"Peaceful" Buddhism vs. "Violent" Christianity

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precious_roy:
Question:
If your religion happened to have beliefs that followed the Four Noble Truths, why couldn’t you achieve enlightenment outside of Buddhism? Just curious.
If your religion is consistent with the four noble truths, then your religion might be considered small ‘b’ buddhist (rather than big ‘B’ Buddhist, or officially Buddhist). Whether small ‘b’, big ‘B’ – both lead to the big ‘E’ Enlightenment.😃
Also it is not the belief of Christians, or at least myself if no one else is on this wagon, that you must be a Christian to have salvation. 😃
That’s good to know.🙂
 
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precious_roy:
Oops, I’m sorry. I just reread what you wrote and my response about salvation really made no sense. I think what you are saying is:

Buddhism
Enlightment = great, not Enlightment = average

Christianity
Salvation = great, not Salvation = really bad
That’s about right. Though I have to admit that Buddhist texts do warn people not to fall in the “really bad” hells. Even though the hells are not literally eternal, you could find yourself spending eons and eons of time in them.

So I would write the equation thus:

Enlightenment= great. Non-Enlightenment =very good to very bad.
 
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Ahimsa:
That’s about right. Though I have to admit that Buddhist texts do warn people not to fall in the “really bad” hells. Even though the hells are not literally eternal, you could find yourself spending eons and eons of time in them.

So I would write the equation thus:

Enlightenment= great. Non-Enlightenment =very good to very bad.
Whats a really bad hell?

And wouldn’t a ‘hell’ really only last like 1 lifetime or do I not understand reincarnation correctly? Is it generally believed that people ‘lapse’ into many consecutive lifetimes of suffering?
 
Ask them to name for you more than a handful of peaceful Buddist Countries if they can name that many.
 
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mikeledes:
Okay guys and gals, I need some dirt on Buddhism or Buddhists. Several people that I know have compared the peacefulness of Buddhist countries with the violence of Christian/ Catholic ones. The implication being that Buddhism is a superior form of spirituality. Does Buddhism have any skeletons in its closet?

God Bless
Sorry to say, but Bubbhism has reached a peaceful state of practice, only in which Christians san only hope to reach. Buddhism isn’t stainless, but it is by far more peaceful in the past than Christianity.
 
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Fiat:
I think the Chinese experienced much more terror from Buddhist Japan than they ever did from any European Christian nation.

Fiat
Japan also widely practices Shintoism, which reall isn’t important, but Just because a country is primarily of a faith, you can’t say that someone suffered more from that religion because of the actions of that country. Plus you apparently aren’t aware of the imperialist actions of the Christian world that affected China. They suffered loss of culture, forced servitude, and large deaths from putting down revolts of Chinese who didn’t want to be under Euopean and American dominance. I think you were reffering to WWII with the Japan comment, but that was an isolated time. Christianity have been very active in imperial conquest and expansion.
 
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precious_roy:
Whats a really bad hell?

And wouldn’t a ‘hell’ really only last like 1 lifetime or do I not understand reincarnation correctly? Is it generally believed that people ‘lapse’ into many consecutive lifetimes of suffering?
Technically, a hell does only last for one lifetime – but not necessarily an earthly-human lifetime of 100 years or so. A hellish lifetime might be 1,000 human lifetimes; how long you stay, depends upon the intensity of your negative mindset and actions. A person headed for a hell, would take birth into that hell, live out his lifetime in that hell, and then “die” from that hell and be born someplace else (hopefully, a more pleasant place). According to Buddhist texts, we’ve all spent some time in hell in the past.

The Buddhist texts can get really graphic in describing the hells (which come in both hot and cold versions). In fact, there are some Tibetan Buddhists who believe in something called “Avici” hell, which (for Tibetan Buddhists) is the worse hell imaginable – you can get out of that hell, but only if someone finds you and rescues you. You can’t get out of it by your own power.

Of course, many Buddhists do interpret “hell” to refer to psychological and moral states that exist within this human lifetime. And then again, many Buddhists don’t.
 
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BryPGuy89:
Japan also widely practices Shintoism, which reall isn’t important, but Just because a country is primarily of a faith, you can’t say that someone suffered more from that religion because of the actions of that country. Plus you apparently aren’t aware of the imperialist actions of the Christian world that affected China. They suffered loss of culture, forced servitude, and large deaths from putting down revolts of Chinese who didn’t want to be under Euopean and American dominance. I think you were reffering to WWII with the Japan comment, but that was an isolated time. Christianity have been very active in imperial conquest and expansion.
If you review the original post, the point of the question focused on the general religious affiliation of the country in question, and not whether a specific religion directed the violence. Secondly, although shintoism is native to Japan, Buddhism is widespread in Japan and has been for at least the past couple centuries, particularly Zen, or some combination of Shintoism and Buddhism. Lastly, to suggest that the Chinese lost their culture to the Europeans is preposterous. Certainly, western influence has caused a measure of revolt among the Chinese, but the Chinese have hardly lost their identity. Even in the face of communism, Chinese culture has still survived.

Fiat
 
So I guess Buddhism is more peaceful? Why wasn’t Christianity as “peaceful” as Buddhism? Is it not the true faith?
 
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Ahimsa:
The difference separating Buddhist exclusivism and Christian exclusivism is that Buddhism doesn’t argue that anyone is eternally condemned to hell: your path might not lead to enlightenment, but that doesn’t mean you’ll suffer eternal fire and brimstone for eternity.
In Buddhism everyone gets ot nirvana eventually. There is no eternal hell nor any eternal heaven though there are many non-eternal versions of both. Even in the hells there is hope of nirvana.

The Buddha classified non-Buddhist religions as helpful or not helpful. To be helpful a religion has at least to maintain the link between moral actions and moral results (karma) and to avoid animal or human sacrifice. A helpful religion will keep you moving in the right direction even if it can’t get you as far as nirvana. Most of us are a very long way from enlightenment so anything that gets us even a little bit closer is helpful. Aztec religion and some extreme forms of Calvinism would not be considered helpful, the first because of human sacrifice and the second because they break the link between moral actions and moral results.
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precious_roy:
If your religion happened to have beliefs that followed the Four Noble Truths, why couldn’t you achieve enlightenment outside of Buddhism?
You could. However if a religion followed the Four Noble Truths and led to enlightenment then it would effectively be Buddhism. Shakyamuni Buddha is just the latest in a long line of fully enlightened Buddhas who all rediscovered the Path to enlightenment and preached about it. Eventually the Buddhist religion as we have it will die out and will later be re-established by the next fully enlightened Buddha, Maitreya. Even during periods when there is no Buddhist religion it is possible for exceptional individuals to enlighten themselves, they are called Pacceka Buddahs, “Private Buddhas”. From a Buddhist perspective such people are Buddhists since they follow the same Path. The Buddha did not make the Path, it is built into the universe so it is in principle open to anyone to discover it for themselves. Previous Buddhas rediscovered it before Shakyamuni Buddha and other Buddhas will rediscover it in future.

rossum
 
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mikeledes:
Okay guys and gals, I need some dirt on Buddhism or Buddhists. Several people that I know have compared the peacefulness of Buddhist countries with the violence of Christian/ Catholic ones. The implication being that Buddhism is a superior form of spirituality. Does Buddhism have any skeletons in its closet?

God Bless
Study Asian history. Seriously. No need for dirt, just read the history books. War upon attrocity upon war. Not worse than Western history, just standard human behavior with lots of religious justification. Buddhism was traditionally a proselytizing faith as well, so add in all the standard fun that goes along with that sort of thing: forced conversions, death-penalties for non-believers, armed suppression of local religions, you name it. Again, standard human stuff.

Peace and God bless!
 
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rossum:
Looking at the scriptures, Buddhism is indeed more peaceful; the Buddha kills far fewer people that the OT God does.

Buddhists have of course been involved in wars. The wars do not get a lot of mention in the history books in the West because they mostly happened before the arrival of westerners in Buddhist countries. Examples that come to mind are the long standing Tamil/Sinhalese conflict in Sri Lanka, the wars between different sects of Tibetan monks (the first Dalai Lama won by allying himself with the Mongols) and the wars between different sects of Buddhist monks in Japan which tended to break out when central control was weak.

In short Buddhists all too often fall short of the best ideals of their religion, just as Christians sometimes do. I do think that there is a real difference in the respective scriptures in that there is far less killing in Buddhist scriptures. The New Testament is a lot better in this respect than the Old.(Quote)

Buddhhism is an off shoot of Hinduism, Siddharth who became the Buddha was a hindu prince , who formed a new religion. Part of the reason it spread like wild fire when it was first formed in India was as a reaction to the Hindu caste system, Buddha preached that all men were equal. The early Buddhists destroyed many Hindu temple over which they built their own. they were not particularly violent though. However I doubt if the original religion taught by Buddha still exists.
 
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Fiat:
If you review the original post, the point of the question focused on the general religious affiliation of the country in question, and not whether a specific religion directed the violence. Secondly, although shintoism is native to Japan, Buddhism is widespread in Japan and has been for at least the past couple centuries, particularly Zen, or some combination of Shintoism and Buddhism. Lastly, to suggest that the Chinese lost their culture to the Europeans is preposterous. Certainly, western influence has caused a measure of revolt among the Chinese, but the Chinese have hardly lost their identity. Even in the face of communism, Chinese culture has still survived.

Fiat
To associate a religion with the behavior of a nation is rediculous. If France and Britain faught again would it be a war of Christian beleifs, Christians killing Christians for Christian beleifs and teachings? Nein! It is just war and not of religious affiliation.
You are apparently unaware of imperialism in the 1800’s. China was divided into districts, each owned by another Western country. The countries would use the Chinese to do what they wanted and when they didn’t they would be punished.
Are you familiar with India? After British rule, one country, their culture and ways were disrupted and many things were lost and changed.
 
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BryPGuy89:
To associate a religion with the behavior of a nation is rediculous. If France and Britain faught again would it be a war of Christian beleifs, Christians killing Christians for Christian beleifs and teachings? Nein! It is just war and not of religious affiliation.
You are apparently unaware of imperialism in the 1800’s. China was divided into districts, each owned by another Western country. The countries would use the Chinese to do what they wanted and when they didn’t they would be punished.
Are you familiar with India? After British rule, one country, their culture and ways were disrupted and many things were lost and changed.
Dear BryPGuy89:
If you review the original post, you will see that I was not the one making the connection between the religious affilation of the the people of a nation and the actions of the nation itself. Whether you think the connection is a ridiculous one or not is your prerogative, but the connection was not made by me in the first place. Although I see some potential correlation between the two, I agree that the two are not necessarily the same.

Second, of course I am aware of European imperialism. I am also aware of Chinese Imperialism and Japanese Imperialism. What is your point, exactly? You stated in a previous post that Chinese culture was “lost.” And that simply is not the case.

Fiat
 
If I’m not mistaken, Shaolin Kung Fu was developed by a Budhist monk as well several other styles of Kung Fu. There are many similarities between Christianity and Budhism. It has all evolved in similar ways, especially the idea of fighting and killing only if there is no other alternative and it is a just fight. When saying christianity is violant, I believe is not doing it justice. We have to differentiate between the real history of the church and the false lies distributed by the enemy’s of the catholic church. Sure the Old Testament was full of examples of the Hebrews wiping out cities in the name of God much the same way the Muslims do today but the Old Testament is also a History of the Jewish people. They and God were not entirely violent prior to the exodus but I think what is more important in those stories are not the acts of violence themselves but the idea of God’s intolerance for those who willfully continue to fight against him. Those people were, in the Hebrews eyes, God’s enemy and the stories are examples of the great power of God when he stands with those who are rightous in God.
 
Ummmm If I am not mistaken Buddism was never supposed to be a religion, it was a philosophy. I venture to guess if all Buddists moved in next to Moslems they would be extinct in say like 30 seconds…
 
Ummmm If I am not mistaken Buddism was never supposed to be a religion, it was a philosophy. I venture to guess if all Buddists moved in next to Moslems they would be extinct in say like 30 seconds…
They do. The Muslims once conquered India and had influence in areas as far east as China (and I think they still do).
 
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ComradeAndrei:
They do. The Muslims once conquered India and had influence in areas as far east as China (and I think they still do).
And Pakistan was created because Muslims and Hindus could not live peacably with one another.
 
I’m not certain of these facts because it was so long ago that I learned this…but didn’t the man (buddha) who founded this religion, abandon his wife and children to go off seeking enlightenment? If true, would anyone want to follow the beliefs of this fellow?
 
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