Peaceful Muslims, are they CAFETERIA MUSLIMS???

[Contarini]

The ‘if ever justifiable’ bit is too much. Are you saying that in order to judge a belief system fully and truly, you have to be apart of that belief system?

To judge it on its own terms, of course. We can judge it as being true or false, good or bad (though I think we should be cautious even there and not over-generalize). But you can’t poss

Because you said you were not knowledgeable about Islam. Furthermore, I cant predict what you are going to read after your most recent statement about your direct knowledge of Islam.

I said I wasn’t very knowledgeable. Very knowledgeable means that I know Arabic and have spent years studying Islam and am familiar with various traditions of Islamic law and so on. I think it’s hilarious that merely reading the Qur’an makes someone “very knowledgeable” in your book.

I don’t think any non-Muslim on this board is knowledgeable enough to make sweeping generalizations about Islam.

But you cannot simply dismiss it if evidence is provided to you without addressing that evidence. Like an explanation why Byzantium, a Christian kingdom, was forcibly conquered and converted through coercion over a period of 1000 years by muslim kingdoms.

First of all, “converted through coercion” is a bit misleading. There were large Christian communities in the former Byzantine territory at the end of Islamic rule–the reason there are hardly any Christians in Turkey today is that there was an exchange of populations after WWI (note that there are hardly any Muslims in Greece either). There was plenty of coercion involved, of course.

I have never denied that Islam was spread by the sword. I was responding to the argument that this was the *only *way it was spread and that people do not convert to Islam willingly. This is clearly false.

It would be perfectly appropriate for an outsider to claim that Mormonism is not truly Christian. For one, they would be right,

Not historically, no they wouldn’t. Mormonism is historically a form of Christianity. It is clearly centered around the person and work of Jesus, it develops out of Christianity, and it considers itself to be Christian. It is just as Christian as early Jewish Christianity was Jewish (not to mention modern Messianic Judaism).

Theologically, Mormonism rejects key aspects of orthodox Christianity, so that we cannot consider Mormons to be members of the Church in any sense. But that’s not an outsider’s business.

and second Mormonism also practices aggressive missionary programs, which can directly affect an outsiders life.

How is that relevant?

I dont understand why it is inappropriate for a person to make judgments about other cultures or religions that differ from his own?

I never said that. One can, for instance, judge that certain of Muhammad’s actions were immoral. One can judge that specific Islamic teachings and practices are false and/or morally wrong. We should be careful to make sure that we understand what we are talking about first, but there’s nothing wrong in principle with making such judgments.

I am specifically talking about judging a particular Islamic idea to be really Muslim or not. That’s simply none of our business.

Why should we care if Islam winds up morphing into something much more benign than it has been in the past? Wouldn’t that be a good thing? Why should we insist that Muslims must be faithful to the teachings of the Qur’an as *we *understand them? Can’t you see how absurd this is?

I am actually concerned about Islam becoming *more *vicious than it has been in the past. And it’s been plenty vicious.

Edwin

 

[redmars3000]

Mormonism rejects Jesus as the God Christianity believes in. Rather a man that can become God. This is quite opposite of Christian (catholic and protestant) belief, hence it is not Christian. You can call them Christian but you have just given the word a new meaning and eventually using the word in this way makes it meaningless. Like the word ‘gentleman’ no longer implies one is is from the nobility.

What criterion are you going to use to decide what is “authentic” Islam? For Muslims the Qur’an is the Word of God. For us it is a historical document. Those two approaches give rise to fundamentally different hermeneutics. (Hence the huge debates in modern Christianity over how to interpret our own Scriptures, since many of us are bravely trying to treat them as historical documents and the Word of God at the same time, while others have picked one or the other of the options.)

Someone who doesn’t accept the Islamic assumptions about the Qur’an can’t possibly judge one Islamic interpretation to be superior to another *on Islamic terms. *That’s all I’m saying.

But that point is meaningless, who cares whether or not it is an interpretation that can be viewed as ‘right’ or ‘authentic’ from an Islamic perspective. You are basically saying that since you can never fully understand something you cant make a judgment about it. Your assertion that one cannot make a claim that they know the true meaning or authentic interpretation of Islam is contradicted because later you even admit that Islam is not true in any absolute sense! Is that not an ‘authentic judgment’ by you?

I take it you are a member of the American Episcopal church.

 

[Jedda]

No,

Most of the Radical Moslims are like most protestants, taking the Koran out of total context, by choosing the verses that support their belief while ignoring the ones that don’t.

 

[Contarini]

Mormonism rejects Jesus as the God Christianity believes in. Rather a man that can become God. This is quite opposite of Christian (catholic and protestant) belief, hence it is not Christian. You can call them Christian but you have just given the word a new meaning and eventually using the word in this way makes it meaningless.

I do not accept them as adhering to the same Christianity I do. But from an outsider’s perspective there would be no reason not to call them Christian. Do you really want non-Christians deciding Christian orthodoxy? That’s essentially what you are advocating, and what those who speak of “authentic Islam” are practicing with regard to other religions. I didn’t know that non-Christians were part of the Magisterium!!!

But that point is meaningless, who cares whether or not it is an interpretation that can be viewed as ‘right’ or ‘authentic’ from an Islamic perspective.

Anyone who speaks about “Cafeteria Muslims” is making a claim from an Islamic perspective. That’s my point. It’s a silly thing to do from the start. You may not care, but the OP apparently cared or we wouldn’t have this thread at all!

You are basically saying that since you can never fully understand something you cant make a judgment about it.

No, I’m saying nothing of the kind.

Your assertion that one cannot make a claim that they know the true meaning or authentic interpretation of Islam is contradicted because later you even admit that Islam is not true in any absolute sense! Is that not an ‘authentic judgment’ by you?

First of all, I reject Islam because of my Christian faith, not because I claim to have studied it exhaustively and determined that it cannot possibly be true.

However, yet again you are missing my point. I am not talking about making judgments about the truth or falsehood of Islam (which obviously applies only to Islam as we understand it). I am talking about trying to discern that one form of Islam is more “authentic” to the Islamic tradition itself than some other form. I repeat: we have no criteria on which to make such a judgment. As Christians, we can only judge Islam by Christian criteria. It’s hypocritical and absurd to judge one form of Islam by the criteria of some other form which for whatever reason we find more “authentic” (on this forum, the choice of “authentic” Islam is usually dictated by anti-Islamic prejudice; in other circles, it is dictated by a falsely pluralistic agenda that seeks to portray all religions as basically benign–both practices are equally silly).

Edwin

 

[dessert]

Mormonism rejects Jesus as the God Christianity believes in. Rather a man that can become God. This is quite opposite of Christian (catholic and protestant) belief, hence it is not Christian. You can call them Christian but you have just given the word a new meaning and eventually using the word in this way makes it meaningless. Like the word ‘gentleman’ no longer implies one is is from the nobility.QUOTE]

SO are the Pakistanians peaceful muslins or cafeteria muslins or something else? Dessert

 

[Aprilbaby]

You think this, but you haven’t provided a shred of evidence for your opinion. Don’t you think that if you are going to make sweeping claims about another religion, you ought to have some sort of basis for these claims? You appear to be pulling these things out of your hat (or perhaps getting them from some equally ill-informed person).

I don’t claim to be very knowledgeable about Islam myself. Which is why I would never make these kinds of claims about what is or is not “real” Islam. Neither you nor I have any grounds for these assertions.

Edwin

Very good reply I was going to say the same. In Bridgeview Illinois there are so many Muslims and strangest thing is all the “infidels” are still alove very odd…hmm maybe Just MAYBE it’s not true?

We are all different and should embrace our differences.

 

[tawheedah]

Say, I’ve read that if a Muslim doesn’t accept jihad they aren’t considered real Muslims. They are, in fact, Cafeteria Muslims. A real Muslim kills the infidel.

Just like our very conservative Traditionalists observe strictly all Church edicts, and then some, strict Muslims are extreme in the tenets of Islam. Whereas a strict Catholic prays the Rosary daily, goes to benediction and daily Mass, goes to Confession, offers sufftering to Jesus, is strict in Church, so the strict Muslim is also devoted to Islam in the same way. They are willing to fight and die for the faith, while trying to kill the infidils. A Christian becomes a missionary, starting hospitals and schools in Africa. A Muslim’s idea of spreading the faith is to terrorize those who reject it, and kill them as needed.

So, I think a ‘moderate Muslim’ is another term for a Cafeteria Muslim.

Do you even know what the term “jihad” means? Do you read books or just watch Fox News?? Jihad means striving in the way of Allah. Most Jihad is inner turmoil within oneself. Jihad does not mean Holy War.

 

[tawheedah]

I forgot to add, the way that we “spread” Islam, is called dawah. We call to Islam, we give people information and they freely decide whether or not they wish to revert. No one forces anyone.

 

[Mickey]

Jihad means striving in the way of Allah. Most Jihad is inner turmoil within oneself. Jihad does not mean Holy War.

Yes. This is the way it is supposed to be understood. Sadly, the radicals have perverted the interpretation.

 

[Aprilbaby]

Thats what I personally like about being around “Muslim land” as I refer to it No one starts preaching to me. Don’t get me wrong I believe in God but I believe he should be seeked and felt, and found not shoved down our throat as we are cooking or walking around.

About the The jihad thing I did translate that years ago and it does NOT forgot the word NOT
mean to kill everyone.
Besides there are I don’t know how many Muslims if it was true we’d all be dead by now.

it’s just that some Countries, religuois groups and people have there bad seeds just like us.

Catholisim was spread in a evil way, Christianity erm can we say the loonies who kill abortion clinic Drs?? we all have our bad apples and so do some Muslims

I guess we must remember the old saying you can’t judge a book by it’s cover.

 

[tawheedah]

Yes. This is the way it is supposed to be understood. Sadly, the radicals have perverted the interpretation.

So true… and sadly this is the definition that the majority of non-Muslims believe, especially those in positions of power with influence… Ya Allah…

 

[Contarini]

Yes. This is the way it is supposed to be understood. Sadly, the radicals have perverted the interpretation.

This is the same mistake that the anti-Islamic folks are making. It’s up to Muslims to make statements about how jihad “should” be understood. I am encouraged that many Muslims are defining it so as to exclude holy war, but historically jihad was understood to include a duty of making war on non-Muslim nations. There is simply no way around this. That doesn’t mean that Muslims can’t choose to emphasize the “greater jihad” and redefine the “lesser jihad” so as to allow for a permanent peace with non-Muslim nations. But traditional Islamic law did not as a rule allow for such a permanent peace in principle (though the temporary truces could last for centuries).

Edwin

 

[Aprilbaby]

hey Edwin I had ran into a video and some info on this but I of course didn’t save it. It touched on this and other interesting points if I can manage somehow to find it I’ll post it.

 

[tawheedah]

Yes it’s up to Muslims to try to have the true meanings understood, but let’s be honest. Some people are ignorant and believe what they want no matter how much you show them otherwise.

There are two types of Jihad.
(1) The greater (akbar) Jihad - This is preserving ones-self from sin and disbelief.
(2) The lesser (asghar) Jihad - This is going to war to defend Islam, people, property or occupation of an Muslim or Islamic country.

The prophet Muhammad used to walk by this man’s house every day and the man would throw trash at him. The prophet Muhammad sallalahu allaihi wasalaam would just keep walking. One day the prophet walked past the house and the man wasn’t there to throw trash at him. The prophet went to the man’s house to inquire about his health since he wasn’t out throwing trash at him, turns out the man was sick. He was so moved by what the prophet Muhammad did that he converted to Islam on the spot.

The greatest Dawah is to be an example of what a Muslim really is.

 

[Mickey]

This is the same mistake that the anti-Islamic folks are making. It’s up to Muslims to make statements about how jihad “should” be understood. I am encouraged that many Muslims are defining it so as to exclude holy war, but historically jihad was understood to include a duty of making war on non-Muslim nations. There is simply no way around this. That doesn’t mean that Muslims can’t choose to emphasize the “greater jihad” and redefine the “lesser jihad” so as to allow for a permanent peace with non-Muslim nations. But traditional Islamic law did not as a rule allow for such a permanent peace in principle (though the temporary truces could last for centuries).

Edwin

I did not know this Edwin–but then I am largely ignorant of Islamic teaching. Thank you for the info.

 

[dessert]

So true… and sadly this is the definition that the majority of non-Muslims believe, especially those in positions of power with influence… Ya Allah…

In the wiki I saw about 99% in Pakistan are muslin how much % is peaceful muslin?

dessert

 

[Booklover]

Yes it’s up to Muslims to try to have the true meanings understood, but let’s be honest. Some people are ignorant and believe what they want no matter how much you show them otherwise.

There are two types of Jihad.
(1) The greater (akbar) Jihad - This is preserving ones-self from sin and disbelief.
(2) The lesser (asghar) Jihad - This is going to war to defend Islam, people, property or occupation of an Muslim or Islamic country.

The prophet Muhammad used to walk by this man’s house every day and the man would throw trash at him. The prophet Muhammad sallalahu allaihi wasalaam would just keep walking. One day the prophet walked past the house and the man wasn’t there to throw trash at him. The prophet went to the man’s house to inquire about his health since he wasn’t out throwing trash at him, turns out the man was sick. He was so moved by what the prophet Muhammad did that he converted to Islam on the spot.

The greatest Dawah is to be an example of what a Muslim really is.

So now it’s a man that supposedly threw garbage at Muhammad… I’ve heard the same story told about a Jewish lady! That is one of the favorite fairytales that Muslims love to tell about their prophet! I don’t know how many Muslims have used that story to try to prove how nice Muhammad was!

If Muhammad was really as that story tells, how do you rationalize the fact that he had people killed for simply writing satyric poems about him?

By the way, I find what you have listed as your “location” extremely offensive!

Vickie

 

[Aprilbaby]

So now it’s a man that supposedly threw garbage at Muhammad… I’ve heard the same story told about a Jewish lady! That is one of the favorite fairytales that Muslims love to tell about their false prophet! I don’t know how many Muslims have used that story to try to prove how nice Muhammad was!

If Muhammad was really as that story tells, how do you rationalize the fact that he had people killed for simply writing satyric poems about him?

By the way, I find what you have listed as your “location” extremely offensive!

Vickie

She’s a Muslim in America it doesn’t say death to us in America. Why be very mad?

Besides in the forum rules I thought we weren’t ALLOWED to belittle others faiths???

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=145207

I would hate if someone told me Jesus or God were fakes…food for thought

 

[tawheedah]

So now it’s a man that supposedly threw garbage at Muhammad… I’ve heard the same story told about a Jewish lady! That is one of the favorite fairytales that Muslims love to tell about their false prophet! I don’t know how many Muslims have used that story to try to prove how nice Muhammad was!

If Muhammad was really as that story tells, how do you rationalize the fact that he had people killed for simply writing satyric poems about him?

By the way, I find what you have listed as your “location” extremely offensive!

Vickie

I find it extremely offensive that you called my beloved prophet Muhammad sallalahu allahi wasalaam a FALSE prophet, but as you have the freedom to express yourself in the United States of America, SO DO I.

Lighten up. It’s not even a real place, it’s wherever I am. Islam is in my heart. I live in the Northeast by the way. I also have created terms- Dunyadelphia, MuslimLand, etc… its my perrogative, it’s called creativity. Why is it offensive to you, because it has the word “Islam” so close with America? Well I am an American and I am allowed to express myself, am I not?

 

[Booklover]

I find it extremely offensive that you called my beloved prophet Muhammad sallalahu allahi wasalaam a FALSE prophet, but as you have the freedom to express yourself in the United States of America, SO DO I.

Yes, you’re lucky to be living in America where we have freedom of speech. I also want to keep it that way. Non-Muslims in Muslim countries do not have that privilege! Let’s face it, if Muslims had their way, they’d be the only ones with that right.

Lighten up. It’s not even a real place, it’s wherever I am. Islam is in my heart. I live in the Northeast by the way. I also have created terms- Dunyadelphia, MuslimLand, etc… its my perrogative, it’s called creativity. Why is it offensive to you, because it has the word “Islam” so close with America? Well I am an American and I am allowed to express myself, am I not?

Muslims always avail themselves of the freedoms that they deny to others! It may be your “creativity” as you call, but it’s sure your hope that America will one day be Islamerica! GOD FORBID!

Vickie