Pectoral Cross of Pope Francis

  • Thread starter Thread starter R_C
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
mercytruth said:
Hypothetically speaking of course…and way, way out there of course…(and I do not expect an answer to this very hypothetical question.)

Would Pope Francis have the authority to move the chair of Peter to Jerusalem, and also in effect bring to a close the temporal sovereignty of the Vatican City State? At the same time, Pope Emeritus Benedict, or the President of the Bishop’s Conference would become the Archbishop of Rome proper, or of Italy proper?
Click to expand...
All of it is possible. I won’t comment on the likelihood of any of it but I will say this:

Why anyone would abrogate the Treaty of the Lateran of 1929 is beyond me. Or why anyone would move the Chair of Peter to a non-Petrine See is equally beyond me. So, too, why, after some 2000 years, would someone all of a sudden decide that Rome is an Archdiocese? (NB: Although it is a Metropolitan See in its own right, Rome has never been an “Archdiocese” not is its bishop titled “Archbishop” … he is simply Bishop of Rome.). BTW, irrespective of the modern invention of an Italian Bishops Coference, the Bishop of Rome is, ex-officio, Primate of Italy.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
Thank you. Would all that not change if, as the poster whose post I was responding to, the Pope moved the See to Jerusalem? :o
Click to expand...
There is already a See of Jerusalem. The Pope cannot take the See of Jerusalem. The Pope has lived in different places throughout history but, he is always Bishop of Rome. St Peter is the Rock. St Peter chose Rome. The Bishop of Rome is the successor of St Peter who happens to have an affectionate name, Pope (Papa). 🙂
 
Kevin812 said:
No where in my post am I “telling” His Holiness what He should be doing.

I would recommend a wiki search on ‘straw man’ fallacy.
Click to expand...
If you think the cross lacks Papal dignity, then it inescapably follows that you think he should ditch it for something grander and more ‘dignified’. You are telling us that hou want him to stop wearing that cross. In what parallel universe does that mean you are not at least telling US what he should do?
 
LilyM said:
If you think the cross lacks Papal dignity, then it inescapably follows that you think he should ditch it for something grander and more ‘dignified’. You are telling us that hou want him to stop wearing that cross. In what parallel universe does that mean you are not at least telling US what he should do?
Click to expand...
No where did I tell HH that He could or could not wear what He wants. Putting your words in my mouth do not make them mine.
 
Kevin812 said:
No where did I tell HH that He could or could not wear what He wants. Putting your words in my mouth do not make them mine.
Click to expand...
Kevin - please kindly reread my post. I never said that you told HH a single blessed word. I merely said that you were telling us what he ought to do (ie ought not wear) which is true.
 
I tend to agree with some on this thread. All these lack of trappings for office, emphasis on “brother bishops,” and emphasis on simply “Bishop of Rome” instead of “universal Pope” seemingly points to primus inter pares, a first among equals. The Pope is not the first among his equal bishops - far from it - but the infallible head of the Universal Church.

I emphasize seemingly. Who knows what’s going through Francis’ mind? But all of these external trends, I feel, points to this type of mindset. That’s all.

I understand his personal humility, totally. It’s absolutely lovely. But the papal vestments, jewelry (such as the pectoral cross), and titles do not emphasize and dignify the man, but the office.
 
The_Scott said:
I tend to agree with some on this thread. All these lack of trappings for office, emphasis on “brother bishops,” and emphasis on simply “Bishop of Rome” instead of “universal Pope” seemingly points to primus inter pares, a first among equals. The Pope is not the first among his equal bishops - far from it - but the infallible head of the Universal Church.

I emphasize seemingly. Who knows what’s going through Francis’ mind? But all of these external trends, I feel, points to this type of mindset. That’s all.

I understand his personal humility, totally. It’s absolutely lovely. But the papal vestments, jewelry (such as the pectoral cross), and titles do not emphasize and dignify the man, but the office.
Click to expand...
Also, let me say that, perhaps, Francis is uncomfortable with this abrupt change, and wants to make a steady transition in. After all, he went from a Cardinal who rode the public bus to the leader of the Catholic Church overnight. If that’s not abrupt, I don’t know what is!

Maybe he’s carefully testing the water, instead of jumping straight in.
 
The_Scott said:
I tend to agree with some on this thread. All these lack of trappings for office, emphasis on “brother bishops,” and emphasis on simply “Bishop of Rome” instead of “universal Pope” seemingly points to primus inter pares, a first among equals. The Pope is not the first among his equal bishops - far from it - but the infallible head of the Universal Church.

I emphasize seemingly. Who knows what’s going through Francis’ mind? But all of these external trends, I feel, points to this type of mindset. That’s all.

I understand his personal humility, totally. It’s absolutely lovely. But the papal vestments, jewelry (such as the pectoral cross), and titles do not emphasize and dignify the man, but the office.
Click to expand...
I think to an extent the outward trappings reflect on both the man and the office. Which is why no-one since Paul VI has, for example, used the tiara or the sedia gestatoria.

I also think in this day and age when the average person is materially more well off than ever before, they are less impressed, or at least not impressed in the same way, as previous generations were by display. A canny leader knows this. Take the royal wedding a few years back in England - while it was sumptuous, there seemed to be a lot less of the public fanfare, golden carriages and tinsel and froth than we saw with the wedding of Charles and Diana or Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson.

Besides which, it is the office which gives the dignity and significance to the trappings and not the other way around. And accordingly the dignity of the office remains intact even without them.
 
For one who is the Servant of the Servants of God, the absence of the trappings of office is, if anything, entirely appropriate. He is of course the Vicar of Jesus Christ and humility is also in keeping the example of Christ himself.

There’s also a wonderful photo circulating (below) which illustrates the humility of Pope Francis and which is reminiscent of Christ washing his disciples feet at the last Supper (and may actually have been taken at a Holy Thursday liturgy). This image makes it easy for me to see why the cardinal-electors (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit) chose this man.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
R_C said:
Was anyone intrigued by the pectoral cross of Pope Francis?

Some news sources revealed it is the same pectoral cross he has always worn as a bishop.

I was lucky enough to find a couple of close-zoom frames in a video about this morning’s visit to pay homage to Our Lady.

The structure is very simple and sober. We see the Good Shepherd carrying on His shoulders the lost sheep. Behind him is the flock. On top, the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove.

On the very top is some heavenly figure, but I can’t quite tell who it may be.
Click to expand...
The cross is very beautiful in its simplicity. It makes me so happy to know our Pope Francis wears this! The sheep on the shoulders of the Good Shepherd is lost no longer. This sheep now walks with the strength of the Shepherd’s legs. Shouldn’t we call this sheep the Found sheep?
 
We don’t know were Pope Francis’ cross comes from, what it means to him. It may be difficult for many to understand that the value of something, sometimes comes from it’s history. He may not want to part with it. I have a scapular medal that I always wear. Even when I wear other pieces, I still wear it . It may not look dignified, but it is my personal simple reminder of Our Lady and it has accompanied me now for years. I can’t think of taking it off, if I don’t have to. I think that humility entails not making assumptions beyond our knowledge. Also, as far as I know, the Pope is not obligated to wear a particular cross. I would more focus on his actions. They, in my opinion, have been symbolic. Try to see what Spirit of God may be saying through our Pope. If you are familiar with the Old Testament Prophets, you will recognize that some prophesied through actions. Actions that may not have been clearly understood, but were symbolic of God’s will for the people of Israel.
I’m sorry if this was too long, but I felt I had to share.
 
Pope St Gregory the Great said, “I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of Antichrist; for as that Wicked One wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would be called sole bishop exalteth himself above others…You know it, my brother; hath not the venerable Council of Chalcedon conferred the honorary title of ‘universal’ upon the bishops of this Apostolic See [Rome], whereof I am, by God’s will, the servant? And yet none of us hath permitted this title to be given to him; none hath assumed this bold title, lest by assuming a special distinction in the dignity of the episcopate, we should seem to refuse it to all the brethren.”
 
Zekariya said:
Pope St Gregory the Great said …]
Click to expand...
Good point. I think this Pope will remind us why Christ called Himself “son of man”.

Sure, he is far more than a “primus inter pares”. But perhaps he can do things in such way as to not make others feel like they are all peers but that all the while they don’t account for much.
“It shall not be thus amongst you, but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your servant; and he that will be first among you, shall be your servant. Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Click to expand...
I’d like to bring this thread to your attention, as well.
 
Am I the only one who thinks that the guy to our Holy Father’s left in the picture in post 54 looks like our Lord?:eek:
 
R_C said:
Good point. I think this Pope will remind us why Christ called Himself “son of man”.

Sure, he is far more than a “primus inter pares”. But perhaps he can do things in such way as to not make others feel like they are all peers but that all the while they don’t account for much.

I’d like to bring this thread to your attention, as well.
Click to expand...
I agree! 👍 The Bishop of Rome is the Vicar of Christ and the Shepherd of the Church. We lovingly call him Papa (Pope). He presides in charity. He is the servant of the servants of God. In St Cyril of Alexandria’s letters, he always calls the bishop of Rome, “father” and the bishop of Rome always responds calling St Cyril, “brother”. 🙂

In the Byzantine Church, the Trinity is seen as a monarchy with the Father as the head while all Persons are in communion with each other. Anyone interested in reading further about this: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1176
 
LilyM said:
I think to an extent the outward trappings reflect on both the man and the office. Which is why no-one since Paul VI has, for example, used the tiara or the sedia gestatoria.

-SNIP-

Besides which, it is the office which gives the dignity and significance to the trappings and not the other way around. And accordingly the dignity of the office remains intact even without them.
Click to expand...
^^^This! 👍

Added…
Luigi_Daniele said:
Am I the only one who thinks that the guy to our Holy Father’s left in the picture in post 54 looks like our Lord?:eek:
Click to expand...
Whoa, Luigi-- that IS interesting… almost shocking! :eek:

~Spoken4
 
The_Scott said:
I tend to agree with some on this thread. All these lack of trappings for office, emphasis on “brother bishops,” and emphasis on simply “Bishop of Rome” instead of “universal Pope” seemingly points to primus inter pares, a first among equals. The Pope is not the first among his equal bishops - far from it - but the infallible head of the Universal Church.

I emphasize seemingly. Who knows what’s going through Francis’ mind? But all of these external trends, I feel, points to this type of mindset. That’s all.

I understand his personal humility, totally. It’s absolutely lovely. But the papal vestments, jewelry (such as the pectoral cross), and titles do not emphasize and dignify the man, but the office.
Click to expand...
I think we are honestly reading too much in to this.

The phrase “Bishop of Rome” is what the Pope was known as and referred to by Church fathers anyway. What is the big deal in him using this ancient phrase? Also, even Lumen Gentium uses the phrase “Bishop of Rome” and then also the word “Roman Pontiff”. Surely, this use of the word “Rome” or “Roman” does not in anyway make it seem like its geographically confined. So why are we now looking in to this as if its such a big deal?

As for trappings, maybe he thought it was not needed. After all, nothing in Lumen Gentium or any other doctrine states that the Pope has to wear Trappings. It is not part of doctrine either. The only place it could be in would be Canon law but the Pope is ABOVE canon law. So he can either wear his trappings or decided to wear something else if he wanted to.

That being said, I would agree that the main reason why we have this confusion is because Pope Francis decided to not follow tradition. One function of tradition is to indeed prevent such confusion. When a person violates it, one does cause confusion.

One can only hope that Pope Francis gained more in discarding the tradition than what he caused in terms of confusion as a result. Only God knows the actual answer to that.

In the meantime, I think it is our duty to correct these misunderstood notions that Pope Francis is about to think of himself as a first among equals. That he cannot do. Why? Because it is part of Church doctrine that he is more than that and is clearly stated in Lumen Gentium of Vatican II. While the Pope is above Canon Law, he is certainly below Doctrine from an ecumenical council.

So since we as Catholics believe that the Pope cannot err, we can correct (with 100% certainty) those who understand this as the Pope starting to make the Papacy in to a “first among equals” concept. Even if Pope Francis truly thinks and wants to do that, he shall fail miserably because the Holy Spirit will not allow it!!!
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
Am I the only one who thinks that the guy to our Holy Father’s left in the picture in post 54 looks like our Lord?:eek:
Click to expand...
Have you seen “Our Lord” :)? He certainly does look like the depictions of Christ but then again, so do many others.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top