Pedophiles, Homosexuals and Ordination

[Abba]

Could a man who, during formation, deliberately hid pedophile tendencies, or indeed any other condition that would have prevented his ordination, be validly ordained? The answer, sad to say, is probably yes, for the intention required at the moment of ordination is the intention to receive the priesthood. Has this ever happened? Almost certainly yes.

In some concrete cases a hidden tendency might produce a spiritual or psychological condition so that the person becomes incapable of really intending what the Church desires when it gives priesthood. This would invalidate the sacrament but is extremely hard to prove. The Church has a special canonical process for judging the question of invalidity of sacred orders, but it is relatively rarely used.

This is tough. If the sacrament is invalid but, the person goes around taking confession and giving Mass - what of the validity of those sacraments? What is this canonical process that is rarely used?

Is the Church responsible? There is moral responsibility if any means of revealing this tendency was culpably neglected before ordination, or if it failed to act immediately once the problem became manifest. The Church would not be morally responsible if an astute man was able to overcome these preventive controls which by their very nature are fallible and subject to manipulation.

Legal responsibility depends on each country’s legal system. Most countries have a concept of civil responsibility in which the Church, just as any juridical person, might be required to pay civil compensation even if not morally responsible for an action of one of its agents.

What can be done? I believe that in the last few years the U.S. bishops have put in place a series of vetting measures in seminaries and other institutions in order to assure that those who should never be ordained, effectively don’t reach ordination.

Hmmm.

This, alongside an increase in the quality of the disciplinary and spiritual life in seminaries, makes for a very uncomfortable environment for anyone attempting to get through six years of formation without a sincere motivation.

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur237.htm

Good.

Is the Church authority drowning in a glass of water with this whole pedophile and homosexual problem in the ranks of priests? Maybe it is high time to come down hard and make the priesthood unappealing for sexual predators.

What do you (my reader if I have any, ) think about the following as a possible solution:

1. All priests upon ordination become citizens of the Vatican City State.
2. Crimes of pedophilia committed by priests will be handled by the Vatican court. Countries would have to be signatory to a convention type of document.
3. Change canon law to note that if a priest is found guilty of hurting children the sentence if life in a prison in Italy.

This could serve as a deterrence. Defrocking is not enough. If people never cared for the priesthood in the first place and only used it to gain access to vulnerable children or to be around males etc… they probably couldn’t care less about the defrocking.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

This is tough. If the sacrament is invalid but, the person goes around taking confession and giving Mass - what of the validity of those sacraments? What is this canonical process that is rarely used?

Hmmm.

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur237.htm

Good.

Is the Church authority drowning in a glass of water with this whole pedophile and homosexual problem in the ranks of priests? Maybe it is high time to come down hard and make the priesthood unappealing for sexual predators.

What do you (my reader if I have any, ) think about the following as a possible solution:

1. All priests upon ordination become citizens of the Vatican City State.
2. Crimes of pedophilia committed by priests will be handled by the Vatican court. Countries would have to be signatory to a convention type of document.
3. Change canon law to note that if a priest is found guilty of hurting children the sentence if life in a prison in Italy.

This could serve as a deterrence. Defrocking is not enough. If people never cared for the priesthood in the first place and only used it to gain access to vulnerable children or to be around males etc… they probably couldn’t care less about the defrocking.

Are you aware of the screening process in place today required for a man to enter the seminary and begin formation for the priesthood?

 

[Abba]

Are you aware of the screening process in place today required for a man to enter the seminary and begin formation for the priesthood?

No. Tell me.

 

[agnes_therese]

Is the Church authority drowning in a glass of water with this whole pedophile and homosexual problem in the ranks of priests? Maybe it is high time to come down hard and make the priesthood unappealing for sexual predators?

Are you really calling all homosexuals “problems” and “predators?”

 

[Abba]

Are you really calling all homosexuals “problems” and “predators?”

Persons with deep seeded homosexual tendencies ARE a problem in the priesthood and seminaries. It is not a rejection of people with homosexual tendencies as persons, I respect them and love them and recognize they have been made just like everyone else in the image of God. It is a fact that the priesthood is not open to them.

Regarding the ‘predators’ yes, I know of people that joined the priesthood to be with males. Not all homosexuals in the priesthood joined as a form of living out their homosexual tendencies, amongst other situations, there have been some who were advised by their families to join the priesthood given their homosexual tendencies and that they are Catholic. The priesthood is not a solution for those destined to live celibate lives due to their homosexual tendencies.

“In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture”” vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

I know people who have homosexual tendencies, are living a celibate life and are happily practicing their Catholic faith - but not in the priesthood. Grannies should not see the priesthood as a solution anymore.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Are you aware of the screening process in place today required for a man to enter the seminary and begin formation for the priesthood?

Yes there is a screening process…the same process that lets in orthodox traditional priests and then kicks them out to liberal parishes who then label them mentally unstable and unfit for priesthood.

Anyone can pass that examination BTW its not hard.

 

[phil19034]

What do you (my reader if I have any, ) think about the following as a possible solution:

1. All priests upon ordination become citizens of the Vatican City State.

1. Crimes of pedophilia committed by priests will be handled by the Vatican court. Countries would have to be signatory to a convention type of document.

1. Change canon law to note that if a priest is found guilty of hurting children the sentence if life in a prison in Italy.

I don’t see this as a viable solution for several reasons.

1. people will view it as the Vatican trying to protect the priests from the local law. When a criminal breaks local laws, the local jurisdiction usually want to punish the criminal using their laws so the local victim feels a sense of justice.
2. Every time an innocent priest is found innocent, the court of public opinion will say "there is the Vatican protecting another pedophile.
3. Italy is not going to want to be responsible for worldwide pedophile priests.

Additionally, I don’t think this will be as much of an issue moving forward for several reasons:

1. Most of pedophile priests are older, born before the sexual revolution
2. Back in those days, being gay was 100% taboo and man being single was very suspect. So it was easy for a gay man to hide in the priesthood. Many of these gay, pedophile priests joined the priesthood to hide from shaming their family for being gay. Being a priest would protect them all the questions regarding why they were staying single.
3. Today, gay men do not have the same social pressure to stay in the closet, so they have less reason to hide. Also, it’s not considered countercultural for a man not to marry either anymore. So the attraction of the priesthood for gay men, is not what it once was. And knowing Church teaching, it really isn’t a place that most gay men would want go if they plan on committing sexual sin.

 

[808Catholic]

Yes there is a screening process…the same process that lets in orthodox traditional priests and then kicks them out to liberal parishes who then label them mentally unstable and unfit for priesthood.

Anyone can pass that examination BTW its not hard.

@eightydeuce82
I wouldn’t be so quick to claim passing the seminary entrance screening process is “not hard.” I haven’t applied for seminary but know of someone who has; it’s not as easy as I thought and was surprised how rigorous the interview process is. And that’s only a PORTION of the screening process! Without going into detail, let’s just say if the same screening process were applied to parishioners, we’d need a LOT less pews in churches today!

While I applaud the efforts of the Catholic Church to screen out those who may have tendencies contrary to church doctrine, I’d also like to point out these are only perceived tendencies not actual instances. Sort of like the priest telling us in the confessional, it’s not a sin if you haven’t committed it yet! We do have homosexual priests in the church today. As long as they are celibate (same for their heterosexual clergy brethren), there’s no issue. Not sure if anyone, even the best psychiatrists in the world, can claim someone has pedophilia without the person actually acting on that disorder. Then, it opens a can of worms: what about the priest who imbibes too much, tells off color jokes, indulges in too many desserts, etc. The fact is we are ALL sinners and the church is made up of and led by sinners. How we live our lives at the foot of the cross is more important than rooting out sinners we don’t like. Keep your focus on God. He will always lead you right.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

As noted, the “Vatican citizenship” idea would just play into the image of the Church shielding offenders and sweeping things under the rug and away from the reach of proper local authority. There is still much resentment around here about Cardinal Law’s “escape” to the Vatican ( which is how it’s see ).

 

[Abba]

Yes there is a screening process…the same process that lets in orthodox traditional priests and then kicks them out to liberal parishes who then label them mentally unstable and unfit for priesthood.

Anyone can pass that examination BTW its not hard.

It saddens me to hear of this. Father Groeschel also mentioned this was going on and that some priests had complained to him. He thought it was absurd and planned to do something about it.

I Googled his name to make sure I was spelling it right and just learned he passed away October 3, 2014. I had made a promise of limited internet use for a year (April to April) and so I missed knowing he passed away. Requiescat In Pace.

It’s too bad this is going on as liberal parishes would benefit greatly from these priests. I guess is too much for them, they are too far away. They need to be brought back slowly.

 

[lax16]

It saddens me to hear of this. Father Groeschel also mentioned this was going on and that some priests had complained to him. He thought it was absurd and planned to do something about it.

I Googled his name to make sure I was spelling it right and just learned he passed away October 3, 2014. I had made a promise of limited internet use for a year (April to April) and so I missed knowing he passed away. Requiescat In Pace.

It’s too bad this is going on as liberal parishes would benefit greatly from these priests. I guess is too much for them, they are too far away. They need to be brought back slowly.

If one is interested in learning more about this, I recommend the book Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church. It is very well researched and informative. And shocking.

 

[Abba]

New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law. By John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, Thomas Joseph Green

Declaration of Invalidity

A valid ordination (c.1024) always remains a valid ordination when conferred by the competent minister through the imposition of hands and the consecratory prayer (c. 1009, § 2). Canon 290, I” state the exception. The ordination can be declared invalid as a result of judicial procedure resulting in a decision, or by an administrative decree, The current practice of the Holy See has been to discourage petitions of this kind, and there fore it has not admitted this as a practical possibility in recent years. Rather, the Holy See encourages the third mode (c. 290, 3”) for the loss of the clerical state (petition for a return to the lay state and dispensation from celibacy).

The 1917 code was explicit in stating that an ordination coerced by grave fear was an invalid sacrament (CIC 214, §1), but this reference is not found in the 1983 code. The candidate must testify, in writing, that he receives orders freely (c. 1036). The other requirements of ordination, including the absence of impediments and irregularities, are of the lawfulness of the sacrament, not validity. In cases of declaring the nullity of ordination, the canonical procedure is canons 1708-1712 must be followed.

In practice, the other two modes of losing the clerical state indicated in canon 290 are the usual means by which the clerical state is lost.

They do not seem to have taken under consideration the problem of people infiltrating or joining for other purposes. The only thing that would have made it invalid prior to 1983 was if the person was coerced by grave fear. This part was eliminated and it is now required that the person states in writing that he if freely joining the priesthood. Well, just because it is in writing does not mean the person is not being coerced.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

No. Tell me.

I do not have the exact process as I am not nor ever been a seminarian. A good friend of mine entered the seminary. He was in his fifties. The process he went through was multiple interviews by both individual priests and panels with multiple priests along with multiple psychiatric evaluations. Essentially what he told me was that anyone with any inclination toward homosexual or deviant behavior was quickly dropped from the seminary. He told me he did not see how anyone could pass with those tendencies.

This is a far cry from the process in the past when the seminaries took any applicant.

As one other poster added, if parishioners went through the same process the pews would be pretty vacant.

I have been through the child safe training in multiple parishes and it pales in comparison. I also am certain that most if not all other mainstream Christian denominations have a much much bigger problem than the Catholic Church.

Maybe you should do some searching on the internet and see just how dangerous it is for our children to attend public schools. By the time they graduate from high school 1 in 10 have been molested.

Facts matter.

 

[pianistclare]

Yes there is a screening process…the same process that lets in orthodox traditional priests and then kicks them out to liberal parishes who then label them mentally unstable and unfit for priesthood.

Anyone can pass that examination BTW its not hard.

Got any data to back up this opinion?
You do a great disservice to the men who are preparing for the priesthood.

 

[JimG]

As I understand it, the screening process in our diocese is quite thorough. Interviews with the director of vocations, the bishop and others, and it is ongoing. In addition to that, seminaries screen applicants and let the diocese know if there are any problems. I know of no group which is more thoroughly screened than seminarians on a continuing basis.

All of this, along with the reform of the seminaries, was a response to sexual abuse problems in the past. Reading the John Jay Report, it would seem that the bulk of sexual abuse by priests is at base a problem from about 40 years ago; it peaked, and then dropped off. The majority of those involved came from particular seminaries in particular ordination years. There were problems with the seminaries, and they were fixed. If our diocese makes use of a seminary, it is a good, orthodox, and reliable seminary.

 

[agnes_therese]

Persons with deep seeded homosexual tendencies ARE a problem in the priesthood and seminaries.

That’s “deep-seated”

It is not a rejection of people with homosexual tendencies as persons, I respect them and love them and recognize they have been made just like everyone else in the image of God.

Right. That’s why you lumped them in with pedophiles as “predators.”

I don’t ever want to see what names you call people you hate.

 

[Abba]

As I understand it, the screening process in our diocese is quite thorough. Interviews with the director of vocations, the bishop and others, and it is ongoing. In addition to that, seminaries screen applicants and let the diocese know if there are any problems. I know of no group which is more thoroughly screened than seminarians on a continuing basis.

All of this, along with the reform of the seminaries, was a response to sexual abuse problems in the past. Reading the John Jay Report, it would seem that the bulk of sexual abuse by priests is at base a problem from about 40 years ago; it peaked, and then dropped off. The majority of those involved came from particular seminaries in particular ordination years. There were problems with the seminaries, and they were fixed. If our diocese makes use of a seminary, it is a good, orthodox, and reliable seminary.

Thank you for the info of the John Jay Report. It’s very informative.

“Almost 70% of the abusive priests were ordained before 1970, after attending pre-Vatican II seminaries or seminaries that had had little time to adapt to the reforms of Vatican II.”

THE NATURE AND SCOPE OF SEXUAL ABUSE OF MINORS
BY CATHOLIC PRIESTS AND DEACONS
IN THE UNITED STATES 195O-2OO2
usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/The-Nature-and-Scope-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Minors-by-Catholic-Priests-and-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf

John Jay Report
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_Report

This thread just brings to mind Pope Leo XIII. I think Satan is behind this attack, he cannot totally hide his tail. Well, his 100 years are up and we are still here.

"They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation

**The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: “I can destroy your Church.”

The gentle voice of Our Lord: “You can? Then go ahead and do so.”

Satan: “To do so, I need more time and more power.”

Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?

Satan: “75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service.”

Our Lord: “You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will.”**



“Saint Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into Hell, Satan and all the other evil spirits, who prowl throughout the world, seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.”

stjosephschurch.net/leoxiii.htm
michaeljournal.org/visionleo.asp

 

[Abba]

That’s “deep-seated”

I don’t ever want to see what names you call people you hate.

Thank you for the correction. Actually, seeded, is not so bad.

Actually, that I know of, I don’t hate anyone. I try to be generous with forgiving, it’s good for the soul. The ‘as we’ from the Our Father has always caught my attention. We ask to be forgiven as we forgive. I try to be generous so Our Lord will be generous with me. I also know that it is good for all when we forgive and I am into it.

Now, I do at times get upset or angry and I have at times said things I have regretted. I just make sure to apologize and make peace before bed time - when I can.

 

[Abba]

@eightydeuce82
As long as they are celibate (same for their heterosexual clergy brethren), there’s no issue… Then, it opens a can of worms: what about the priest who imbibes too much, tells off color jokes, indulges in…

You may not have an issue with it, but the Church forbids it.

The Church does not forbid drinking and if people do it in excess well, that’s not good. Priests need to work out their own salvation that’s part of their journey.

I don’t know what the position of the Church is with people with homosexual tendencies who are already in the priesthood. How does the Church handle this?

“In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture”” vatican.va/roman_curia/co…uzione_en.html

 

[Lucretius]

Right. That’s why you lumped them in with pedophiles as “predators.”

I don’t want to offend anyone, but historically speaking, homosexually was almost always coupled with what we would call pedophilia. I’m of course talking about pederestry.

Of course, a 14 year child of either sex was opened for marriage in many cultures too, so pederestry wouldn’t have necessarily been considered pedophilia.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

St. Peter and St. Paul, pray for us!