done for members of the lds church, for their dead relatives. I had no idea that they had a huge complex in the mountains designed to gather names of dead people and that they baptized those people in their temples. I find that incredibly rude, and uneccessary, and downright disgusting. The dead are dead, leave them alone. If they didn’t chose to be mormon in life, leave them alone in death.

I for one would be very angry to find that my dead mother and father, baptized cathlics, were baptized lds after dead. Even though it’s false and holds no power, they shouldn’t be doing such things.
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Try not to be so bitter. I mean, not that you have to accept it and not that I’m justifying it, but just try to practice a little understanding here.

If you truly believed that you were allowing the dead, who “would have accepted the truth if they’d had the chance” to learn the “gospel”, and move on from a spirit prison (purgatory, in more familiar terms) into Heaven (as you can’t enter Heaven without baptism), would you do it? Also, keep in mind that the dead have a say in it too. It is taught in the LDS church that the dead can either accept the baptism or deny it. LDS members believe they are saving souls by this practice.
 
Both my best friend (very LDS) and I (very Catholic) found the PBS special very shallow. In four hours we both felt it could have delved deeper. Some of my family members in other states watched it then called us to talk about it. That we are saturated here in “Mormon central north” they knew we had a lot of experience. One said, “That’s it? That is what the controversy is all about?”

I told my best friend that it really didn’t answer any of the real questions about LDS theology. She was frustrated at how long was spent talking about current plural marriage practitioners. She said, “They aren’t Mormon so why spend time talking about them?” I said it would have been more helpful to delve on the why they used to practice plural marriage yet don’t anymore except on a celestial level. (An LDS male who is married in the temple can be married in the temple again if his first wife should die. An LDS woman cannot.)

I said to my Catholic family members in other states that it could be very helpful in helping those who have never really heard of “The Mormons” to get a better education about them. Those of us who know waaaaay more than we ever thought we wanted to know about them would not find any new knowledge in it. As someone saturated in LDS life, I found it fairly accurate yet about as deep as a toddler swimming pool. My best friend did not find anything to be inaccurate either. She would probably agree with me that the presentation was as deep as a toddler pool. But she strongly disagrees with me since I find the entire LDS theology about that deep too.

Some discussions are best made slowly over many years.
 
I never personally knew a Mormon until I worked for a dentist who was one. He was wonderful and so nice. He offered me an internship with him. When I told him the name of the parochial school my son attended, I picked up on a slight frown. As time went by, I worked to find common ground with our beliefs and we did share alot of the same common morality. One day before work, as we served the poorest in town, we prayed. I did note his approach was a little different. But still I came to have alot of respect for him and his religion.
I wanted to find out more about it, so I went to a Deseret store. I saw this book entitled, ‘The Pearl of Great Price’. However when I opened it up, it revealed the whole construct of Mormonism was that the Catholic Church was the great apostate church, only it used a bad name, and the protestant churches were its daughters. I believe anti-Catholic rituals were used up to 1997 in their rites. I began to search more about this anti-Catholicism and was starting to see a cult-like control on its people not to question their faith and to see our Catholic faith through this construct they seemed to be indoctrinated against.
I also went to the Mormon TV program that is on the next station after EWTN. I saw wonderful mothers and all their works, fraternal leadership and great sentiment and love.
Then this past week in this assisted living, the Jewish man I care for brought up the program and the Mormons’ claim of coming from some lost Hebrew tribe who came to America. He shook his head. The I took him to a foot doctor. We had the assistant help us. She was from Salt Lake City. The Jewish man asked her if she was Mormon and she said yes. He then said she was very nice and also added that he saw the PBS program. She seemed a little upset in response. But we left affirming her kindness and apparent goodness, but I also said sometimes the leadership defines others and people need to really communicate among each other to really find out what each others’ beliefs are.
Finally a Catholic man who works in apologetics with Mormons told me it is very hard for them to leave if they so decide, may be more so for those in Utah, as they are defellowshipped.
Anyway, my take on Mormons is divided. I have a very high opinion of them and their family nights, I think they have the best youth programs and the parents are so devoted to their families compared to other Christian families. But the people are not really being taught the truth about Catholicism.
 
Whatever you think about Mormon beliefs, the second episode had to make a point of slamming some of the conservative values held by Mormoms - especially large family size and an all-male priesthood.

Yes they had some stuff about how great it is to be part of a large family, but to “balance” it, they had to pick a poor, widowed man whose wife died during the birth of her eighth child. The implication was that she would have been alive today if her beliefs hadn’t made her decide to have another child despite her age and some previous health problems.

Let’s get real. Tons more women decide to have babies at late ages and with lots of medical complications, not because of their faith, but because they have decided to focus on career, or want to have a child in their second marriage.

Being a Catholic homeschooler, I do know a lot of women, myself included, having a 5th, 6th, etc. baby in their forties, but I know a lot more women having their 1st or 2nd baby in their late thirties and forties because of the reasons mentioned above!

And the all-male priesthood? Well you can always drag out a bunch of disgruntled feminists or ex-Catholics who have the same problem with our Church.

Carol M.
 
I certainly agree that some of the issues the Mormons special raised are problems that face Christianity in general.

Although I thought it was mostly fair, I was a little miffed when the homosexual man was interviewed. They mostly dwelt on his failed marriage and the problem of dealing with homosexuality and trying to be a Mormon/Christian. But they took a very sympathetic approach to the gay man and never really mentioned that most Christians believe it is damaging to society. The consequences go further than just your church membership.

For the poor people who suffer from this problem, they were too sympathetic to really be of any use to them. I think some sort of realistic approach acknowledging the consequences of sin in general would have been helpful and the struggles of homosexual Christians, trying to reconcile the two. Everyone struggles with some sort of temptation. But they just grabbed this trendy issue and waved it around for some sympathy.
 
I enjoyed the PBS special. I thought it was representative of the conversation that takes place between members and non-members of the LDS church. None of the issues presented were new to me. I see the topics presented in the show repeat themselves regularly on this forum.

I believe the show was a baptism into the world of religious debate for many members of the LDS church. Now they get to visualize Joseph Smith stuffing his face into a hat to translate the Book of Mormon. For some this will be unsettling. Their initial reaction will be defensive. I’ve already seen the dismay.

With time I believe their analyzing, studying, prayer, and meditation will lead to some heart felt conversations with their Father in Heaven and a better understanding of their faith. I’ve enjoyed the process.

I got a kick out of seeing the microfiche vaults located in Little Cottonwood Canyon, Utah. In the summer of 1983 or 84 I worked in the vaults pulling microfiche rolls for copying. Those vaults are large with rows of 8 feet tall file cabinets. While Salt Lake City was hitting 90 degree temperatures I was wearing a jacket deep inside the mountain. Every day I went back to the farthest part of vault where the native granite was still exposed. I took readings off a water meter that measured the flowrate of a small spring that provided water for processing the microfiche. There’s an interesting story they tell about the spring but I’ll save that for another day.

The vault is actually a number of different rooms carved out of the mountain. There are three main passage ways that go straight into the mountain. The passage ways are then connected by 6 (if I remember right) large rooms that run parallel to the face of the mountain. One room was always locked. Once in awhile a Church authority would come and unlock the room and go inside. I was told the Church archived literature in that vault.
 
The show seemed like a glossy pamplet Mormons distribute and I have seen plenty of those.

The Mormons truly have a romantic notion - “*the church is true” - *of their quasi political, social & religious (where are the crosses or crucifixes in the temples?) institution. It is woven so deeply into the fabric of their lives that no wonder it is difficult to leave it - you can lose everything you love - tightly knit ward, neighbors, family, job, etc… Little kids taught to sing about hoping to be called to a mission when older - they start prepping them quite young…

Interesting how dangerous & brutal conditions it could be for young missionaries in distant places so I appreciated that aspect of the show.

I was disappointed Sandra Tanner was not interviewed. She & her late husband Gerald put out a what I believe is a milestone book I read in the 1980’s: “The Changing World of Mormonism.” She has worked for years @ the Utah Lighthouse Ministry (website also). Sandra was a great (-great?) granddaughter of Brigham Young (mormon royalty).

They could have interviewed some high powered apologists especially from our own Catholic Answers or Catholic theologians so I felt the show lacked balance in that respect.

A fascinating book about the life of Joseph Smith by Fawn Brodie (historian) “No Man Knows My History” which Mormon heirarcy requested Brodie to write & kicked her out of the Church after she published it.

The sad part is the deception of the basis/founding of the church in the first place. People were sucked in by the persuasive personalities of Smith & Young & others who filled a need in their lives. Smith died with a weapon in this hand in the Carthage jail break if I’m not mistaken & Brigham Young found a way to indulge his lust by taking on 27 wives (See Irving Wallace book, “The Twenty Seventh Wife” at least the 27th came to her senses & left him). NT verse that clearly says no marriage in heaven just leaves me shaking my head - seemingly intelligent & educated people bypass that and other scriptures. To me this is religious ‘improvise as you go’ to get what you want & especially when you are in a tight spot. The worst is they will be “as Gods.” That lie came from the Garden and is still an effective strategy used by the serpent so why change what works. God says in the OT “I AM” & He knows of no other; there are none besides Me!!!

Are the actions of Smith & Young examples of Christ-like behavior - “put on the mind of Christ”, “Pick up your cross & follow Me”, etc?

I too worked for a Mormon dentist & he tried for years to convert me but something deep inside urged me to do my homework which I did. He was quite successful in converting many staff members throughout the years and this lead me to read the above books & more. I came back to the Catholic Church as a result. The most striking point that I will *never forget *one time Dr. said was there are “only 2 true churches, the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church” as the Protestant Churches all came out of the Catholic Church but the Catholic Church apostated & fell away!!! I think I told him that truth doesn’t exist in 2 forms and Jesus said “the gates of hell shall not prevail against My Church” & are you calling Jesus a liar or incapable of running His Church? Despite that and many, many conversations, I have fond memories of Dr. But I told him in death you will know the truth about the Trinity, sacraments, Blessed Mother, the REAL Saints (and the folly of anything else). Now I ask Jesus to ask Dr. to pray for me!!!

The LDS missionaries are so adept at persuation and sticking with the script and proselytize wherever they go. And after their missions, they keep it up. To catch a big fish such as a Catholic is a very big catch indeed (Patrick Madrid recently told a story on EWTN radio about a Catholic priest that left & became Mormon). There are many reasons why people convert to Mormonism. When you look at Mormons’ squeekly clean appearance and temperance, which this show did a masterful job of presenting, they apparently have a lot to offer on the outside. But the sad & shocking part I discovered is what they really believe about Christian truth and how opposite they are to that reality. By their**fruits (of potential godhood!?:eek: ) *** you shall know them.
 
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