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Damascus
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Oh boy. Really annoy? Look out for some more effigys!
I think there is an effigy-r-us by now.
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I think there is an effigy-r-us by now.
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exoflare
Guest
Who needs Robert Spencer? Again, I encourage those who have time to take a look at the Quran (a “clear and straightforward guide for all times”) themselves. Follow this link and enjoy.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
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Godefridus
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It’s important to remember that peaceful Christians have a similar struggle as that of peaceful Muslims. We have a Scripture that, taken in a certain way, could be used to advocate God-ordered violence. Even St. Augustine was repulsed by this; hence why St. Ambrose’s spiritual reading of the Old Testament attracted him so.
Peaceful Islam, like patristic exegesis, spiritualizes somewhat the violent aspects of the texts. Jihad is spiritual struggle; not literal holy war.
Of course, there’s also the problem of dissenters who “spiritualize” doctrines into oblivion. But Christian spiritualization never completely loses sight of the literal sense of scripture (the first of the four-fold senses), though it does place that literal sense in context in order to ferret out the intent of the author.
Peaceful Islam, like patristic exegesis, spiritualizes somewhat the violent aspects of the texts. Jihad is spiritual struggle; not literal holy war.
Of course, there’s also the problem of dissenters who “spiritualize” doctrines into oblivion. But Christian spiritualization never completely loses sight of the literal sense of scripture (the first of the four-fold senses), though it does place that literal sense in context in order to ferret out the intent of the author.
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Contarini
Guest
All the more reason–if we are so immoral or lazy as to need one–to be careful with our generalizations. I hope I would have the courage to die for the truth. I do not want to die for shooting my mouth off about something I know nothing about.Yes, deadly it the right word. If anyone doesn’t walk on eggshells regarding Islam, their lives are threatened.
The Pope’s approach is the one we should be following–ask the tough questions, but do it in a way that invites Muslims to dialogue rather than simply writing them off.
Of course, it isn’t doing him much good–they’re still going crazy. But making Muslims happy isn’t the point. Being faithful to the truth is.
Edwin
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Contarini
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Of course you’ve made your point clearly. It’s just a bad one. You know quite well how silly fundamentalist appeals to “just open your Bible” are. Isn’t it likely that “just open your Qur’an” is just as silly? Both the Bible and the Qur’an, for all their differences, are extremely complex books with long and rich histories of interpretation. It makes no sense to dismiss as ignorant or dishonest people who take a different interpretation than the one that jumps out at you. After all, these moderate Muslims are the ones who study and meditate on the Qur’an. Why are you so sure that you can interpret it better than they can? That seems extremely arrogant to me. I know I hate it when non-Christians treat the Bible that way. Doesn’t the Golden Rule require us to treat Muslims the way we’d want non-Christians to treat us?
Edwin
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
I agree that most Muslims who don’t actively promote or participate in violence do not understand their religion. ‘Cafetaria Muslims’ is as good a term as any.
Here is my reasoning:
Now, who is right? The jihadists or those who claim Islam is the religion of peace? Those Muslims who use violence or those who sit and home and do nothing more than pray silently for the destruction of Umrika and Israel? Can they both be correct? No. You cannot have a half-poisoned well.
Here is my reasoning:
- Islam promotes violence / persecution against disbelievers. This is irrefutable from the Quran and hadiths and sira. Anyone reading the life of Muhammad and who understands his teachings can see that. This is undeniable. The so-called ‘peaceful’ or ‘tolerant’ verses were ABROGATED by later verses, including the infamous SURAH OF THE SWORD. This is not called the surah of the sword for nothing - it is not called the surah of the olive branch, or surah of the turn the other cheek, or surah of peaceful proselytizing, or surah of live and let live. It is called the surah of the sword.
- If 1. is correct, then anyone not persecuting / fighting / killing disbelievers (i.e. qataloo al-kufar) cannot be following Muhammad’s teachings.
Now, who is right? The jihadists or those who claim Islam is the religion of peace? Those Muslims who use violence or those who sit and home and do nothing more than pray silently for the destruction of Umrika and Israel? Can they both be correct? No. You cannot have a half-poisoned well.
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whatevergirl
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I have never heard that, and I personally know Muslims, and have met some online who wouldn’t subscribe to that way of thinking. I think that there are extremeists in any faith.
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Damascus
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You got that so right!
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jonfan
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Hi Sailboat,
I don’t think all Muslims pratice terror for conversion purposes. I have engaged in a dialouge with Muslims on other forums and they condoned those actions. What turns my head though is seeing threads where they are “praying” for the destruction of Isreal. I just don’t get how that could serve God. For Instance I am not a fan of the Iranian Government but I would not pray to Jesus for the destruction of Iranian people.
God bless,
Jonfan
I don’t think all Muslims pratice terror for conversion purposes. I have engaged in a dialouge with Muslims on other forums and they condoned those actions. What turns my head though is seeing threads where they are “praying” for the destruction of Isreal. I just don’t get how that could serve God. For Instance I am not a fan of the Iranian Government but I would not pray to Jesus for the destruction of Iranian people.
God bless,
Jonfan
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cocot
Guest
If Islam is not violent and has been hijacked by a few misguided groups such as Osama, then where are the protests by other Mohammedans condemming Osama and the rest and burning them in effigy?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
You mean like on 9/11? You don’t need to say it, your actions have convinced us.
I do not know huge numbers of Muslims, but I know some. The Muslims I know are very worldly; drink liquor, don’t pray to Mecca five times a day or however many times they’re supposed to; don’t make pilgrimages to Mecca and, basically don’t do much of anything their religion teaches. They are quite well to do and were born in Muslim countries. when they go there, there are places where they can drink and do whatever they want to do. I have a feeling there are a LOT of Cafeteria Muslims despite the fact that I don’t know very many Muslims of any sort. Islamic states will never allow real polling or studies on the subject, but they don’t need to. The thing that tells me there are huge numbers of lukewarm and unbelieving Muslims is the fact that their clerics impose political pressure to keep them nominally Muslim by forbidding other religions and kill people who convert from Islam. Any religion that has had to keep its people nominally faithful by force and make virtually all its conversions by force for over a thousand years cannot possibly have much voluntary appeal. That’s particularly true when “immorality” is winked at so widely. I genuinely believe that if Islamic countries allowed real religious freedom, Islam would go the way of Baal worship within a century. Their leaders know it too, and that’s why they oppress other religions.
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Contarini
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But Islam is quite obviously not such a religion.
It is equally ignorant to claim that Islam has not spread by the sword or that its conversions have been “virtually all” by force. Indeed, Islam has generally used force to establish itself as the dominant religion (though it has often become dominant through peaceful means as well). People then convert both because they find Islam attractive and because there are great worldly advantages to doing so.
Why not actually inform yourself and make accurate statements? You don’t have to fall into one extreme or the other, you know. The truth is really quite nice if you just get used to it.
I don’t see Muslims in Europe or the U.S. converting in droves. The reverse is happening. Many lukewarm or disgruntled Christians are converting to Islam. A cousin of mine is among them. Your thesis simply doesn’t hold up to the facts, much as I wish it did.
Edwin
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cocot
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Yes, the advantage being, not persecuted for being a non-muslim and second class citizen as a Dhimmi and not having to pay the Jizya tax.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Speaking of the attractiveness of Islam and how ‘disgruntled Christians’ convert to Islam - how many Americans convert to Islam each year? I have heard it’s only about 30,000 - mostly comprised of black convicts (imams are highly active in jails and there is a black Islam protection gang mentality) and women who marry Muslims. I also heard that about 75% of all converts to Islam apostate within 5 years.
So much for the ‘attractiveness of Islam’.
So much for the ‘attractiveness of Islam’.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Forcible conversioin to Islam is a “truth” I would just as soon not get used to. If Islamic states had true religious freedom, I would find your argument worth examining. I’m sorry, but saying there are a few people who convert to Islam voluntarily in a country where people can convert freely does not loom large against, say, the savagery of Islam against the very reluctant “potential converts” of southern Sudan, as just one of many examples. As soon as Islam stops enforcing itself upon people by violence and allows proselytizing by other religions, I guess we can make the critical comparisons, can’t we? Until then, I find it reasonable to believe Islam’s use of force has a purpose.
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exoflare
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Yeah, except that the Quran declares itself to be a “clear” revelation to those who read it, and easy to understand.
Seems to me the Quran is supposed to speak for itself.
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rbarcia
Guest
When you deal with books that claim to be Holy such as the Quaran and the Book of Mormons, you are trusting in that the revelation recieved by one man (Muhammed, Joseph Smith) is a true revelation.
If just 10 people today were picked who were from the same place, born around the same time, spoke the same language, and made about the same amount of money, and were asked to write on just one controversial subject, they would have trouble agreeing with each other. But the Bible stands alone. It was written over a period of 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings, shepherds or historians. They were from three different continents, and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet they wrote with agreement and harmony. They wrote in dungeons, in temples, on beaches, and on hillsides, during peacetime and during war. Yet their words sound like they came from the same source. So even though 10 people today couldn’t write on one controversial subject and agree, God picked 40 different people to write the Bible—and it stands the test of time.
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2 Corinthians 11:3
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
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The Bible speaks for itself. Its prophecies on Israel’s return, Jesus Christ( the Son of God and the Messiah), and many, many accuratley fulfilled prophecies are a testimony to it as well.
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Ezekiel 13
3Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
6They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
7Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
8Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
9And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
10Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
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cathgal
Guest
I don’t care how each Muslims interpret the Koran. All I know is there are the ignorance, indifference, and devout and they each practice however they see fit.
I never said I interpret better than they.
You cannot compare the Bible the same as the Koran. Both may be hard to understand but there are profound differences concerning love and hate in both books. In the New Test., you wouldn’t find any verses that jump out at you condoning hate or violence. Not so w/ the Koran. There are so many profound verses condoning hate and violence toward infidels. Do you deny it? Are you gonna say it takes a genius to figure this out? Not only is it taught in the Koran, but the world has seen how some Muslims practice it. Their actions reinforce the violence taught in the Koran.
Will you say you’re more Islam they those who practice violence? And who are you to say you’re more or less. You don’t know the Koran well. It is so plain as day and night one doesn’t need to wear a microscopic glass to discern it. Action of violent Muslims speak louder than words.
There is no way you can exterminate violence in your religion 'less the religion is exterminated or completely change the Koran.
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Contarini
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Then how do you know that they are “cafeteria Muslims”? And how on earth do you know that all devout Muslims advocate violence? How many Muslims do you know personally?
The second clause contradicts the first, since the only point on which I compared them was that they were both hard to understand. Obviously I was not saying that they are the same in every respect!
The Book of Revelation? The terrifying parables of eternal punishment toward the end of Matthew? Paul’s curses on Hymenaeus and Alexander and his language about delivering people to Satan?
However, the more obvious point is that the Bible does not only include the New Testament! The fact that you limit your response to the NT proves that your position has no merit whatever. You tacitly grant my point by not even trying to claim that the OT has no such passages.
Since I’m not a Muslim at all (obviously), I’m not more “Islam” than anyone (except in the true sense of the word–obviously I think that the Christian faith is true submission to God and violent Muslims are not actually submitting to God!).
I have not claimed that violent Muslims are “not really Muslims.” I think the Pope’s brave attempt to open a discussion on the role of violence in Islam and its relationship to Islamic views of God’s nature is to be commended and imitated. Unfortunately most of the Catholics on this board show little interest in doing so. The Pope’s exhortations to reason seem to fall on deaf ears. Certainly your post shows little enough rationality.
Edwin
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Contarini
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