Penance and women

[Joannm]

Don’t like the idea of glass panes and windows into reconciliation rooms or confessionals. That just makes me feel like I’m on display to the people outside.

But if you are there during regular confession times it is most likely that the people who will see you are there for confession as well. You see each other standing in line so what’s the difference. Also I don’t think people waiting for confession are really going to be staring are whose in the room as they are hopefully preparing for their own confession. The only time I had someone look in was when I was in there a particularly long time (not my fault but the priest just kept talking). A man just walked past looked through the door window, I guess to see if someone was really in there as sometimes the light doesn’t work.

 

[Joannm]

B
On the other hand, if circumstances call for it and there’s no danger of anything improper, it is not (repeat not) wrong for a priest to hear a woman’s confession in the office.

Here again, we’re dealing with a conflict between what we see in practice and what the Church expects as described in canon law. The law (yes, the 1983 code) still requires that confessions generally be heard in a proper confessional. Naturally, we can all think of several examples where confessions may be heard outside of a confessional—lest we get a whole string of posts saying “what about a hospital visit?” or “what about this-or-that?”

Under normal, everyday circumstances, a confessional with a fixed grille must be available for confession.

I usually always go in the priest’s office since I confess to my spiritual director at the end of a session and it would kind of be silly to walk across the street to the church for him to hear my confession when we already have been talking (and discussing my faults among other things) for an hour.

 

[rhiannonh]

But how do you learn and grow in relationship with God if your confessional is anonymous?

If the priest knows you well then he can spiritually guide you well. Finding the right advice and the right penance. Not just something bog standard but something that really helps you personally grow with God.

Penance isn’t just about punishment as such but helping us learn and because I have my own way of communicating with the parish priest he knows me well enough now to know how to guide in the confessional so its not just perfectionary but real space for help and receive real help and a pennance that also helps rather than just a quick prayer or two. But something that really helps you move forward!

Confession is more than just saying sorry to God. It about learning about ourselves with God.

Our confessions are always ‘face to face’ in that we don’t have boxes. And I have never given it a second thought about being isolated in church as such on both our parts. I have tried before a service but find people come early then and I’m a private person on the whole and luckily last time we hadn’t actually started and he had though foresight to go into the vestry because I either would have mumbled my way through so he wouldn’t have heard a a word or that all would have heard. Yes, I like knowing that that priest knows who I am and even better when he actually knows whats going off for get full advice and help.

 

[YoungTradCath]

There is no doubt that the 1917 code has been abrogated.

But there is tons of stuff from the 1917 Code that is in the 1983 Code. I don’t know if this particular bit is or not.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

But how do you learn and grow in relationship with God if your confessional is anonymous?

If the priest knows you well then he can spiritually guide you well. Finding the right advice and the right penance. Not just something bog standard but something that really helps you personally grow with God.

Penance isn’t just about punishment as such but helping us learn and because I have my own way of communicating with the parish priest he knows me well enough now to know how to guide in the confessional so its not just perfectionary but real space for help and receive real help and a pennance that also helps rather than just a quick prayer or two. But something that really helps you move forward!

Confession is more than just saying sorry to God. It about learning about ourselves with God.

Our confessions are always ‘face to face’ in that we don’t have boxes. And I have never given it a second thought about being isolated in church as such on both our parts. I have tried before a service but find people come early then and I’m a private person on the whole and luckily last time we hadn’t actually started and he had though foresight to go into the vestry because I either would have mumbled my way through so he wouldn’t have heard a a word or that all would have heard. Yes, I like knowing that that priest knows who I am and even better when he actually knows whats going off for get full advice and help.

Confession is about being absolved of our sins. Priests often give a bit of advice during confession, but the Sacrament of Penance/Confession/Reconciliation is not the same as counseling or spiritual direction.

If you want to recieive regular, ongoing counseling from your priest you should make special appointments for that. If you then also receive sacramental confession at the same time, that is fine.

 

[YoungTradCath]

But how do you learn and grow in relationship with God if your confessional is anonymous?

If the priest knows you well then he can spiritually guide you well. Finding the right advice and the right penance. Not just something bog standard but something that really helps you personally grow with God.

Penance isn’t just about punishment as such but helping us learn and because I have my own way of communicating with the parish priest he knows me well enough now to know how to guide in the confessional so its not just perfectionary but real space for help and receive real help and a pennance that also helps rather than just a quick prayer or two. But something that really helps you move forward!

Confession is more than just saying sorry to God. It about learning about ourselves with God.

Our confessions are always ‘face to face’ in that we don’t have boxes. And I have never given it a second thought about being isolated in church as such on both our parts. I have tried before a service but find people come early then and I’m a private person on the whole and luckily last time we hadn’t actually started and he had though foresight to go into the vestry because I either would have mumbled my way through so he wouldn’t have heard a a word or that all would have heard. Yes, I like knowing that that priest knows who I am and even better when he actually knows whats going off for get full advice and help.

Because that isn’t the nature of Confession. Confession is first and foremost the sacrament by which souls are reunited with God, not a psych counseling session. It is the ultimate divine court of mercies, offering the very mercy of God Himself. Confession, in itself, is not personal. Spiritual direction is. There is nothing wrong with spiritual direction, but it is not Confession, and they shouldn’t be confused.

We Catholics generally make a difference between Confession and spiritual direction. Oftentimes, a penitent’s confessor is also his spiritual director (although probably most Catholics don’t have spiritual directors), but not necessarily so. Confession is a very straightforward, to-the-point thing. Whenever we start getting into all this extra gooey stuff, no, there’s nothing wrong with it in itself, but it tends to weaken the outward portrayal of the sacrament and vice versa. Confession is for the sacrament, spiritual direction is for the counseling and personal advice, and they are two different things completely. Although they are related and are in many ways complementary, they are not the same thing, and it seems imprudent to mix them. Think of it from a purely Catholic perspective. If they were to be mixed, so many people would get confused. Confession is the absolute requirement, while spiritual direction is the nice-to-have. Confession deals directly with souls, while spiritual direction is an after the fact thing with not even a tenth of the ultimate importance. Therefore, it is highly imprudent to confuse the two.

The Church absolutely mandates as per Canon Law that confessionals have grates in them. However, it is the option of each penitent as to whether he is going to utilize the grate or not. But they are absolutely required architecturally.

 

[RyanBlack]

Confession is a very straightforward, to-the-point thing. Whenever we start getting into all this extra gooey stuff, no, there’s nothing wrong with it in itself, but it tends to weaken the outward portrayal of the sacrament and vice versa. Confession is for the sacrament, spiritual direction is for the counseling and personal advice, and they are two different things completely. Although they are related and are in many ways complementary, they are not the same thing, and it seems imprudent to mix them. Think of it from a purely Catholic perspective. If they were to be mixed, so many people would get confused. Confession is the absolute requirement, while spiritual direction is the nice-to-have. Confession deals directly with souls, while spiritual direction is an after the fact thing with not even a tenth of the ultimate importance. Therefore, it is highly imprudent to confuse the two.

Really, this is nothing more than your personal opinion. The integration of spiritual counseling/direction with confession is routine in the Eastern tradition, and I can’t recall a single time I’ve been to confession (whether the priest was Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, or Roman Catholic) where some measure of spiritual counseling was not given.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Really, this is nothing more than your personal opinion. The integration of spiritual counseling/direction with confession is routine in the Eastern tradition, and I can’t recall a single time I’ve been to confession (whether the priest was Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, or Roman Catholic) where some measure of spiritual counseling was not given.

me neither…and it has been most helpful coming back. Direction on how to avoid sin…what is a sin…etc. I have no one to go to for spiritiual direction…and our priest is all by himself so make specific appoints for would be selfish and further squeeze his time. And why when I can ask him about things about sin…how to avoid…forgiveness there in the confessional…I’m not long about it.

It is the sacrament of reconciliation…which really is twofold…it’s not just about the HEAVY weight of sin…but it also is about the forgiveness of God…they go hand and hand. I don’t consider that to be owey gooey…it’s something much needed especially in today’s world.

 

[Phemie]

The Church absolutely mandates as per Canon Law that confessionals have grates in them. However, it is the option of each penitent as to whether he is going to utilize the grate or not. But they are absolutely required architecturally.

The grate is mandated by canon law and no priest can be forced to hear confession face-to-face, so it’s only the penitent’s decision if the priest opts to offer the face-to-face option.

 

[TuAutem]

The law (yes, the 1983 code) still requires that confessions generally be heard in a proper confessional… Under normal, everyday circumstances, a confessional with a fixed grille must be available for confession.

Really? I would be thrilled to have references on this, as in my new diocese it has been extremely difficult to even find confession times other than ‘through individual appointment’, and none of the churches I have found that do hear confessions have screens. (Whereas my previous diocese was the polar opposite–all churches had regular confession times and they all offered anonymous confession.)

If I could cite canon law to argue for a return to what I feel are more pastorally appropriate practices in the first place, it could only help my cause…

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Confession is about being absolved of our sins. Priests often give a bit of advice during confession, but the Sacrament of Penance/Confession/Reconciliation is not the same as counseling or spiritual direction.

If you want to recieive regular, ongoing counseling from your priest you should make special appointments for that. If you then also receive sacramental confession at the same time, that is fine.

A note on the anonymity of confession. This is why it’s a good idea to have a regular confessor. I don’t do face-to-face confession (nor does my confessor), and I know my “anonymous” Confessions aren’t actually anonymous. In the brief time I’m in there (Mine are usually 3 minutes or less, 5 if Father has a lot to say) my confessor can give me pretty good solid counsel on my sins. In the end, it’s going to be the graces you receive from Confession that are going to help you out the most to overcome your sins, hence the reason for frequent Confession.

I will note, though, the best counsel I ever received from my confessor was when I returned to the Church and it really was anonymous. Father had never met me before, I had only been to one of his Masses.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Really? I would be thrilled to have references on this, as in my new diocese it has been extremely difficult to even find confession times other than ‘through individual appointment’, and none of the churches I have found that do hear confessions have screens. (Whereas my previous diocese was the polar opposite–all churches had regular confession times and they all offered anonymous confession.)

If I could cite canon law to argue for a return to what I feel are more pastorally appropriate practices in the first place, it could only help my cause…

Our parish doesn’t have the fixed grate…it’s in a room…but it does allow for anonymous confessions.

 

[Phemie]

Really? I would be thrilled to have references on this, as in my new diocese it has been extremely difficult to even find confession times other than ‘through individual appointment’, and none of the churches I have found that do hear confessions have screens. (Whereas my previous diocese was the polar opposite–all churches had regular confession times and they all offered anonymous confession.)

If I could cite canon law to argue for a return to what I feel are more pastorally appropriate practices in the first place, it could only help my cause…

Can. 964 §1. The proper place to hear sacramental confessions is a church or oratory.
§2. The conference of bishops is to establish norms regarding the confessional; it is to take care, however, that there are always confessionals with a fixed grate between the penitent and the confessor in an open place so that the faithful who wish to can use them freely.
§3. Confessions are not to be heard outside a confessional without a just cause.

 

[FrDavid96]

Really? I would be thrilled to have references on this, as in my new diocese it has been extremely difficult to even find confession times other than ‘through individual appointment’, and none of the churches I have found that do hear confessions have screens. (Whereas my previous diocese was the polar opposite–all churches had regular confession times and they all offered anonymous confession.)

If I could cite canon law to argue for a return to what I feel are more pastorally appropriate practices in the first place, it could only help my cause…

That’s easy.

Can. 964 §1. The proper place to hear sacramental confessions is a church or oratory.

§2. The conference of bishops is to establish norms regarding the confessional; it is to take care, however, that there are always confessionals with a fixed grate between the penitent and the confessor in an open place so that the faithful who wish to can use them freely.

§3. Confessions are not to be heard outside a confessional without a just cause.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3F.HTM

Edit
I posted this before I saw that Phemie had already done so…

 

[YoungTradCath]

The grate is mandated by canon law and no priest can be forced to hear confession face-to-face, so it’s only the penitent’s decision if the priest opts to offer the face-to-face option.

I know, I said that.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Our parish doesn’t have the fixed grate…it’s in a room…but it does allow for anonymous confessions.

What barrier is there between the confessor and penitent in the case of an anonymous confession at your church?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

What barrier is there between the confessor and penitent in the case of an anonymous confession at your church?

It’s like a thick textile hanging…you walk through the stained glass door…and can go behind the “screen” or walk past and sit in the chair…Father can not see you until you sit in the chair. If you choose to be anonymous …there is a kneeler.

 

[YoungTradCath]

It’s like a thick textile hanging…you walk through the stained glass door…and can go behind the “screen” or walk past and sit in the chair…Father can not see you until you sit in the chair. If you choose to be anonymous …there is a kneeler.

Ah, I see.

 

[rhiannonh]

What barrier is there between the confessor and penitent in the case of an anonymous confession at your church?

None because there shouldn’t be (in my opinion) any barriers for anonymous confessing. Confession is what you make it and for me its not just about the sacrament of absolving sins. It more than spiritual direction. It a chance of being able to be completely open and honest about whatever it is that you think you are sinning at and a chance for the priest to guide you into greater relationship with God. If he knows you well then he will know how best to guide you. He will know our sins better than we do and yes that did worry me for a day or two just in case mine didn’t match up to what he thought… but soon forgot and relaxed and got over that. The greater part of confession I suppose in our own ability to be able to talk about our sin enough to be guided well.

The nearest he does to anonymous is that he sits in front facing the Altar so it not face to face as such. Its harder than I would have imagined.

 

[YoungTradCath]

None because there shouldn’t be (in my opinion) any barriers for anonymous confessing. Confession is what you make it and for me its not just about the sacrament of absolving sins. It more than spiritual direction. It a chance of being able to be completely open and honest about whatever it is that you think you are sinning at and a chance for the priest to guide you into greater relationship with God. If he knows you well then he will know how best to guide you. He will know our sins better than we do and yes that did worry me for a day or two just in case mine didn’t match up to what he thought… but soon forgot and relaxed and got over that. The greater part of confession I suppose in our own ability to be able to talk about our sin enough to be guided well.

The nearest he does to anonymous is that he sits in front facing the Altar so it not face to face as such. Its harder than I would have imagined.

Well that’s a nice sentiment but yes, confession is ultimately receiving absolution and then, in turn, forgiveness for your sins. You can receive some nice spiritual direction but if you aren’t absolved and then you die, you’re still in a state of mortal sin, and then you go to hell. Spiritual direction is important, but receiving absolution is the absolute.