Penance/Confession

[notsmart]

I don’t know if this is a good book I have or not, but Its called A Concise History of the Catholic Church revised and expanded edition by Thomas Bokenkotter…

Well, it goes over some of the history of confession and some things seemed strange, like the penance of wearing coarse garments, keeping the hair cropped, abstaining from sex.

And, that at one time confession was only allowed once to a person, and if they sinned after that… left to the mercy of God…

And once a person was enrolled in the ranks of the penetients, they were condemned to a life of inferior status in the Church, could not be admitted into the clerical state, or have marital relations.

But, in the middle ages they loosened that up.

I don’t know why but this is really bothering me.

 

[notsmart]

Oh, I know why its bothering me. The part about how some catholics grew up in fear of going to confession because they knew if they sinned again, they were

 

[jmcrae]

Oh, I know why its bothering me. The part about how some catholics grew up in fear of going to confession because they knew if they sinned again, they were

Fortunately, the Church has already recognized our weakness, and encourages us to go to Confession at least once a year, and if you are willing to put up with the priest saying, “What? you again?” you can even go every day.

It must have been pretty early on that they could only go once, though, because I have a document from the 200s AD where the guy is recommending to go regularly to the same Confessor - so it seems like they must have loosened up that rule pretty early on.

But, yeah - the early penances were quite brutal. St. Margaret of Cortona had a child out of wedlock, and I think her child never saw her in anything but sack-cloth and ashes and begging on the streets, until she was grown up.

 

[BeeSweet]

In the early church it was commonplace for men to delay baptism till they were very sure they’d soon die because there was no sacrament of penance, and once you were baptized, there were no second chances at reconciliation.

You shouldn’t let these things bother you. The church is made up of people, imperfect people, many of whom made mistakes, but all were seeking to do God’s will. I think it’s best we have an honest understanding of the reality of the past so we can better understand why we do things the way we do now as opposed to how we did things then.

At one time the church had women deacons. :yup: Not today. The reason we did then had to do with baptisms. I believe people completely disrobed for baptisms, so men and women had to be baptized separately. A woman could not disrobe completely in front of a man, so there were women deacons to perform baptisms on women. But there are no women deacons today, and you’d be hard pressed to find a naked baptism anywhere in the catholic church I think…

I think all the mistakes that have been made in the past which the church has survived through are just that much more proof of the faith being true. Even we can’t ruin what was made by God!

 

[notsmart]

Fortunately, the Church has already recognized our weakness, and encourages us to go to Confession at least once a year, and if you are willing to put up with the priest saying, “What? you again?” you can even go every day.

It must have been pretty early on that they could only go once, though, because I have a document from the 200s AD where the guy is recommending to go regularly to the same Confessor - so it seems like they must have loosened up that rule pretty early on.

But, yeah - the early penances were quite brutal. St. Margaret of Cortona had a child out of wedlock, and I think her child never saw her in anything but sack-cloth and ashes and begging on the streets, until she was grown up.

This book cites Cyprian on how it worked until the middle of the thrid century.

He cites The Fathers of the Church. St. Cyprian: Letters (Washington, D.C.; Catholic University Press, 1964); Ancient Christian Writers. St. Cyprian: The Lapsed (Westminster, Md.: Newman Press, 1957).

 

[notsmart]

Jmcrae, and Bee Sweet, I appreciate the help here.

I guess I am wondering more about how this happened. How could there be such a negative view on forgiveness? I don’t want to sound rude to protestants who adhere to calvin’s theology, but this sounds a lot like his view about reprobates.

 

[jmcrae]

Jmcrae, and Bee Sweet, I appreciate the help here.

I guess I am wondering more about how this happened. How could there be such a negative view on forgiveness? I don’t want to sound rude to protestants who adhere to calvin’s theology, but this sounds a lot like his view about reprobates.

I think perhaps it was more of a “how could anyone who knows Jesus commit a mortal sin?” Since to need to go to Confession, you have to commit a mortal sin, and it is not possible to commit a mortal sin by accident, or under pressure.

I think it is more a matter of “who the heck would sin on purpose?” more than a negative view of forgiveness.

 

[notsmart]

I think perhaps it was more of a “how could anyone who knows Jesus commit a mortal sin?” Since to need to go to Confession, you have to commit a mortal sin, and it is not possible to commit a mortal sin by accident, or under pressure.

I think it is more a matter of “who the heck would sin on purpose?” more than a negative view of forgiveness.

Quite possibly. But, today looking at a lot of threads, it seems most fall into mortal and venial sin due to ignorance.

I guess I need to take another approach to this in my thoughts.

Its possible many things were not a problem, until they reared their ugly head… if you follow me?

Such as, maybe no one ever considered the implications of X because the early christians never had to deal with X?

I hope that makes some sense?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Jmcrae, and Bee Sweet, I appreciate the help here.

I guess I am wondering more about how this happened. How could there be such a negative view on forgiveness? I don’t want to sound rude to protestants who adhere to calvin’s theology, but this sounds a lot like his view about reprobates.

In the early Church the thinking was that once you were baptized you would never sin again. The Church also knew that this was not likely so she permitted confession (known as “little baptism”) to grant forgiveness, but this was usually done only once. Later confession became a public matter (sin affects the whole body of Christ and should, therefore, be confessed to the whole body was the thinking).

We have the Irish to thank for our current thinking with regard to confession. They made it both a private matter and made it more regular. This appears to be as a result of the Irish interaction with Eastern monks from the Middle East who brought the idea of regular confession to Ireland.

Fr. Bokenkotter’s history is correct.

Deacon Ed

 

[jmcrae]

Quite possibly. But, today looking at a lot of threads, it seems most fall into mortal and venial sin due to ignorance.

I guess I need to take another approach to this in my thoughts.

Its possible many things were not a problem, until they reared their ugly head… if you follow me?

Such as, maybe no one ever considered the implications of X because the early christians never had to deal with X?

I hope that makes some sense?

It makes perfect sense, and I think that’s really about it - the Church developed over time, through its experiences, until today, it has nearly 2,000 years of world-wide experience, and knows better than just about anyone else how it is, with people. Of course, the leading of the Holy Spirit had a lot to do with it, and Jesus’ original teachings, as well.

But I’m glad to be a Catholic today, rather than some time in the past, and I’m sure in another thousand years, more things will have been learned, and the people of that time will be happy not to have lived in our day, too.

 

[jmcrae]

Quite possibly. But, today looking at a lot of threads, it seems most fall into mortal and venial sin due to ignorance.

Venial sin, for sure - but for mortal sin, you have to know ahead of time that you are doing wrong, and choose to do so anyway, of your own free will with no pressure from others or from the circumstances themselves.

 

[notsmart]

It makes perfect sense, and I think that’s really about it - the Church developed over time, through its experiences, until today, it has nearly 2,000 years of world-wide experience, and knows better than just about anyone else how it is, with people. Of course, the leading of the Holy Spirit had a lot to do with it, and Jesus’ original teachings, as well.

But I’m glad to be a Catholic today, rather than some time in the past, and I’m sure in another thousand years, more things will have been learned, and the people of that time will be happy not to have lived in our day, too.

Good point. Surely those who endured this kind of penance with those having good intentions at heart in administering them, will be all the more blessed for their patient endurance of the suffering they endured for Christ. And unintended benefit, I suppose but one that can’t be shaken off lightly.

 

[notsmart]

Venial sin, for sure - but for mortal sin, you have to know ahead of time that you are doing wrong, and choose to do so anyway, of your own free will with no pressure from others or from the circumstances themselves.

Yep. But, when you are told here you are wrong, then you have no excuse to say you did not know. At least, if you are getting correct information that is.

 

[notsmart]

In the early Church the thinking was that once you were baptized you would never sin again. The Church also knew that this was not likely so she permitted confession (known as “little baptism”) to grant forgiveness, but this was usually done only once. Later confession became a public matter (sin affects the whole body of Christ and should, therefore, be confessed to the whole body was the thinking).

We have the Irish to thank for our current thinking with regard to confession. They made it both a private matter and made it more regular. This appears to be as a result of the Irish interaction with Eastern monks from the Middle East who brought the idea of regular confession to Ireland.

Fr. Bokenkotter’s history is correct.

Deacon Ed

Wow. That’s good to know!

I am glad I am not reading a book that is presenting things with any gloss over. I rather have the facts, without any airbrushing.

I am in a primarily Irish dominant parish.



When I am catholic, I want to practice regular confession.

Thank you Deacon Ed

Monica

 

[jmcrae]

Yep. But, when you are told here you are wrong, then you have no excuse to say you did not know. At least, if you are getting correct information that is.

Yes, that’s true. We are also a much more rebellious group of people in our generation than they were back in the Middle Ages or before - they were pretty docile, compared to us. It would not have occurred to them to question and test the rules to the same extent that we do.

 

[BeeSweet]

Quite possibly. But, today looking at a lot of threads, it seems most fall into mortal and venial sin due to ignorance.

I guess I need to take another approach to this in my thoughts.

Its possible many things were not a problem, until they reared their ugly head… if you follow me?

Such as, maybe no one ever considered the implications of X because the early christians never had to deal with X?

I hope that makes some sense?

Actually, you don’t really “fall” into mortal sin. Mortal sin is mortal because you make an informed decision. You’re basically saying to God, “I’ll do as I like, forget what You want!” If you don’t know what God wants, then it’s not mortal. Now even that can get confusing, like when I decided to marry before a Justice of the Peace. I didn’t know that was a no-no, but I was already an apostate at the time. When I came back to the church, I recieved the sacrament of reconciliation and holy Eucharist not knowing that my marriage was something that needed to be confessed and needed to be validated in the church. So I committed sacrilege as well, but I had no idea. I did eventually learn though. But really, for a sin to be truly mortal, it is done with full knowledge and consent of the will. That is why it is so much worse than venial sin. And it is why venial sin, when not corrected by the sacrament of penance can lead us to complacency and eventually we can start to justify committing mortal sin.